Tuesdays: 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EST)
EPISODE SUMMARY:
Providing performance feedback is one of the most challenging tasks leaders face. Feedback often sparks frustration and fear for both leaders and their teams. Why? Because there is a disconnect between what leaders think they are communicating and what employees receive. It's rooted in neuroscience and psychology research that we don't always apply effectively in the moment.
EPISODE SUMMARY:
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
There are a lot of moving parts to provide effective feedback, including the content, valence, purpose of the message, the feedback recipient's characteristics, and the feedback provider's characteristics. In their new book, Performance Feedback Strategies, published by the Association for Talent Development (ATD), Drs. Nowack and Mashihi introduce a model of performance feedback coaching for leaders with structured exercises, techniques, and tips to help leaders become better performance coaches. After over a decade spent developing, testing, and refining their model with leaders around the world, they are now ready to share their four-part Performance Feedback Coaching Model, based on research in neuroscience and psychology, to help us all become better at providing performance feedback that is received well and translates into real behavior change.
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ABOUT OUR GUESTS:
Dr. Kenneth M. Nowack is a licensed psychologist and Senior Research Officer of Envisia Learning, Inc., a global consultancy specializing in assessments and technology platforms. He serves on Daniel Goleman’s Consortium for Research on Emotional Intelligence in Organizations and recently served as Editor for the Consulting Psychology Journal. He is also a Fellow of the American Psychological Association through Division 13 (Society of Consulting Psychology).
Sandra Mashihi, PhD is an organizational psychologist and executive coach with over 20 years of experience helping leaders and teams thrive through customized leadership development solutions. As the founder of Spectra Coaching, she works with executives, emerging leaders, and organizations to unlock leadership potential, enhance team dynamics, and drive measurable change. She was previously an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine Graziadio Business School and Director of Coaching Services at Envisia Learning.
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
www.gotowerscope.com
www.envisialearning.com
www.linkedin.com/in/kennethnowack
www.spectracoaching.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandramashihi/
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Feedback-Strategies-Successful-Behavior/dp/1957157860
www.envisialearning.com
www.linkedin.com/in/kennethnowack
www.spectracoaching.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandramashihi/
https://www.td.org/product/book--performance-feedback-strategies/112504
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Feedback-Strategies-Successful-Behavior/dp/1957157860
#Feedback #360DegreeFeedback #leadership #PerformanceFeedback #LeadershipSkills #LeadershipDevelopment #TheHardSkills
On this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu explores the critical leadership challenge of delivering performance feedback in a way that builds trust, psychological safety, and real growth, featuring insights from Drs. Ken Nowak and Sandra Mashihi. They introduce a modern, research-based framework that transforms feedback from rigid performance evaluations into ongoing, development-focused coaching tailored to individual employee needs. Leaders who invest in this relational approach not only foster stronger engagement and motivation but also enhance long-term productivity and ease the burden of constant supervision.
In this segment of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu, Dr. Ken Nowak, and Dr. Sandra Mashihi dive deeper into the science of behavior change, emphasizing that sustainable performance improvement requires deliberate, ongoing practice — not just one-off feedback. They introduce the Johari Window and the Identity-Reputation model to highlight the importance of closing the gap between how leaders see themselves and how others perceive them. With newer generations craving mentorship, professional development, and feedback into their blind spots, leaders must evolve into performance coaches if they want to retain top talent and build thriving teams.
In this part of The Hard Skills, Drs. Sandra Mashihi and Ken Nowak introduce their four-quadrant Performance Feedback Coaching Model, which categorizes employees based on performance and interpersonal skills to tailor coaching strategies effectively. They stress the importance of recognizing true high potentials — those who excel both technically and relationally — while addressing the risks of "toxic performers" and low-skill, low-engagement individuals through decisive feedback and performance management. Leaders are encouraged to differentiate between coaching to enhance and coaching to exit, ensuring that time and energy are invested wisely to build high-performing, psychologically safe teams.
In the closing segment of The Hard Skills, Drs. Ken Nowak and Sandra Mashihi stress that coaching struggling employees must be aligned with HR’s disciplinary frameworks, with a clear focus on tangible behavior change within set timelines. They also emphasize that leaders must tailor their feedback approach to individual employee needs, recognizing that what motivates one person may not work for another — especially when addressing long-neglected toxic performers or nurturing high-potential talent. Dr. Mira Brancu wraps up by encouraging leaders to take immediate small actions based on these insights to strengthen their feedback, leadership, and team development practices.
00:00:50.200 --> 00:01:08.250 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills show where we take a deep dive into the most challenging soft skills required to navigate leadership, uncertainty, complexities and change today and into the future. I'm your host, Dr. Mira Branku, psychologist, leadership consultant and founder of Towerscope.
00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:19.430 Mira Brancu: A little while back some of you might remember a fantastic episode I had with Dr. Sarah Porter, who shared so many great tips on how to give and receive feedback with finesse.
00:01:19.730 --> 00:01:26.160 Mira Brancu: Feedback giving is probably one of the top challenges. Leaders experience and request help with today.
00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:35.550 Mira Brancu: And today you're in for a real treat because we're going to take another deep dive into feedback giving, and this time
00:01:35.780 --> 00:01:42.529 Mira Brancu: focus specifically on discussing the dreaded performance feedback with employees
00:01:42.890 --> 00:01:49.669 Mira Brancu: providing performance feedback usually sparks, frustration and fear for both the leaders and their teams, their team members. Right?
00:01:49.910 --> 00:02:02.540 Mira Brancu: And we're going to talk about why, from the perspective of what the research on neuroscience and psychology says and learn a new framework based on a decade of research and application.
00:02:02.880 --> 00:02:21.179 Mira Brancu: And it's really great for season seven's focus on navigating, unhealthy workplace environments. Because if you struggle with performance feedback giving. It's going to feel like an unhealthy work environment for you and for them. Right? So whether you're a leader managing a team.
00:02:21.390 --> 00:02:35.770 Mira Brancu: a coach, or simply trying to support your colleagues. This conversation is for you now, before we get started, this is yet another reminder that our workshop, redefining and developing your leadership. Identity in 2025
00:02:35.900 --> 00:02:51.389 Mira Brancu: is coming up on May 21st registration is due. May first, st the workshop includes a leadership assessment, several tools to help you explore how to apply your leadership, style and identity to current leadership decisions and transitions and people management.
00:02:51.570 --> 00:03:01.920 Mira Brancu: and knowing yourself and your style does have a direct impact on how you can effectively give feedback and how to do it in a way that is natural to your strengths and challenges
00:03:02.230 --> 00:03:09.770 Mira Brancu: which is going to be discussed in this workshop, and it serves as one of the most critical cornerstones for all of your leadership decisions.
00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:20.129 Mira Brancu: challenges and successes. And we're gonna make some of those connections today as well. So as a reminder, registration is due, may first.st
00:03:20.260 --> 00:03:23.200 Mira Brancu: And now let me introduce our guests today.
00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:34.849 Mira Brancu: Drs. Kenneth M. Noak and Sandra Mashihi. They're authors of performance feedback Strategies. It's published by the Association for Talent Development or Atd.
00:03:35.210 --> 00:04:04.249 Mira Brancu: Dr. Nowak is a licensed psychologist and Senior research Officer of Envisia Learning Incorporated, a Global Consultancy specializing in assessments and technology platforms. He serves on the Daniel Goldman's Consortium for Research on Emotional Intelligence and Organizations, and recently served as editor for the Consulting Psychology Journal, where I also served under him as one of the associate editors which was
00:04:04.768 --> 00:04:12.029 Mira Brancu: fabulous, and he's also a fellow of the American Psychological Association through Division 13.
00:04:12.450 --> 00:04:31.769 Mira Brancu: You might also remember him from a previous episode we did, on the power of resilience. He applies neuroscience and emotional intelligence research to many leadership issues. And today it happens to be about feedback. But if you read his work, he applies it to lots of other things as well.
00:04:32.210 --> 00:04:42.519 Mira Brancu: Now, Dr. Mashihi is an organizational psychologist and executive coach with over 20 years of experience, helping leaders and teams thrive through customized leadership development solutions.
00:04:42.710 --> 00:04:44.950 Mira Brancu: As the founder of spectra coaching.
00:04:45.070 --> 00:04:53.050 Mira Brancu: She works with executives, emerging leaders and organizations to unlock leadership, potential enhance team dynamics and drive measurable change.
00:04:53.440 --> 00:05:03.620 Mira Brancu: She was previously an adjunct professor at Pepperdine Graziado Business School, and the director of Coaching services at Nvisia, learning
00:05:03.730 --> 00:05:06.829 Mira Brancu: so welcome to the show Ken and Sandra.
00:05:10.550 --> 00:05:16.620 Ken Nowack: Thank you, Mira. Lovely to be here with you again, and have my colleague Sandra, with me as well.
00:05:17.140 --> 00:05:25.909 Mira Brancu: Great welcome welcome, so very excited to have you. And let's start with the basics. Right? Performance feedback.
00:05:26.380 --> 00:05:28.460 Mira Brancu: What's the definition of performance? Feedback.
00:05:28.980 --> 00:05:57.000 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah, great thanks, Mira, thanks for having us. Performance. Feedback is the process by which in this case, we're going to say a leader and an employee, because that's what we're referring to. It's a process by which a leader is giving feedback to an employee on some mutually agreed upon expectation or standard. Same thing goes with performance management systems. Performance feedback is about getting people to those goals. Now, there's a difference
00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:21.999 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: between performance feedback and performance management and what we want to do is shed light on the difference between performance feedback coaching as a philosophy, and in addition to what performance management systems can use. So traditional performance management systems are about compliance, annual reviews, assessments that say, this employee meets expectations or
00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:33.139 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: exceeds expectations. It's very formal. It's very structured it does. It's missing the human element. And as a coach that's worked in organizations for
00:06:33.310 --> 00:06:54.970 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: a decade long, I see this over and over again. I see employees complain about the performance review conversations, and then I also hear about leaders complain about it. So there is a gap between both parts and performance. Feedback is about and performance. Feedback coaching is about getting leaders to become coaches in the performance review conversation.
00:06:55.060 --> 00:07:03.440 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: It's ongoing. It's forward focused. It's development focused. And and the purpose is really to help employees
00:07:04.310 --> 00:07:13.970 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: get them to where they need to be. But through a relationship with trust, psychological safety mutually agreed upon goals.
00:07:14.730 --> 00:07:43.230 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: A frequent amount of ongoing real time feedback. That's another thing that's missing. A lot of employees don't have that real time feedback. And it's really about getting the leader to meet the employee where they're at and based on their needs. There is no one. Size fits all approach to leadership, as you know. I'm sure, in your experience as well. So same thing with feedback. It's about giving feedback, based on so many different factors of
00:07:43.230 --> 00:07:47.879 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: employee, their motivation, their interpersonal skills
00:07:49.160 --> 00:08:12.269 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: and a bunch of different other factors, their commitment, their engagement. So we look at everything, and then we help leaders package feedback in such a way so that it lands for the employee, and they feel comfortable to receive it, and it actually enhances their performance and helps them thrive. So you know, for instance, what we'll say is, there's a requirement for what a feedback conversation should have
00:08:12.350 --> 00:08:20.390 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: it should have for the, for the feedback recipients, or the employee to feel like they understand the feedback.
00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:36.819 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: A lot of employees don't understand what the feedback is. They say I still don't know where I stand. I still don't know what the feedback is. The second requirement is, the employees should feel like they can accept the feedback they need to at the very least see the feedback as valuable.
00:08:37.350 --> 00:08:46.199 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: and then the 3rd requirement is they need to feel like they need. The the employee should have some agreement or commitment to action.
00:08:46.660 --> 00:08:49.280 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So when these 3 are in place.
00:08:49.460 --> 00:09:00.150 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: You have a conversation that's moving forward and helping the employees on their development. It's very. It's about growth and development and mutual trust.
00:09:00.150 --> 00:09:24.779 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: And there are a lot of moving parts to performance feedback coaching the recipient who the leader is, how they're perceived? Are they perceived as judgmental? Then is the employee ready to receive the feedback? Or are they just passive, passively saying, okay to whatever they hear? And then there is the actual message, the content, the Valence the intent. So there's a lot of moving parts and our goal, Ken and I, we got together after years of coaching.
00:09:24.880 --> 00:09:37.130 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: We want to help leaders package their feedback in such a way that it actually lands. And they're creating a sense of psychological safety for the employee to feel like there is a two-way connection.
00:09:37.780 --> 00:09:59.576 Mira Brancu: Let me ask you, so everything that you shared sounds exhausting right? And leaders who are very task oriented. Very results focused are going to be drawn to performance management more. And, you know, like,
00:10:00.914 --> 00:10:05.145 Mira Brancu: evaluation across a certain metrics, you know.
00:10:05.930 --> 00:10:26.865 Mira Brancu: have you done this with, you know, sufficient efficiency. All of that stuff, right? And when they hear the the way that you describe performance feedback, which is very relational, they're gonna say, like, as very soft skills. So of course, I have you on the show because I'm very interested in soft skills. But they're gonna
00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:48.529 Mira Brancu: automatically say, Oh, my God, that sounds exhausting! Why would I ever want to do that right? I mean, that's that requires so much additional set of skills just to get somebody to do their job. So what what would you say to someone who's much more task oriented? Why, it's worth putting in all of the time and energy
00:10:48.650 --> 00:10:57.380 Mira Brancu: to to focus on motivation, the relationship, psychological safety, growth, development. All of that stuff.
00:10:58.250 --> 00:11:27.620 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: That's a great question. And you know, just just so, you know, kind of my background. I worked for years with sales agents that were very cut to the chase and task oriented. And it's like, you know, I don't have time for the fluff and the nonsense and all of that just, you know. Say it as it is, that's what I want to hear. So I come from that world. I understand that that mentality and it does sound exhausting when you think about oh, my God! There's so much to having these conversations.
00:11:27.640 --> 00:11:57.329 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: The conversations don't have to be long and rigorous, and this back and forth thing. It 1st starts with a mindset around. Let me tune into my feedback recipient that employee what is their need. Once I know their need. Then I can tailor a conversation in real time, like. For instance, I caught you in that last meeting. Here's some feedback a few minutes, so it's a little bit of an investment upfront, but once they identify who the employee is, what their need is.
00:11:57.330 --> 00:12:12.310 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: it should it should minimize the investment in the long run, because now they have an employee that's engaged and thriving as opposed to not giving feedback and just doing those, you know, basic expectations. The standards
00:12:12.310 --> 00:12:27.439 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: based on the metrics. And then in the long run, you have an employee that's not really bought in, not really aligned. And they're not thriving so. And we see that all the time in organizations, so it can be. It can be simple and succinct.
00:12:27.570 --> 00:12:29.689 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: I want to clarify that.
00:12:29.690 --> 00:12:31.589 Mira Brancu: Yeah, ken, what would you add to that.
00:12:32.290 --> 00:12:59.050 Ken Nowack: I don't know if I'd add anything. It's a really good way of describing things. But there is a return on investment today. Research really suggests that employees are looking for very pointed feedback, if not just career oriented about how to improve and sharpen their skills. So a lot of feedback's not corrective. A lot of it's developmental. And I think all of us that are listening. If we had one person in our life that we totally loved and trusted.
00:12:59.050 --> 00:13:25.209 Ken Nowack: That could give us a wild tip to be a little bit better in one particular area. I think we're all ears. We're all open to do that. So we think of performance coaching as a mindset. That most leaders, when they wake up in the morning are thinking about their role of helping to enhance day-to-day productivity hopefully the engagement of employees and do it in a manner that creates a culture of safety. And as Sandra mentioned, psychological well-being.
00:13:25.210 --> 00:13:31.089 Ken Nowack: so that's really the angle. It's not always corrective. It's not always negative, doesn't have to be really complicated and complex.
00:13:31.580 --> 00:13:40.850 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I, I would say, you know, in addition, when you focus on
00:13:41.524 --> 00:13:53.969 Mira Brancu: performance management, which is like to a certain metric that the organization has developed, or you as a leader, have developed. Like you want to meet a certain
00:13:54.110 --> 00:13:57.909 Mira Brancu: number of sales. For example, you know, within a certain period of time
00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:23.370 Mira Brancu: with certain number of clients. That that metric isn't always exciting to people like it's exciting to some people like, if you're super achievement oriented. And you're like really bought into. I feel excited when I, you know, meet a certain metric or supersede. That's enough for you. But as you probably have seen. If you've been in a leadership role long enough.
00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:35.010 Mira Brancu: different people are motivated by different things, and not everybody is excited about simply going for you know a certain number and
00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:36.990 Mira Brancu: knowing
00:14:37.110 --> 00:14:44.960 Mira Brancu: how to motivate different kinds of people in different ways, and being able to tap into that and helping them take ownership.
00:14:45.774 --> 00:14:53.360 Mira Brancu: Eventually does reduce the workload off of you as a leader, because then you're not pushing, pushing, pushing somebody up a hill
00:14:53.916 --> 00:15:15.929 Mira Brancu: or struggling to figure out why they don't get it. When you tell them that you have not met the metric, or why they don't care, or they're not excited as you about it. Right? There's a reason. It's because you're working with humans. We don't always make sense right? We have different interests, different goals, different motivations, and
00:15:16.592 --> 00:15:18.829 Mira Brancu: some people are driven by impact.
00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:45.980 Mira Brancu: And if you can translate, you know how you sort of turn those metrics into how somebody, you know imagines them making an impact. That makes a difference for them. Right? It's basically just understanding what drives behavior. And I think we're going to get it going to get a lot more into this in a moment. But we are reaching an ad break. So we're going to take a break. And when we come back we're going to get into that kind of
00:15:45.980 --> 00:16:10.589 Mira Brancu: area around real behavior change. Okay? So you're listening to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guests today. Doctors Ken Nowak and Sandra Mashihi, authors of performance feedback strategies. We air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. Eastern at that time. If you're listening like, literally right now, you can find us live streaming on Linkedin, Youtube, several other locations@talkradio.nyc.
00:16:10.700 --> 00:16:13.269 Mira Brancu: And we'll be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:17:55.880 --> 00:18:04.129 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with my guest today Dr. Noak and Mashihi, and we're talking about performance feedback and
00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:25.579 Mira Brancu: Sandra. You, I believe, had started listing out kind of the requirements, the ingredients for good feedback receiving how somebody can take it in understanding. The feedback is one you mentioned. Accepting the feedback is the second, and actually agreeing with and connecting with the feedback.
00:18:25.870 --> 00:18:32.709 Mira Brancu: Are those the key ingredients for good behavior change? Are there others that we're missing.
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:57.529 Ken Nowack: Maybe I'll jump in. I think one of the things I'll mention Mira, is that Sandra and I have actually an article under Peer review right now with a cute title called Wet Babies only are the only ones who like change. So at the end of the day, if you think of the terminal goal of feedback is really a prayer and a hope that people will take it in and commit to some action.
00:18:57.550 --> 00:19:20.260 Ken Nowack: And we know from brain science. That habit change is easy to start things, but really difficult to sustain it over time. So think of complex behaviors that as coaches and leaders, we're working with every day. Most of us just don't wake up spontaneously and think I'm going to be a better listener. I want to be more participative with my team.
00:19:20.260 --> 00:19:31.149 Ken Nowack: So when they would employ Dr. Mashihi and yourself as a coach, you're really looking at ways to find the crease with these individuals to say, what could be you be doing
00:19:31.150 --> 00:19:55.850 Ken Nowack: more or lesser differently, to become more effective? And we're hoping that the feedback sticks with them in the spirit of development kind of the euphemism of feed forward. Here's a tip. Here's a suggestion. Here's a technique that if you could tweak what you're doing sometimes it's stop doing start doing. But at the end of the day, if we can help you to do that, brain science is really interesting. It really suggests that
00:19:55.850 --> 00:20:03.659 Ken Nowack: I could ask all the listeners right now to write their autograph, sign your name your signature with your non-dominant hand.
00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:29.920 Ken Nowack: and then practice with your dominant hand. You'd find a few things just reflectively. That's hard to do takes a lot of time, and if you're like me, the quality or the output isn't really as good as your dominant hand. But if I could peer into your brain, if I could have you do that 6 to 8 times in repetition, we'd actually be able to see some changes at a neural level, and we have a fancy word for that called neuroplasticity.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:51.970 Ken Nowack: But we really need to sustain deliberate practice in coaching and training on average for complicated skills that we're dealing with and talking about today on average 45 to 90 days. So the idea of deliberate practice, keeping it up, doing it over and over until it becomes automatic, is the daunting part of leaders giving feedback.
00:20:51.970 --> 00:21:09.870 Ken Nowack: disappearing from a check-in or a meeting. Or if you're in a global workforce, we may be on a zoom call, or whatever you're using as a platform today and just hoping that people take in the feedback, and will practice long and hard enough until they can write their signature with their non-dominant hand until it feels pretty comfortable.
00:21:10.190 --> 00:21:12.389 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I, I would think that
00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:20.760 Mira Brancu: a lot of leaders think well, if I just say it once they should be able to do it.
00:21:20.930 --> 00:21:32.160 Mira Brancu: which is ridiculous, because that doesn't apply to you. It doesn't apply to me. So why would that be the case? Right? In fact, the reality is
00:21:33.860 --> 00:21:47.140 Mira Brancu: The the 1st part is like the buy in right. I often say when when we work on change management, if you're not bored. They're not on board. If you're not bored with your message, they're probably not hearing it enough.
00:21:47.260 --> 00:22:08.079 Mira Brancu: and you know it does take a lot more time than you realize in a lot of patients. And it's it's not because people are not listening or not caring what you have to say. It's because it takes an awful lot to change behavior, you know, and you hear one part, and then you try that part, and then you hear the other part, and you try the other part, and it takes a lot to put all of that together.
00:22:08.370 --> 00:22:29.109 Mira Brancu: So I really appreciate. You know, that piece I also want to share. Here, you 2 wrote this awesome article a clear window into performance. And the reason I love this article is you connected 2 different frameworks.
00:22:29.300 --> 00:22:36.080 Mira Brancu: One is the Jahari window, and I'd love for you to sort of explain that piece for people who don't know what that is.
00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:40.439 Mira Brancu: And then the other is the trait reputation, identity lens.
00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:44.919 Mira Brancu: And it's a it was a very unique way to think about
00:22:45.260 --> 00:22:58.209 Mira Brancu: performance, coaching feedback in terms of what is known to others that is known to you, and what is unknown to you, that you're working on, that somebody else might see and could help you with.
00:23:00.140 --> 00:23:02.202 Mira Brancu: Any of you want to take that one.
00:23:02.790 --> 00:23:28.419 Ken Nowack: Yeah, just a comment. And Sandra feel free to jump in as well. I think again, when we think about feedback, it's really helping to illuminate what is termed the Blind Spot, or the hidden spot in the Johari window. So it's really helping us to see the world through the eyes of others, and I think I've shared this with you before. Mira and Sandra knows this, but for the last 20 plus years my wife and I have been involved in raising service dogs for the blind.
00:23:28.460 --> 00:23:35.579 Ken Nowack: and it's a great metaphor that all of us from time to time could use a service dog to see the impact of our behavior.
00:23:35.580 --> 00:24:00.040 Ken Nowack: and to know how we're perceived, and sometimes how we think we come off and come across. There's a huge gap between how others experience us. So those are the words that a lot of folks, Robert Hogan, with Hogan assessment systems has popularized. But this idea of the unique areas that you know about yourself, that maybe you haven't shared, or others don't have an opportunity to visit and see.
00:24:00.040 --> 00:24:02.890 Ken Nowack: It's your identity. It's how you see yourself.
00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:26.860 Ken Nowack: But what's written in the bathroom walls about you, or what people say behind your back? Or when we close down this, podcast if you were to write me or call me go, hey, Ken? I don't know if you were aware of this, but you did this or that. That would be a blind spot that would be how you've experienced me. We refer to that as our reputation. So this gap is something that Sandra and I and all coaches really work towards is narrowing that gap
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:43.780 Ken Nowack: to really help individuals identify what they're doing well, so they can help accentuate and leverage their strengths, but also illuminate the guide dog analogy of maybe what we're not doing well that we could commit to if we're sufficiently motivated to improve.
00:24:43.780 --> 00:25:10.270 Ken Nowack: So that's sort of the merger of the old Jahari window kind of a wonderful feedback model, transposed with a newer language around identity and reputation. And the area that we're at Overlaps, where we all see the world through the same lens and agree that. Yep, this is what I think I'm doing. I'm really a bad driver, and if you go with me anywhere. You'd probably validate that to say Ken gets lost everywhere. We all know that. So it's an adventure.
00:25:10.970 --> 00:25:22.800 Mira Brancu: Curious. With the newer generation. Gen. Z. Mostly right? Part. Also part millennials.
00:25:24.490 --> 00:25:32.920 Mira Brancu: I think we're hearing that they really want a lot more mentorship and development professional development support.
00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:42.650 Mira Brancu: They want people to pour into them. They want to grow. And and they're drawn to organizations that offer that, and
00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:46.059 Mira Brancu: supervisors that are also willing to mentor and coach.
00:25:46.510 --> 00:25:47.880 Mira Brancu: Not just supervise.
00:25:48.090 --> 00:25:54.559 Mira Brancu: And so I'm I'm sort of curious. Have you seen that trend? And if so
00:25:55.980 --> 00:26:01.509 Mira Brancu: any information, any research on whether they actually want
00:26:01.710 --> 00:26:09.019 Mira Brancu: to know what their reputation is. They want the feedback into the blind spots, or they just want to
00:26:09.570 --> 00:26:12.415 Mira Brancu: develop without knowing the blind spots.
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:18.300 Mira Brancu: And, Sandra, you're on mute.
00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:20.900 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Sorry.
00:26:20.970 --> 00:26:41.799 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Sorry about that. Can you hear me now? Yes, okay, great. Yes. We definitely see this pattern. The younger generation does definitely want career enhancement. They want employability security as opposed to job security. You know, the older generation just wanted to stay at a job and climb up the ladder, and then you have the younger generation that wants that
00:26:41.800 --> 00:26:54.130 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: security of if I go to another organization, I have the skill set, the competencies, the know-how to do that. And I want my leader to invest in my career and in my aspirations.
00:26:54.130 --> 00:27:10.990 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So we definitely see that. And the younger generation is actually more open to the process of being coached. So we're finding that there is definitely this desire for that. They actually expect the leader to be like a coach for them.
00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:39.269 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: and what leaders are seeing is, well, they're too needy. They're too entitled, you know. It's I wasn't led this way. Why do I have to do it. If I'm you know I'm doing just right. Why do I have to do it for them? If I wasn't led this way? So there's definitely this new generation needs more once is more self aware, and is seeking to be coached. So. Yes, they are. They are tuned into the Blind Spot. Ken, do you have any research around that that we can actually share.
00:27:39.550 --> 00:28:03.270 Ken Nowack: Well, I think, as you're highlighting before we go on a break, we're seeing a change in technology. We're tethered 24, 7 to our tablets, our wrists, everything that's in our pocket that blurs the boundaries of am I at work? Am I away from work and the psychological contract? I think, as you're hinting at has really changed from, as you labeled it, job security to employability, security.
00:28:03.290 --> 00:28:16.090 Ken Nowack: Everybody's insecure in a free agent. So these are some of the drivers we're seeing that makes millennials. And some of the younger workers today more fastidious to want feedback that helps them grow and develop.
00:28:16.450 --> 00:28:19.660 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And that alone makes the case
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:22.410 Mira Brancu: that if you want to retain great people.
00:28:22.410 --> 00:28:22.860 Ken Nowack: Hmm.
00:28:22.860 --> 00:28:31.239 Mira Brancu: You're gonna have to become a performance feedback coach. You're gonna have to know this stuff right? So
00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:46.050 Mira Brancu: great timing we're reaching an ad break. When we come back we'll get into your 4 stage model for how to apply these skills. Right? You are listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today. Doctors Ken Nowak and Dr.
00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:51.009 Mira Brancu: Sandra Mashihi, authors of performance feedback strategies.
00:28:51.260 --> 00:28:53.169 Mira Brancu: and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:30:25.650 --> 00:30:32.450 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guests today doctors Ken Nowak and Sandra Mashihi.
00:30:32.820 --> 00:30:42.529 Mira Brancu: and we are now moving into the performance. Feedback coaching model. There's 4 parts to this in your book.
00:30:42.650 --> 00:30:45.749 Mira Brancu: Let's let's start with the first.st
00:30:46.300 --> 00:30:54.700 Mira Brancu: What is the 1st part of. And, by the way, listen to what it's called performance feedback coaching model.
00:30:55.020 --> 00:31:01.970 Mira Brancu: Right? It's a coaching model. It's not a performance management model. So what's the 1st
00:31:02.270 --> 00:31:05.630 Mira Brancu: step or start of this model. The 1st stage.
00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:12.819 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah, great question. First, st I'd I'd like to share. It's a 4 quadrant model based on 2 spectrums.
00:31:13.530 --> 00:31:23.039 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So 2 very important lenses through which we're evaluating others. One is their how they play well with others, their interpersonal skills.
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:29.389 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: How much can they get along with peers, other employees their directs?
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:39.209 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Or are they creating a toxic environment where they cannot get along with others? And then the other part we're looking at is their overall performance.
00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:43.460 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: their skills, knowledge, abilities, technical skills.
00:31:44.060 --> 00:32:03.859 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So we look at those 2 aspects. Those are the lenses for which we create this 4 quadrant model based on 2 different spectrums. So we have the high high which is high interpersonal skills and high overall performance skills. And those are the high potentials, or we like to call them the star players.
00:32:04.530 --> 00:32:07.919 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: And these are individuals that are getting along with others.
00:32:08.410 --> 00:32:09.880 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: They're engaged.
00:32:10.010 --> 00:32:30.839 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: They're performing well, and we highlight on this group. And we have a lot of information in the book about strategies with this group. A lot of leaders forget about this group, or they assume because they're performing fine, then they don't need to attend to them. So that's an assumption that they make. And it's a fallacy.
00:32:30.840 --> 00:32:44.590 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: because those are the people that they want to keep, especially with this newer generation that's always looking to go somewhere else. So they want to keep those their goal should be to keep those individuals engaged and thriving.
00:32:45.260 --> 00:32:59.420 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So, coach we call the the approach we use with that group is called performance acceleration. We're accelerating their performance even better than how it's been. So we'll look at their career drivers.
00:32:59.590 --> 00:33:25.589 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: What do they want to be? Do they want to be a leader, a specialist. Do they want to be an entrepreneur? We help them dissect all of that. We help them identify their signature strengths, and then the feedback conversations look something like, I don't know if you've heard of stay interviews. But basically, what is it going to get you to stay in the organization the next 5 years. What makes you thrive?
00:33:25.590 --> 00:33:40.640 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: What drains your energy? So leaders have to have these kinds of conversations with high potentials to really get them to the next level, so that quadrant is really about leveraging signature strengths, and enhancing their engagement and performance.
00:33:42.810 --> 00:33:52.009 Mira Brancu: And what I love about this is that you highlighted that it's the high performance.
00:33:52.260 --> 00:33:56.400 Mira Brancu: high interpersonal, that are the high potentials.
00:33:56.540 --> 00:34:04.740 Mira Brancu: Often, I think many organizations still make the mistake that if you're a high performing person you're a high, potential person.
00:34:05.370 --> 00:34:07.159 Mira Brancu: so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
00:34:07.490 --> 00:34:26.120 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah, great. So that leads me into the next quadrant, which is the high. I'm sorry high performance, but the low interpersonal. So we like to call these people the toxic performers or other authors of Harvard Business Review magazines called them competent jerks.
00:34:26.120 --> 00:34:50.800 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: and basically that they're people that do great. They perform really really well, but they can't get along with others, either. They're too abrupt, too direct a jerk. Have no empathy not concerned for others. Dismiss others. So there's a whole range of these individuals starting from people that just don't understand that they have that impact to people that are just literally, clinically narcissistic.
00:34:50.850 --> 00:35:13.810 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So there is a whole spectrum of these individuals that a good leader will tune in and see. Okay, how much is this person likely to change. What is the magnitude of change? And the coaching approach that we would use with these individuals is called performance management. And basically, what we're doing is helping them see the impact of their behaviors.
00:35:13.810 --> 00:35:37.889 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: and we're helping them identify their blind spots. So some leaders are open to change. And they want to know, even though it's hard to change, they they at least want to know. Some don't even want to hear it. I work with a lot of these kinds of toxic performers, and you sit with them in a 360 review, and they don't even want to hear about the impact. Do they justify their behaviors. They don't want to know who said what they don't.
00:35:37.970 --> 00:35:40.339 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: They have no interest in changing.
00:35:40.610 --> 00:36:06.710 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So that is actually an issue with a lot of organizations because they keep them because they're performing. And they're adding a lot of revenue. But at the same time they're creating a toxic environment which obviously leads to this contagion of, you know effect. And you have other employees and peers that can't get along with this individual. So in the long run, it's actually going to decrease revenue.
00:36:07.220 --> 00:36:16.520 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So there's this fallacy of organizations thinking they're investing in these like you, said high potentials. There, we I'm not sure if they're high potentials if they can't get along with others.
00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:18.384 Mira Brancu: That's right. And
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:25.600 Mira Brancu: I wonder if you can speak to
00:36:26.020 --> 00:36:44.719 Mira Brancu: how leaders know when to cut their losses, you know, because a lot of times you've got folks who are like, but you know, we're giving them a chance, and they're such great performers like we want to give them some time to learn how to XY, and Z. And you started speaking about this like
00:36:44.870 --> 00:36:47.729 Mira Brancu: some of this is assessing coachability.
00:36:47.910 --> 00:36:53.450 Mira Brancu: Are they willing to learn, adjust, grow? Are they interested? So what are the signs
00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:57.249 Mira Brancu: that it's time to cut your losses? And how long do you give it.
00:36:57.910 --> 00:37:04.090 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah, great. Well, a lot of these individuals might go through a 360 program. They might go through a coaching program.
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:21.800 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: you know. Are they engaging in some level or commitment of wanting to change? That's what I would say. And then, you know, if we take them through a 360 process, I think they should be reassessed. Now, what's the impact? Has change been made? Are people perceiving them differently?
00:37:21.910 --> 00:37:46.499 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: You know people might see them as very direct cut to the chase. They have that style. But there's been some relationship built where they actually have shown that they are showing some empathy. Okay? So we'll keep those right. They just have this kind of direct style, and people have an understanding of them. It's those individuals that don't care to change don't want to change, and they keep justifying their behaviors where it's like.
00:37:46.640 --> 00:37:51.020 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: you know, they've been through coaching. Now, what's next? You know.
00:37:51.310 --> 00:38:01.869 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. And it can become a a weed that eventually grows across your garden and kills all of your other beautiful flowers. Right? So.
00:38:01.870 --> 00:38:02.290 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: That's.
00:38:02.752 --> 00:38:06.917 Mira Brancu: It is important for leaders to track where they're
00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:20.150 Mira Brancu: toxic performers are. And you know, I often what one of the 1st questions I ask myself, when people contact me for coaching or for team development is is this
00:38:20.340 --> 00:38:35.849 Mira Brancu: is this a team development or leadership development issue? Or is it a management issue? And I ask a lot of questions to ask about coachability. How well do they receive feedback? What do they do with the feedback after you give them the feedback. You know what happens after the feedback
00:38:36.090 --> 00:38:44.119 Mira Brancu: and based on that. It gives me a sense like, are they really ready, you know, for coaching or leadership, development or anything, or are. They
00:38:44.620 --> 00:39:02.960 Mira Brancu: have no interest. They're just pretending, or they feel like I'm good enough that I'm just going to be kept, you know. So that's a really good question. Let's look at the other quadrants, which in some cases could be equally challenging lower performance.
00:39:03.699 --> 00:39:06.330 Mira Brancu: In in either way. We'd love to hear more about those.
00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:19.699 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah. So now we go into the quadrant of the individuals that have lower performance. But they have great interpersonal skills highly engaged. Get along with others good team players. They're eager and hungry to learn.
00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:34.170 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: and we call them the lovable learners. They just have some kind of performance issue. So the performance. The coaching approach we use with these individuals is called performance enhancement. And it's really about troubleshooting.
00:39:34.170 --> 00:39:54.709 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: What's your approach with troubleshooting the knowledge skills or deficits that they need to work on, so we help them ask questions about. Have they been previously trained on it, you know? Is it something that they can learn. Is it something that they're motivated to learn? So we help them go through a troubleshooting process. And really, it's about helping them
00:39:54.940 --> 00:40:18.060 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: target specific areas that they could be coached on. Usually with these individuals, it's within a few months they learn it. And they're they're okay. Because what's more important is that they're eager and they're hungry to want to learn, and that outweighs the the performance issue if it's something that's within their realm of ability to work on.
00:40:18.060 --> 00:40:33.920 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: So it could also be something related to interpersonal skills like executive presence or presentation skills. Or, you know, some kind of communication skill. But at least they're not individuals that are missing. The interpersonal aspect of creating a toxic environment.
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:47.399 Mira Brancu: I wonder? This is the same question I asked, you know, for the last one, but for a different reason. How do you know when to cut your losses with someone that is eager to learn
00:40:47.560 --> 00:40:59.689 Mira Brancu: takes feedback well, but doesn't seem to be able to turn your feedback or training into consistent behavioral change, or outcomes.
00:41:00.670 --> 00:41:22.700 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah, they're likely because they're eager. They're more likely to want to change. So it's like, if so, if they're hungry to learn, they're probably gonna receive the feedback and probably gonna commit to it. But if we see they're not committing to it, or maybe this is not a good fit. Maybe that job role is not a good fit for this individual, so
00:41:22.970 --> 00:41:42.600 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: a company would be doing them a favor if if they have that conversation where they say it looks like this is not a good fit for you. Maybe we have another role for you, or maybe you know, we could send you off, you know, somewhere else, and let's see how we're going to get you there. But usually they're more open to change, and they're likelier to change than the competent jerks.
00:41:42.600 --> 00:41:43.810 Mira Brancu: Hmm, hmm.
00:41:43.810 --> 00:41:47.339 Ken Nowack: But I think what you're hinting at, too, is what we call a skill set point.
00:41:48.010 --> 00:41:52.987 Ken Nowack: So it's a little bit hard, objectively to say, to what extent can this individual jump that
00:41:53.290 --> 00:42:21.570 Ken Nowack: height or reach a particular standard? But we see it when we see it real quick story. When I went to college I wanted to play professional baseball. You can laugh now, but that was my end goal many years ago, played one year in college and Coach swimly caught me and said, You work harder than anyone you come to practice earlier. You leave later, but we have something better for you here at the University. It's called Intramurals.
00:42:21.570 --> 00:42:21.904 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Sure.
00:42:22.240 --> 00:42:45.089 Ken Nowack: So it's a good illustration of I just didn't have the capability, as interested as I was to expand my skill set, and that was when the loss really was very apparent to the organization. To say, we need to bring in somebody that's got innate talent that you don't. It was a polite and kind way of really helping to cut the loss of what made a lot of sense.
00:42:45.340 --> 00:42:50.609 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And you know, that does speak to how sometimes.
00:42:51.218 --> 00:42:55.609 Mira Brancu: You do have to switch from coaching to enhance
00:42:56.144 --> 00:43:05.209 Mira Brancu: to coaching out of the role or position because it's not working. And that's a hard. That's another sort of like hard feedback.
00:43:05.670 --> 00:43:06.020 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Okay.
00:43:06.020 --> 00:43:06.730 Mira Brancu: To give.
00:43:07.720 --> 00:43:10.029 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:10.819 Mira Brancu: So.
00:43:11.770 --> 00:43:24.589 Mira Brancu: We have a quick minute to go before we get into our ad break. But I do want to touch on this last quadrant, low performer, low interpersonal skills. Tell me about that one.
00:43:25.210 --> 00:43:33.269 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: I mean this quadrant are people where the the leaders have to make a decision? Is, are they more of a liability
00:43:33.270 --> 00:43:57.909 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: than a benefit. And in many cases, you know, you want to align the feedback approach to the progressive discipline process of the organization, and we do that in our in our coaching engagement, so they all have their own. Hr. Disciplinary process. We want to integrate it. The approach here is about the consequence of their actions. If the consequence, they're not seeing the consequence, or they're not taking action on those consequences. Then
00:43:58.870 --> 00:44:02.590 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: yes, there's there's feedback approaches around helping them. Exit.
00:44:03.270 --> 00:44:03.640 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:44:03.640 --> 00:44:13.510 Ken Nowack: And we call that performance improvement coaching. And there's a Yiddish word for basically any any individual that fits in that category. And the word is Oi, we.
00:44:14.740 --> 00:44:21.410 Ken Nowack: It's just draining and challenging to deal with low performers that lack some interpersonal competence.
00:44:21.410 --> 00:44:38.070 Mira Brancu: That's right. That's right. And you know, in within the Federal Government, the government, you know, they're the sort of Hr avenues here are, is it performance, or is it conduct? And in this case it's kind of a little bit of both.
00:44:38.070 --> 00:44:38.850 Ken Nowack: You know.
00:44:39.283 --> 00:44:42.750 Mira Brancu: In performance and conduct. It's very, very difficult
00:44:42.990 --> 00:45:07.470 Mira Brancu: within the Federal Government to address a conduct issue as compared to a performance issue, and maybe we'll get a little bit into that when we return from our ad break. So you're listening to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today. Drs. Ken Nowak and Sandra Mashihi, authors of performance feedback strategies. And we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:46:43.270 --> 00:47:09.359 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills. We just finished reviewing the 2 by 2 model performance, by playing well or interpersonal skills and we were just talking about the low performer, low interpersonal skills. And I was really fascinated to hear about aligning the
00:47:09.963 --> 00:47:22.329 Mira Brancu: coaching, the leadership coaching to the Hr. Disciplinary model, and I would love to hear more about what that could look like. If you have kind of an example or a story about that.
00:47:25.150 --> 00:47:27.539 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: And you wanna allude to that a bit.
00:47:33.272 --> 00:47:34.480 Mira Brancu: You're on on, mute.
00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:42.509 Ken Nowack: Go ahead. Yeah.
00:47:42.710 --> 00:47:43.340 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah.
00:47:44.490 --> 00:48:10.359 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: yeah. So we we basically, it's the process by which we go through. And we want to help them. Understand, you know, what is the impact of their behaviors? We'll take them through the consequences of their behavior. So if you don't change by X amount of time, it will lead to this. So it's the feedback. Conversations are more geared around that
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:35.230 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: timeframe around whether change is going to happen. And then it's it's actually very tangible. At that point the conversation. It's the one quadrant that's actually very this change happening or not. Have they reached a certain change level of change within a certain timeframe. If not, then the company has to make a decision of how they're going to move forward with that a lot of times. These individuals
00:48:35.260 --> 00:48:43.400 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: also have Hr issues related to their interpersonal skills. So there is a lot of
00:48:43.530 --> 00:49:10.640 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: liability conversations that the actual organization on a legal level needs to make that kind of decision. So it's kind of a fine line. It's how they're gonna make the decision from there on out. We're not there to teach people how to fire people, but it will teach that will teach leaders that in this quadrant you want to make sure that you give them a timeframe, a structured way of helping them understand.
00:49:10.640 --> 00:49:25.690 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: If they don't change, then they're going to leave the organization with the progressive discipline processes. And then from there on, it's the organization's decisions with how they handle it. Because a lot of times, these individuals also have some, you know, some legal issues around
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:27.020 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: their conduct.
00:49:27.220 --> 00:49:34.069 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes what a coach or consultant can offer.
00:49:34.370 --> 00:49:40.770 Mira Brancu: As like, the the 1st step is, a a lot of leaders have this
00:49:41.030 --> 00:49:45.519 Mira Brancu: hope that somehow the coach or consultant has, like some magic
00:49:45.660 --> 00:49:53.430 Mira Brancu: special skill or wand, that they could just go in there and fix it, and in this case they really don't. And
00:49:53.680 --> 00:50:01.529 Mira Brancu: but there, there is kind of you know, a shift in mindset even to help them understand what
00:50:01.650 --> 00:50:05.130 Mira Brancu: coachability looks like, and to help them see like
00:50:06.005 --> 00:50:08.620 Mira Brancu: everything that you've said so far
00:50:08.970 --> 00:50:24.490 Mira Brancu: sounds like they're not interested in changing sounds like they're causing a lot of trouble. Sounds like you've tried every single thing possible, and it sounds like this is a management issue, not a coaching issue, and that alone can help leaders just
00:50:24.610 --> 00:50:29.249 Mira Brancu: be like, oh, that's what I'm dealing with, you know.
00:50:29.250 --> 00:50:29.790 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yeah.
00:50:30.510 --> 00:50:41.399 Mira Brancu: And the other challenging one going back to the toxic reformers. The thing that I find most challenging is when and you see this all the time
00:50:42.080 --> 00:50:48.840 Mira Brancu: high performer has been allowed for years, sometimes decades
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:59.950 Mira Brancu: to go on and on the way they have getting accolades, people working around them, never giving them feedback leaders, avoiding them, working around them.
00:51:00.160 --> 00:51:05.360 Mira Brancu: And all of a sudden you hire, you know, some new leader or some some new person comes in.
00:51:05.630 --> 00:51:19.170 Mira Brancu: and they're told you need to do something about that person, and this is the 1st time in like a decade that they've ever gotten any bad feedback, and they're shocked, and they make it about the leader and so
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:24.699 Mira Brancu: What do you do in that situation? Like what would be the 1st step
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:36.560 Mira Brancu: if a leader is having to face having that kind of a conversation where this person has never gotten feedback, and they've been allowed to go for a really long time with that behavior.
00:51:37.490 --> 00:51:56.440 Ken Nowack: One frame around these individuals. We often see them as overestimators in our research, meaning. Their self ratings, like again of identity, doesn't match their reputation, so they will pull out that card of look at all the prizes I've won, or look at all my reviews over the last 10 years.
00:51:56.440 --> 00:52:19.120 Ken Nowack: or look at all the money I'm bringing into this healthcare facility or the patents that I've got stacked up for this particular organization, and we do find a personality profile of these individuals that we term overestimators of being incredibly achievement oriented, which is what spurs their ability to achieve and do well. They have high self-esteem.
00:52:19.120 --> 00:52:43.269 Ken Nowack: They have very low humility which makes feedback really challenging. They will, in fact, push back to say, Well, I'm in arranged marriages. You don't really understand the folks that are reporting to me. I didn't select them. They're the problem, I'm not. And they also tend to share that. They're not very emotionally unstable meaning. They're not neurotic.
00:52:43.560 --> 00:53:08.470 Ken Nowack: They give stress, but they don't often feel it. So. Our attack with these individuals is really different, because we have to figure out a way to form an alliance with them, to be a trusted advisor rather than a feedback provider. And again, if we can partner with them in a way to say, Look, you are achievement oriented. You're really successful, and there's some things. If we could help you to shine even more, would you be interested
00:53:08.470 --> 00:53:30.759 Ken Nowack: to try these on. Do some things a little bit differently. Long term. You'll be even more impactful. So it's a real tough dance. I think when I was younger I would take these challenges on. Didn't have a lot of successes. When I got a little bit older I would delegate to people like Sandra, who are a little bit younger than me, and say, great learning, experience. Best of luck, have a happy life.
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:38.650 Ken Nowack: And now that we're a little wiser, we just find that these are very challenging developmental coaching situations.
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:51.420 Mira Brancu: Yes, yes, indeed, as we're wrapping up the takeaway for me out of all of these wonderful gold nuggets that you've shared, especially around this 2 by 2
00:53:51.630 --> 00:53:53.890 Mira Brancu: is not to overlook
00:53:54.390 --> 00:54:02.029 Mira Brancu: the quadrant with the high performer. High interpersonal skills because they're the ones that are going to leave. They have options.
00:54:02.140 --> 00:54:12.775 Mira Brancu: and they're the ones that are going to be looking for you, being able to be a great performance coach to them in order to get even better and better.
00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:17.010 Mira Brancu: I'm curious. What is the takeaway that you would like
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:21.180 Mira Brancu: one takeaway that you would like people to take from our conversation.
00:54:23.380 --> 00:54:45.599 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Yes, I said a little bit earlier, leaders need to know that there is no one. Size fits all approach to leading, especially giving feedback in order for feedback to land and to help people thrive and to help people understand you. You really have to tailor your approach accordingly to their needs and to meet them where they are.
00:54:45.860 --> 00:55:03.540 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: And don't assume that because you've given feedback effectively to one employee, and it's worked, and they're doing well. It's going to work with another employee. So you have to be agile, and you have to understand where people are at and where you can meet them, so that you can give effective feedback
00:55:03.670 --> 00:55:04.880 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: moving forward.
00:55:05.670 --> 00:55:16.990 Ken Nowack: And I'd echo that I think the intersection of personality, race, age, culture, neurodiversity, adds a layer of unpacking what we share to others in a way that they can understand it.
00:55:17.260 --> 00:55:21.160 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. Love this. Okay,
00:55:22.100 --> 00:55:32.410 Mira Brancu: here's some places that you can find Sandra and Ken. We have Nvisia learning. I keep saying, this wrong? Is it Envisia or Envisia.
00:55:32.630 --> 00:55:38.219 Ken Nowack: We'll take either. Sounds great. Thank you. And vision is typically what we call our company.
00:55:38.220 --> 00:55:55.009 Mira Brancu: I thought envisionlearning.com, and you can find all about their many, many amazing assessments and products and resources. There's also spectracoaching.com, and you can find out more about Sandra and her work helping leaders and teams thrive.
00:55:55.250 --> 00:55:58.210 Mira Brancu: And then there's performance feedback strategies.
00:55:58.779 --> 00:56:11.519 Mira Brancu: And you can go to www.td.org to find that book, as well as in other places that sell books, Amazon included performance, feedback strategies.
00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:12.460 Mira Brancu: and
00:56:14.220 --> 00:56:26.589 Mira Brancu: what did you take away audience from today? And more importantly, what is one small change you can implement this week, based on what you learned from Ken and Sandra
00:56:26.850 --> 00:56:29.229 Mira Brancu: share it with us on Linkedin
00:56:29.450 --> 00:56:33.059 Mira Brancu: and@talkradio.nyc, so we can cheer you on
00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:40.109 Mira Brancu: the hard skills is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, twitch, apple spotify Amazon Podcasts all over the place.
00:56:40.220 --> 00:56:44.680 Mira Brancu: If today's episode resonated with you, share it with a colleague or leave a review.
00:56:44.900 --> 00:56:56.949 Mira Brancu: And if you're looking for more personalized support or leadership or team coaching. You can also head to go towerscope.com, including spectra coaching and envisia learning right
00:56:57.070 --> 00:57:08.930 Mira Brancu: and the stuff the stuff that I like to talk about on this show is part of my research backed strategic leadership, pathway, roadmap that I use to help socially conscious organizational misfits on their leadership journeys
00:57:09.350 --> 00:57:32.249 Mira Brancu: to learn more. You can check us out@www.gotowrascope.com there. You can also check out my books, including Millennials, guide to workplace politics and the workbook version. You could check out our Leadership Academy, the workshop that I mentioned, and you can find all of that, and subscribe to my newsletter over there.
00:57:32.550 --> 00:57:45.410 Mira Brancu: Thank you to Talkradio, Dot, Nyc. For hosting, thank you, and together we will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side. Thank you for joining me and Doctors Ken Nowak and
00:57:45.550 --> 00:57:52.499 Mira Brancu: Sandra Mashihi today on this journey. This is Dr. Mira Branco, signing off until next time. Stay steady.
00:57:52.640 --> 00:57:58.090 Mira Brancu: stay present, and keep building those hard skills. Muscles.
00:57:58.500 --> 00:57:59.770 Mira Brancu: Bye, everybody.
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:00.900 Sandra Mashihi, Ph.D.: Thank you.
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