Tuesdays: 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EST)
EPISODE SUMMARY:
What are 7 great mistakes leaders make that we can see happening right before our eyes? How do you avoid them? We'll share insider secrets from 1000 executive coaches - This podcast episode will be the first time these research findings are shared in public!
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
Dr. Underhill, a thought leader in the field of executive coaching, has spent years researching executive coaching trends and needs as they emerge and today he'll be sharing 7 mistakes he's identified across 1000 coaches he's surveyed. These are preliminary findings that haven't even been published yet, so we will get an insider's scoop! We'll also learn how leaders can begin to address each one.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Brian O. Underhill, PhD, PCC is an industry-recognized pioneer in the global emergence of the executive coaching field. He is a thought leader, keynote speaker and author of 3 books and numerous whitepapers and articles. In 2024, Thinkers50 named him among the top thinkers in the coaching. He is the Founder and CEO of CoachSource, the world's largest "pure play" executive coaching firm, with 1200 coaches worldwide. He resides in Silicon Valley with wife Julie, 4 grown kids, and a lovable labradoodle.
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IF YOU ENJOYED THIS EPISODE, CAN I ASK A FAVOR?
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
www.gotowerscope.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bunderhill9/
https://www.coachsource.com
#leadership #executivecoaching #executives #careerkillers #executives #leader #coach #TheHardSkills
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
In this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu introduces groundbreaking research on the seven most significant leadership mistakes, shared publicly for the first time, drawn from insights across a thousand executive coaches. Featuring Dr. Brian Underhill, a pioneer in executive coaching and founder of CoachSource, the discussion explores the evolution of coaching from a niche support to a critical leadership development tool. Leaders and high-achievers will gain early access to powerful data, practical strategies for avoiding career derailers, and a deeper understanding of the authentic challenges today’s executives face.
In this next segment of The Hard Skills, Dr. Brian Underhill unveils the first of the “7 Great Mistakes” leaders make—failing to develop true self-awareness—which can silently derail careers and impact organizational health. He also reveals mistake #7: allowing current knowledge to blind leaders to emerging future trends, using a powerful anecdote about dismissing the now-ubiquitous phone camera. Through data, storytelling, and lived experience, Underhill emphasizes the importance of humility, openness, and diverse perspectives in leadership decision-making and personal growth.
In this extended segment of The Hard Skills, Dr. Brian Underhill unpacks leadership mistakes #2 through #4, offering powerful stories and practical advice for growth-oriented leaders. Mistake #2—“leaving dead bodies behind”—refers to leaders who succeed externally while mistreating their teams, often believing they're too valuable to be held accountable. Mistake #3 highlights the opposite: leaders who are too conflict-avoidant and fail to hold others accountable, resulting in poor team performance. Mistake #4 focuses on ineffective communication—either over- or under-communicating—and emphasizes the need for feedback, self-awareness, and adaptive communication strategies to ensure inclusive, productive leadership.
In the final segment of The Hard Skills, Dr. Brian Underhill explores the last two major leadership mistakes: misunderstanding the term “executive presence” (#5), and mishandling change and culture transitions (#6). He emphasizes that executive presence often lacks clarity and can be unfairly applied, especially to women and marginalized leaders, while also noting how poorly managed change initiatives often fail due to cultural misalignment. His key takeaway: all of these mistakes are avoidable and fixable—starting with self-awareness and a genuine desire to grow. Even small improvements in leadership can create powerful ripple effects across teams and organizations.
00:00:51.800 --> 00:01:10.590 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills show where we take a deep dive into the most challenging soft skills required to navigate leadership, uncertainty, complexities and change today and into the future. I'm your host, Dr. Mira Bronkut, psychologist, leadership, consultant and founder of Towerscope.
00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:18.139 Mira Brancu: and I am super excited to talk with today's guest, we will be talking about 7 great mistakes.
00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:21.769 Mira Brancu: leaders make and how to avoid them.
00:01:21.970 --> 00:01:26.019 Mira Brancu: Now, this podcast episode is the 1st time.
00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:28.979 Brian Underhill: These research findings are being shared in public.
00:01:29.160 --> 00:01:38.209 Mira Brancu: They're preliminary. But still we're getting the scoop. We're going to get access to insider secrets from a thousand executive coaches.
00:01:38.350 --> 00:01:41.800 Mira Brancu: So whether you're a leader managing a team.
00:01:41.960 --> 00:01:57.369 Mira Brancu: a coach, or simply trying to support your colleagues. This conversation is for you. Now, before we get started, I do have a few quick announcements. First, st we have moved up in ranking from last year and are now officially
00:01:57.510 --> 00:02:04.070 Mira Brancu: moved from the top 5%. I mean top 10% to the top 5% of all podcasts globally.
00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:07.049 Mira Brancu: very, very exciting.
00:02:07.340 --> 00:02:15.740 Mira Brancu: Second, a reminder that our workshop redefining and developing your leadership identity in 2025 is coming up
00:02:15.940 --> 00:02:17.729 Mira Brancu: on May 21, st
00:02:17.990 --> 00:02:39.310 Mira Brancu: the workshop includes a leadership assessment and several tools to help you explore how to apply your leadership, style and identity to current leadership decisions, transitions and people management right now it's only open by private invitation to my newsletter subscribers who will get a special preferred subscriber price. If they register by this Friday, April 18, th
00:02:39.810 --> 00:02:45.750 Mira Brancu: you can hop on my newsletter before then to receive that access, or you can wait until I announce it publicly.
00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:51.340 Mira Brancu: We're going to be reflecting on questions such as, How do I show up as a leader right now?
00:02:51.740 --> 00:02:55.049 Mira Brancu: Who must I become to live up to this moment.
00:02:55.400 --> 00:03:03.030 Mira Brancu: What have I overcome that has made me more resilient and effective as a leader? And what must I still overcome
00:03:03.420 --> 00:03:08.510 Mira Brancu: which strengths could best help me navigate current leadership challenges which might get in the way.
00:03:08.920 --> 00:03:23.179 Mira Brancu: And is it okay to show up for my team as my authentic self, while my authentic self right now is exhausted, worried, and stressed. Would it be more helpful to my team if I don't show up fully authentic like that?
00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:27.870 Mira Brancu: These are really difficult challenges and questions that I'm hearing all the time. That's why I'm
00:03:27.980 --> 00:03:36.619 Mira Brancu: holding this workshop. There's there are questions of identity at a time when most of us are asking this of ourselves.
00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:44.309 Mira Brancu: and this workshop can quickly provide some clarity. So you don't have to feel so overwhelmed or stuck in your leadership. Next, steps.
00:03:45.040 --> 00:03:53.060 Mira Brancu: Okay, with that announcement, let me introduce our guest, Ryan O. Underhill, Phd. Pcc.
00:03:53.270 --> 00:04:00.239 Mira Brancu: He is an industry recognized pioneer in the global emergence of the executive coaching field.
00:04:00.350 --> 00:04:06.649 Mira Brancu: He's a thought leader, a keynote speaker and author of 3 books and numerous white papers and articles
00:04:06.950 --> 00:04:14.650 Mira Brancu: in 2024 thinkers, 50 named him among the top thinkers in coaching. That is a huge honor.
00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:27.300 Mira Brancu: He's the founder and CEO of coach source. The world's largest pure play. We'll find out what that is, in a second pure play, executive coaching firm with 1,200 coaches worldwide.
00:04:27.790 --> 00:04:40.160 Mira Brancu: he resides in Silicon Valley with his wife Julie, 4 grown kids, and a lovable Labrador with me today. I also have his book. Coach me
00:04:40.370 --> 00:04:49.640 Mira Brancu: your personal brand, a personal board of directors, and maybe we'll have a chance to pull some from that book as well.
00:04:49.940 --> 00:04:52.299 Mira Brancu: So welcome on the show, Brian.
00:04:52.710 --> 00:04:59.099 Brian Underhill: Thank you. It's so great to be here. Thanks for having me. And hopefully I'll see that book in your bookshelf behind you.
00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:00.020 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:05:00.419 --> 00:05:00.819 Brian Underhill: Absolutely.
00:05:00.820 --> 00:05:03.600 Mira Brancu: I'm gonna add it. Okay.
00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:04.199 Brian Underhill: We added.
00:05:04.200 --> 00:05:10.460 Mira Brancu: Let's let's start with the the 1st question I mentioned pure play executive coaching firm. What does that mean? Pure play.
00:05:11.020 --> 00:05:34.469 Brian Underhill: Sure thing, so pure play, meaning that executive coaching is the focus of the business. So we don't really do coaching below executive level. We don't really do other services beyond coaching, so we don't have a search business or a different kind of consulting business. So executive coaching is
00:05:34.590 --> 00:05:40.419 Brian Underhill: all we do, and 1,200 coaches around the world. That's a very large number.
00:05:40.420 --> 00:05:47.420 Mira Brancu: I was just going to say. If executive coaching is the only thing you focus on.
00:05:47.987 --> 00:05:50.670 Mira Brancu: And you have 1,200 coaches.
00:05:51.180 --> 00:06:00.119 Mira Brancu: You you must be onto something that that must mean there's there's a need. There's a desire among executives for this level of coaching right.
00:06:00.810 --> 00:06:23.110 Brian Underhill: Absolutely for sure. And this started gosh! Probably 25 years ago, when I would notice that clients would ask for more and more specialties of coaches or coaches in certain parts of the world who spoke certain languages. And so it it started to become obvious that just you know, here's our stable of 40 was not going to
00:06:23.280 --> 00:06:28.929 Brian Underhill: serve our multinational corporations. But instead.
00:06:29.050 --> 00:06:40.879 Brian Underhill: let's have a vetted, curated network, a large one in multiple countries that would have a better we'd be able to meet. Our corporate clients needs much better that way.
00:06:40.880 --> 00:06:45.310 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I was gonna say, 25 years ago.
00:06:45.550 --> 00:06:55.449 Mira Brancu: That was well before coaching was cool, and it was well before coaching was even, I think, like
00:06:56.070 --> 00:07:01.589 Mira Brancu: shared publicly like that was before. People said, I have a coach, and you know
00:07:02.270 --> 00:07:11.040 Mira Brancu: they they kept it kind of a secret back then. So I'm curious like, how did you? How did you know this was kind of the
00:07:11.270 --> 00:07:12.065 Mira Brancu: the
00:07:13.190 --> 00:07:22.840 Mira Brancu: next big trend or need? Right? And as you were building this company, what was the vision, and and why.
00:07:24.070 --> 00:07:38.680 Brian Underhill: Yeah. And I'm not sure anyone really, truly knows. Kind of, you know. The next hot thing you know in Hr, too, there's a lot of trends that come and go, and and I can't I can't honestly say oh, I knew this would be huge in the next
00:07:38.890 --> 00:07:40.489 Brian Underhill: 1020, 30 years.
00:07:40.490 --> 00:07:42.100 Mira Brancu: And own it, Brian.
00:07:42.100 --> 00:07:55.149 Brian Underhill: I wish I wish I had that kind of foresight. It was always that's the optimistic side. The pessimistic realistic side was more about. Geez! Is this a fad? But obviously it's not.
00:07:55.260 --> 00:08:06.749 Brian Underhill: And so, you know, when we 1st started. So I started to work for Marshall Goldsmith, a well-known coach, still a good friend of mine. He gave me my start, as it were. I was in graduate school.
00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:23.829 Brian Underhill: and he was doing 360 feedback debriefs by the thousands, tens of thousands when I arrived. So he'd go teach an amazing leadership course, and then a bunch of us coaches would debrief the 360 tool with each leader, one to one a 1 h coaching session.
00:08:24.070 --> 00:08:49.360 Brian Underhill: and then the clients just wanted more of that. They'd like, oh, I love that one session you did. Can we do more than the one session, you know? Can we do a few sessions? Can we do several months, can we do? And eventually it started to become 6 and honestly, one year assignments. And there wasn't. I mean, the Icf started in 94. I'm referring to a period right now. 98, 99, something like that.
00:08:49.510 --> 00:08:54.870 Brian Underhill: And you know, we didn't know about Icf where there was not many coaching schools yet.
00:08:55.020 --> 00:09:01.090 Brian Underhill: We're just making up a methodology. Honestly, I mean, we're just following Marshall's wisdom and
00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:04.329 Brian Underhill: coming up with some things. And it was just
00:09:04.550 --> 00:09:08.710 Brian Underhill: coming out of the sky to create a coaching methodology.
00:09:08.880 --> 00:09:28.879 Brian Underhill: I remember the 1st time I was given a 1 year assignment after doing just 1 h assignments, and I had to go to a colleague and go. What are we going to do with this person for one year? There wasn't a lot out there yet to base the work upon thankfully by now. That's been mostly all worked through. Of course, as the industry has matured.
00:09:29.130 --> 00:09:41.520 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. And as you started give doing these one year assignments. What did you learn about what leaders wanted more of, or even what they needed, and didn't know that they needed.
00:09:41.710 --> 00:09:42.383 Brian Underhill: Hmm.
00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:50.930 Brian Underhill: well, you know, it was interesting, too, because leaders didn't always know what this coaching thing was. So a lot of times they would be
00:09:51.500 --> 00:10:02.690 Brian Underhill: given coaching. Now we were mostly past the you're in trouble. So here's your coach on your way out, so we're mostly past that. But it wouldn't be uncommon, for.
00:10:02.810 --> 00:10:15.359 Brian Underhill: you know. I remember a telecom company and the Svp. Had a coach with Marshall, and then her 8 direct reports had one of us as as coaches as well. So she gave a coach to each person.
00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:37.939 Brian Underhill: but they didn't always understand what this coaching thing was, and to some extent. Leaders, even today may not always understand what it was. So you know what it is and how it could help them. So there was a certain amount of education, about what the role of coaching is and what we're there to do, what we're not there to do, how confidentiality works and so forth.
00:10:38.280 --> 00:10:48.439 Brian Underhill: So there was, you know, and there still is today, I think, to the end leader who might hire a coach some confusion about what a coach is there to help them to do exactly.
00:10:48.710 --> 00:10:50.460 Mira Brancu: That's right. Yeah, I mean,
00:10:51.180 --> 00:11:14.309 Mira Brancu: You know, I think people still confuse executive coaching with mentorship or business coaching or business strategy, or you know, things like that, and it is still, something that requires some, you know, some education. Now I'm I'm wondering. We're going to talk about the 7 great mistakes today? Right? How did you?
00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:21.619 Mira Brancu: How did you come to pull this information and to identify this list? In the 1st place.
00:11:21.620 --> 00:11:22.770 Brian Underhill: The list of the 7.
00:11:22.770 --> 00:11:23.360 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:29.750 Brian Underhill: Of course it has to be 7, because there's something magical, right? Something magical, a biblical proportions.
00:11:29.750 --> 00:11:30.829 Mira Brancu: Feels awkward.
00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:33.270 Brian Underhill: Yes, exactly so.
00:11:33.300 --> 00:11:52.360 Brian Underhill: So it's a bit of science. So for the science part at my firm coach source, we're always collecting. What are the themes that leaders are working on with their coaches, and now and then we'll do a blog piece or a publication on what leaders are working on most commonly.
00:11:52.360 --> 00:12:03.930 Brian Underhill: So. That's more of the science part. And then in between that maybe is with a thousand coaches. I usually have a pretty regular read on what coaches are up to
00:12:04.040 --> 00:12:18.739 Brian Underhill: anecdotally, and some of the crazy stories that we all hear now and then sworn to secrecy. Of course anonymizing names, and all of that. But yeah, there's some pretty interesting things we hear
00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:26.870 Brian Underhill: out there about what leaders are up to, and some of them are mega career killers. Honestly, if not addressed.
00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:29.710 Brian Underhill: and can really harm someone's
00:12:29.870 --> 00:12:33.740 Brian Underhill: career, and can really do a lot of harm to the organization if not addressed.
00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:45.050 Brian Underhill: And then the 3rd source is myself having coached for 25 plus years seeing it myself. There's certain areas of development that leaders can make fast progress and make improvement.
00:12:45.270 --> 00:12:48.089 Brian Underhill: and others that take a lot of work.
00:12:48.360 --> 00:13:09.219 Brian Underhill: But there are certain areas that, if not addressed again, can have major consequences in all kinds of ways, from success of the organization, the engagement of people working there, people working around this leader, this leader's own mental health and
00:13:09.520 --> 00:13:15.710 Brian Underhill: work-life balance, all kinds of effects can happen when some of these areas are not addressed.
00:13:15.710 --> 00:13:17.255 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. And
00:13:18.150 --> 00:13:31.420 Mira Brancu: we're reaching an ad break. So I'm not going to ask you the hard question just yet, which is which you know which is, tell me all about the 7 but I do want us to learn a little bit about like.
00:13:32.110 --> 00:13:43.989 Mira Brancu: When did you collect the information. And, like were there specific industries that you were sort of most curious about? Or did you collect across certain industries.
00:13:45.050 --> 00:14:08.199 Brian Underhill: yeah, for sure. Well, it's the mixture of the last time. We looked at more scientifically from corporations was, I want to say, mid last year. It was mid last year when we last looked at it, and we have a blog piece on that. Of course, talking to coaches just happens over all of these years, as does my own experience as a as an executive coach as well.
00:14:09.330 --> 00:14:13.480 Brian Underhill: But you know we know the world has changed a lot in the last
00:14:13.970 --> 00:14:27.580 Brian Underhill: 5 years or so, and it feels like it's constantly changing. So I expect some of what we're talking about now might be different in the next few years, and maybe it's different now than it might have been 10 years ago.
00:14:28.130 --> 00:14:31.690 Brian Underhill: Or maybe not. Some of these are kind of classics. Honestly.
00:14:32.020 --> 00:14:52.730 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, okay, so there's there's your caveat, everybody that we know these things change. And so we are sharing it at this point in time. April 15, th 2025. Okay, so we are nearing that ad break. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest
00:14:52.730 --> 00:15:05.079 Mira Brancu: today. Dr. Brian Underhill, author of Coach me your personal brand of I keep calling it personal personal Board of Directors. We air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern
00:15:05.230 --> 00:15:16.469 Mira Brancu: at that time. At this time. If you're listening to us right now, you can find us live streaming on Linkedin Youtube. Several other locations@talkradio.nyc. And we'll be right back with our guest in just a moment.
00:16:58.190 --> 00:17:05.370 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Dr. Brian Underhill, of Coach Source.
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:08.780 Mira Brancu: So, Drumroll, please.
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:14.320 Mira Brancu: We are going to get into the 7 great mistakes that leaders make
00:17:15.859 --> 00:17:18.569 Mira Brancu: with the caveat that these are preliminary.
00:17:18.760 --> 00:17:25.379 Mira Brancu: and they're still looking at the data, and everything can change in the course of a week. But
00:17:25.889 --> 00:17:33.930 Mira Brancu: some of these are indeed timeless, and you're getting to hear them today for the 1st time. So let's start with the first.st
00:17:34.610 --> 00:17:35.759 Mira Brancu: What is the first.st
00:17:40.990 --> 00:17:53.849 Brian Underhill: Sorry I forgot to unmute. There we go, Rookie. Mistake for fun. I actually will start off by telling you the the 7.th Why not? It doesn't have to be reverse order, but.
00:17:53.850 --> 00:17:54.380 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:59.469 Brian Underhill: It's a fun story that many leaders make, and it can be very
00:17:59.670 --> 00:18:03.510 Brian Underhill: critical to a company's future if this one is not
00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:14.839 Brian Underhill: done correctly. And and we're all subject to it. By the way. So we're going to go back into the early 2 thousands. And if you could possibly remember what your cell phone looked like. Then
00:18:14.910 --> 00:18:36.340 Brian Underhill: you very likely had one of those Nokia's with the snake game on it. Okay, so that should help everyone remember what we looked like back then, and I was coaching at a company here in Silicon Valley, where I live with a head of R. And D, and in his particular company. They were among the 1st
00:18:36.858 --> 00:18:43.030 Brian Underhill: to start to develop a camera for the cell phone, and I remember him telling me about this. It's the 1st time I'd ever heard of it.
00:18:43.030 --> 00:18:43.440 Mira Brancu: Wow!
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:50.320 Brian Underhill: That. Oh, yeah, we're working on this technology. And it will eventually enable cameras on cell phones.
00:18:50.590 --> 00:18:57.889 Brian Underhill: And I thought to myself, This is the stupidest idea I have ever heard.
00:18:58.580 --> 00:19:11.569 Brian Underhill: Who wants a camera on their cell phone? No one's gonna use that. We have our digital cameras. And now, okay, remember, I'm a coach. I'm not there to judge this this. So I didn't say anything. Okay, I want to make sure. Everyone knows that that was not my job
00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:20.719 Brian Underhill: to evaluate that in my head. I remember thinking, this is so like, I can't believe they're wasting time on this, so
00:19:21.050 --> 00:19:47.190 Brian Underhill: we all know where that went right. And in about was it 2,007? I happened to go to the conference in La Sorry, in San Francisco, where the iphone was 1st revealed, and I remember seeing it up in this glimmering case, and everyone running around and taking pictures of it. I think we know darn well what became of the future of cameras on cell phones. And that is Mistake number 7, which is honestly.
00:19:47.620 --> 00:19:55.190 Brian Underhill: not properly anticipating the future, because your current knowledge gets in the way.
00:19:55.510 --> 00:20:00.569 Brian Underhill: So one thing I didn't quite mention is, I do have a lot of technical interest. And I did then.
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:09.250 Brian Underhill: And I thought, as someone who knows something about technology, that this was a dumb idea and wouldn't go anywhere that got in my way.
00:20:09.410 --> 00:20:25.970 Brian Underhill: I wasn't able to see an incredible future that we all now live in to this day. So imagine history is littered with companies that missed key milestones in the world, and you could go and look at case studies of times where leaders
00:20:26.340 --> 00:20:34.839 Brian Underhill: had all the information and made the wrong choice a very bad, very painful, very expensive, and possibly bankrupting choice.
00:20:34.850 --> 00:20:41.517 Mira Brancu: So so interesting. Wow! And right. And now we have no cameras.
00:20:42.030 --> 00:20:42.580 Brian Underhill: Yes.
00:20:42.876 --> 00:20:43.469 Mira Brancu: The camera.
00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:44.280 Brian Underhill: Those are gone!
00:20:44.350 --> 00:20:46.886 Mira Brancu: So I'm really curious.
00:20:47.730 --> 00:21:01.060 Mira Brancu: how, if if you have all of this knowledge right, that it makes perfect sense that your instinct is going is going to be. You're going to rest on the vast knowledge that you bring to a position. So
00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:04.869 Mira Brancu: how do you override the liability
00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:08.140 Mira Brancu: like the shadow side to that vast knowledge.
00:21:08.310 --> 00:21:20.720 Brian Underhill: Yeah. And I. And I think we're really susceptible to this. It takes actually being a lot more open than many of us are when new information comes in. That's contradictory to what you already currently know.
00:21:21.428 --> 00:21:34.720 Brian Underhill: And so so that does take having people around you or near you or whatnot, who who are seeing things from different angles, welcoming those perspectives, even living with them.
00:21:35.375 --> 00:21:44.200 Brian Underhill: Some companies do future scenario planning like, what would the world look like if no one has a camera anymore, you know, maybe, whatever it might have been
00:21:44.370 --> 00:21:52.730 Brian Underhill: to really be open to that possibility that there could be something bigger or different here than you're currently allowing yourself to see.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.170 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I can imagine.
00:21:55.937 --> 00:22:07.589 Mira Brancu: the many other applications this has to society to global peace. I mean, I I love thinking about
00:22:07.710 --> 00:22:09.840 Mira Brancu: how you can apply.
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:16.310 Mira Brancu: You know, some of these skill sets that we talk about on this show. You know, we say leadership skills. But really.
00:22:16.915 --> 00:22:26.829 Mira Brancu: that also applies to like how we change as a society, and you know, grow as human beings, and
00:22:27.030 --> 00:22:33.950 Mira Brancu: that openness to differences and different opinions and different perspectives is something that
00:22:34.100 --> 00:22:46.940 Mira Brancu: humans fight so hard against. And yet we desperately need to be leaning towards. So I appreciate that you started with that. I know that was Number 7. By the way, Brian, it could have been number one.
00:22:47.270 --> 00:22:53.510 Brian Underhill: Could certainly can. Yeah, as I said that you, you know, this is all a bit new, so we could mess the numbers around. Still we have
00:22:53.510 --> 00:22:54.260 Brian Underhill: can for that.
00:22:54.260 --> 00:22:57.979 Mira Brancu: No one will judge you if you start moving these numbers around.
00:23:00.150 --> 00:23:04.519 Mira Brancu: Alright. Well, do you want to go backwards from there? Number 6?
00:23:05.510 --> 00:23:09.370 Brian Underhill: Sure as I could be. Number 3, I won't know.
00:23:09.370 --> 00:23:12.589 Brian Underhill: Let me just go forward from here. Why not? Let's start at one.
00:23:12.590 --> 00:23:13.000 Mira Brancu: All right.
00:23:13.328 --> 00:23:18.910 Brian Underhill: And so number one actually has an interesting relation to 7 in in sort of a way.
00:23:19.150 --> 00:23:30.539 Brian Underhill: Now, lots of research in leadership will often find that the most critical aspect of being a good leader is self-awareness.
00:23:30.670 --> 00:23:41.070 Brian Underhill: and I couldn't quote this very second. But I'm sure it was Ccl. Or other organizations that have found that over the years is self-awareness. And knowing yourself
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:42.350 Brian Underhill: and
00:23:43.480 --> 00:24:10.079 Brian Underhill: you know, that's a lot of what we do in coaching right, we gather feedback, we, we collect that feedback anonymously, we share it with the leader, and maybe all of us have been in situations with a leader who. This is a serious shock to that person. And that's okay. That's why we're there to help them. Think about it, help them integrate it. If for someone listening has not done anything in the feedback department.
00:24:10.360 --> 00:24:29.790 Brian Underhill: Of course I'd say you should try it, but I'll also say there will be amazing surprises in a good way about yourself that you never knew, and there will be, maybe, some stinging things as well about you on the negative side. But imagine, not knowing that you know. Imagine going your whole life, never looking in a mirror.
00:24:30.170 --> 00:24:48.860 Brian Underhill: not knowing how you're coming across to others. And so a lack of self awareness can be a major career killer, not just for leaders, but anyone in an organization. And I think we've all worked with those people now and then. I'm sure we've we've had to deal with them in the past.
00:24:49.060 --> 00:24:58.920 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and not just them as if it's like, not us, too. Right? Like we're included in that. I think there's some statistic out there.
00:24:59.427 --> 00:25:08.640 Mira Brancu: Like, 85% of us think that we're self aware. And only 15% of us are actually fully self aware of how we're coming across, or something like that.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:25.250 Brian Underhill: Yeah, it's something. Well, I don't know if this is the right number. But I think studies on people thinking are, if they're a better than average driver in their car, or a worse than average driver. They've just asked this in a room of people, and 85% of them will have their hands up, that they are better than average.
00:25:25.630 --> 00:25:29.800 Brian Underhill: And so we know that we can be delusional about how good we really are at things.
00:25:29.800 --> 00:25:32.829 Mira Brancu: And we all complain about all the other bad drivers out.
00:25:32.830 --> 00:25:35.120 Brian Underhill: It's all them for sure.
00:25:35.120 --> 00:25:41.800 Mira Brancu: Right. I do think that. You know, saying that
00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:47.200 Mira Brancu: sometimes, because it seems like such common sense.
00:25:47.310 --> 00:26:01.039 Mira Brancu: people overlook the work that it takes to continuously self develop over time. And you know, just because you've become quote unquote, self-aware at 1 point in time with one role does not mean? That's the end of it.
00:26:01.220 --> 00:26:06.179 Mira Brancu: Because every time you were put into a new challenge you haven't faced before.
00:26:06.580 --> 00:26:10.210 Mira Brancu: you do need to re-engage in that self-awareness.
00:26:10.849 --> 00:26:21.019 Mira Brancu: You know exploration to see. What else did you not know about yourself until you got to this situation or role or position to have to face this new thing.
00:26:21.670 --> 00:26:32.859 Brian Underhill: Absolutely true, and not just a 360, or interviews by a coach. But there's lots of psychometric personality assessments and so forth that are really insightful.
00:26:33.060 --> 00:26:55.190 Brian Underhill: My wife laughs at me because anytime one of these comes out. Someone will encourage me to take it, because we'll allow a thousand coaches, you know these things come to me, you know. Hey? Here's this new tool about this and that, and I'll take it. And my wife is like. Why do you keep taking these things? Don't you know yourself already? No, I do, too. I do.
00:26:55.190 --> 00:27:11.297 Mira Brancu: Me, too. I I'm I love taking those assessments and learning something new about myself. And then, if I feel like Oh, this feels off, I will give it to my husband. I'll say, what do you think? Does that sound like me? And he'd be like, yeah.
00:27:12.010 --> 00:27:13.009 Brian Underhill: It always does.
00:27:13.010 --> 00:27:17.869 Mira Brancu: Things right. The Johari window. Other people can sometimes see things about you that you don't see.
00:27:18.740 --> 00:27:21.329 Brian Underhill: Precisely that, and
00:27:21.470 --> 00:27:37.680 Brian Underhill: my company will will use one of these known assessments, and then we'll actually have it on every person here. And then, when we're having some troubles, we can pull up both of those people and say, Oh, oh, okay, I see why this is happening. I totally get this. Now kind of why you're
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:44.849 Brian Underhill: you 2 are rubbing each other the wrong way, based on how you're wired. And let's talk about how we can make that better.
00:27:44.850 --> 00:27:52.340 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I think we have time to touch on one more before the break.
00:27:53.210 --> 00:27:59.475 Brian Underhill: All right. So drumroll, please drum roll, please.
00:28:00.490 --> 00:28:03.959 Brian Underhill: You saw saving Private Ryan.
00:28:04.930 --> 00:28:05.560 Mira Brancu: Did not.
00:28:05.560 --> 00:28:07.230 Brian Underhill: Entrance to that. Okay? Well.
00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:18.149 Brian Underhill: it's a gory 1st 25 min as they come on the beach in D-day, and there's bodies all over the place, left dead bodies left behind everywhere.
00:28:18.150 --> 00:28:18.680 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:28:19.326 --> 00:28:26.470 Brian Underhill: Well, there are leaders out there that are notorious for leaving dead bodies wherever they go.
00:28:26.470 --> 00:28:27.110 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:28:27.110 --> 00:28:35.209 Brian Underhill: And maybe after the break, I'll tell you a really fascinating story about a leader I got to follow around who was
00:28:35.730 --> 00:28:39.389 Brian Underhill: doing this in the most amazing ways I'd ever seen.
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:56.850 Mira Brancu: Oh, my goodness, okay, great. Let's leave people on the edge of their seat for that story. You are listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco, and our guest today, Dr. Ryan Underhill, author of Coach me your Personal Board of Directors.
00:28:56.850 --> 00:28:57.230 Brian Underhill: Did it.
00:28:57.230 --> 00:29:09.860 Mira Brancu: We are on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Join us right now, and you can find us on Linkedin, Youtube, several other locations at Talkradionyc, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:50.799 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Mira Bronco and our guest today, Brian Underhill, and we are learning about the 7 great mistakes that leaders make
00:30:51.210 --> 00:31:09.250 Mira Brancu: from lessons learned across a thousand coaches, executive coaches from Coach source, and we were starting to talk about. We talked about Number 7, first, st then number one, then number 2, and with number 2, leaving dead bodies behind. Yes.
00:31:09.380 --> 00:31:11.850 Mira Brancu: you have an interesting story about this.
00:31:11.850 --> 00:31:32.580 Brian Underhill: Yeah, well, and I bet you, if you asked a lot of coaches, this is one of the more common areas that we're asked to help with, and it can be very severe. So imagine if you follow big time tennis you know, each of these tennis manufacturers has a really high, level person that outfits all the famous pros with their all their equipment.
00:31:32.750 --> 00:31:47.200 Brian Underhill: They're fitting them, making specialized rackets for them. And so they have a very close relationship, right? And one such company called me. They had someone like this who's well regarded, well known in the industry.
00:31:47.330 --> 00:32:01.249 Brian Underhill: and everyone knew him. All the famous people in the world. He'd been on the cover of magazines and you know, athletes, celebrities. Everyone would come to him for this assistant.
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:10.760 Brian Underhill: He was horrendous to people back at the office is what I was told. The head of Hr. Was telling me about this. He was really nasty, really toxic
00:32:10.870 --> 00:32:23.520 Brian Underhill: just head way up in the clouds about how great he was, and he was too big to fail. Honestly, they more or less said that to me like we can't fire him, and like he's just, too, at least at the time they thought that.
00:32:23.910 --> 00:32:31.609 Brian Underhill: So I joined him on tour, because, you know, someone's got to join him on tour right, and see what it's like
00:32:32.310 --> 00:32:34.819 Mira Brancu: What a nice perk of the coaching.
00:32:34.820 --> 00:33:03.769 Brian Underhill: He was actually, really he and I had a good relationship. He was cool with me, but I was trying to look for signs about how he is with his people, and the smallest thing happened that was really telling. They have, like this trailer truck kind of thing with a lobby, and the and and reps come in and out, and one of his employees was coming up the stairs holding all of these boxes and trying to get in bunch of rackets. And whatever my guy is sitting at the right there on Facebook at the time, this is a long time ago
00:33:03.800 --> 00:33:18.020 Brian Underhill: watching stuff on Facebook, and he looks up and sees his own direct report dying under all of the boxes. Can't get the door open trying to get in and so forth and just looks right back down on his phone, gets right back to laughing at Facebook.
00:33:18.120 --> 00:33:30.819 Brian Underhill: Something tiny like that says a lot about how he sees others, and how he treats them or doesn't with respect. So even though it wasn't blatantly rude or anything like that, it spoke volumes.
00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:37.040 Brian Underhill: Imagine anyone surprised. Maybe he was not too big to fail.
00:33:37.340 --> 00:33:43.059 Brian Underhill: The behavior got to the point where certain clients were seeing it. They let him go, and he's never been seen.
00:33:43.060 --> 00:33:43.650 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:33:44.670 --> 00:33:46.100 Brian Underhill: Career's over.
00:33:46.598 --> 00:33:50.320 Brian Underhill: At a certain point you can leave some dead bodies, maybe
00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:54.360 Brian Underhill: at some point most companies might decide.
00:33:54.520 --> 00:34:05.319 Brian Underhill: Yeah, you're not too big to fail. We need to let you go. Enough is enough. And unfortunately that was not a success story on my part. I regret that.
00:34:05.800 --> 00:34:12.830 Brian Underhill: But it's a great lesson, because I bet you we've all seen this. We've all seen famous leaders out there. I'm sure we can all name them
00:34:13.020 --> 00:34:19.030 Brian Underhill: who were notorious about how they treated people and talk about whether that was really
00:34:19.290 --> 00:34:24.330 Brian Underhill: effective or not. As a leadership style. I think most of us would say it's not.
00:34:24.550 --> 00:34:26.989 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I bet you know.
00:34:27.290 --> 00:34:31.629 Mira Brancu: in order for a coach to be successful with that kind of person, the
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:39.450 Mira Brancu: but really with anybody. They have to want to change. They have to see the problem right? Yes, and often.
00:34:39.659 --> 00:35:02.440 Mira Brancu: when you're an exceptionally high performer, you don't see a problem. You only see your successes, and people, you know, give you accolades, and you know monetary rewards and all kinds of things. But it sounds like in this situation. It almost came too late to salvage right like he. He finally got the
00:35:02.730 --> 00:35:04.859 Mira Brancu: feedback that people were unhappy.
00:35:05.486 --> 00:35:15.409 Mira Brancu: At a point where everyone, you know started removing their investment in him. And you know, too late. I'm curious
00:35:15.660 --> 00:35:18.759 Mira Brancu: how what? What do you see?
00:35:19.050 --> 00:35:23.839 Mira Brancu: It takes for a leader not to get to that point.
00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:24.690 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:35:24.690 --> 00:35:29.120 Mira Brancu: Liability. Is there something else that they could catch sooner? Is there a way to do that?
00:35:29.630 --> 00:35:40.160 Brian Underhill: Well, sometimes they know it honestly. That's just their de facto way of managing people. Sometimes people have tried to tell them this. Their boss should
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:43.279 Brian Underhill: work with them on this, but doesn't always.
00:35:43.560 --> 00:36:04.499 Brian Underhill: And interestingly, this area can be very fixable. It can be severe, but it can be fixed extremely fast if the leader genuinely wants to change, and that's not always a guarantee, and I think was true. In this gentleman's case. We've seen cases where a leader, I thought, was pretty hopelessly
00:36:04.600 --> 00:36:32.019 Brian Underhill: in bad shape, and within weeks, like Hr. Called and said, What are you feeding him? What drug are you giving him? It's he's like a different person, you know. He's made so much improvement, so much change. So the willingness is just the biggest factor. By the way, with these folks. I bet you they're great with their clients most of the time. Right? It's like, why can't you act like that, or with everyone else, or here around here. Just that alone will solve most of what we're talking about.
00:36:32.020 --> 00:36:41.730 Mira Brancu: That's right, that's right. There's plenty of people that are better at managing up or managing well with clients and not managing their teams, or things like that for sure.
00:36:41.730 --> 00:36:48.190 Mira Brancu: And they, you know, whether they realize it or not. Right? Okay, let's move on to Number 3.
00:36:49.200 --> 00:36:59.360 Brian Underhill: Well, the opposite of that. It's really funny. So I think most leaders, when we do their feedback, we're told. Not always. But we're told. They're either too rough on people.
00:36:59.570 --> 00:37:05.151 Brian Underhill: or they're way too soft and not assertive, and not
00:37:06.120 --> 00:37:22.929 Brian Underhill: holding people accountable. And that can be very damaging, too, especially to your high performers, top performers who see someone who's not being addressed, you know, who's not performing as expected, and the boss is just too nice. It's just very hard for them to give feedback.
00:37:23.120 --> 00:37:38.819 Brian Underhill: and as coaches we have to help them with that, because they will look for all kinds of ways to not give feedback to the person. And and as a result, as a result, results don't happen often, right? Because people are getting used to a chill
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:49.609 Brian Underhill: management style, and they sometimes will do less. I mean, we all had teachers, and within the 1st few weeks you figure out how tough this teacher really is.
00:37:49.820 --> 00:38:00.270 Brian Underhill: and how much maybe you can get away with. And they're like, Oh, they're pretty chill, and at least for me, I would lower some of my energy level in that class because I could get away with it.
00:38:00.640 --> 00:38:10.789 Brian Underhill: I'm not here to say that all professionals are like that. But this is a big problem. That kind of leader is not going to go that high into the organization. They might be well liked as a friend.
00:38:10.970 --> 00:38:16.719 Brian Underhill: but they're not necessarily leading the way they need to be to be effective.
00:38:16.720 --> 00:38:19.560 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. And I think
00:38:21.590 --> 00:38:24.810 Mira Brancu: probably as a result of that personality style, they
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:28.859 Mira Brancu: do end up in coaching more often because they
00:38:29.130 --> 00:38:40.223 Mira Brancu: probably feel the pain more quickly because they have to give hard feedback, and that's painful, and they have to hold people accountable, and they don't want to. Their conflict avoidant usually. And
00:38:40.940 --> 00:38:56.910 Mira Brancu: you know. And so they're they're much more likely to want to address that, because it's not pleasant already in inter intrapersonally. It's not pleasant. So I definitely, you know, can understand why.
00:38:57.240 --> 00:39:21.429 Mira Brancu: you know, like you even see what is like the top thing that people ask. You know, in webinars and things like that, feedback giving and receiving, managing conflict better managing difficulties. All of this has to do with kind of the same thing, which is like having to be direct, and sometimes hold people accountable, and have those hard conversations and things like that.
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:44.410 Brian Underhill: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's not easy. And it's not like you're one way or the other for your whole career. There's times, you may be one way or the other way. Certain scenarios are with certain people. Certain people might scare you, and you're a little scared to talk to them and other people, you know, you're kind of rough on or whatever. So it's not necessarily you, one way or the other way the whole time.
00:39:44.410 --> 00:40:01.220 Mira Brancu: I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, because you know, different different contexts and situations pull out different parts of us. And and you're right. We might be really good in one context and really struggle in another, depending on, you know, all of the influence and experiences we're having in that context.
00:40:02.220 --> 00:40:04.919 Mira Brancu: All right, let's go to number 4.
00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:14.359 Brian Underhill: Well, number 4 is an easy one in one sense, I bet you everyone would raise their hand to say, Hey, we need to communicate better. You know.
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:14.780 Mira Brancu: It's.
00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:19.949 Brian Underhill: Very common. Our coaches are working with leaders on communication skills in one way, shape or form.
00:40:20.386 --> 00:40:33.190 Brian Underhill: being communicating more effectively. Sometimes it's not communicating enough. Sometimes it's communicating too much. Remember, I got called once for a director level in accounting, who would ramble and ramble and ramble and ramble.
00:40:33.190 --> 00:40:55.109 Brian Underhill: and go on and on and on, and people were like about to kill themselves having, if they got stuck in a conversation with them. I think we've seen these people. Yeah, you know, it's like, Oh, no, I see him coming. I got him going across the street. No, you know, it's 1 of those types of people, right? So he's over communicating and and going on tangent. So it's not like there's a logic behind the over communication.
00:40:55.495 --> 00:40:59.739 Brian Underhill: They were desperate for us to come in and help him.
00:41:01.130 --> 00:41:10.430 Brian Underhill: fix that and and that's fixable more or less. I don't know. Sometimes I find with those people that talk too much. I don't. I keep trying to show that I'm
00:41:10.750 --> 00:41:19.909 Brian Underhill: getting disinterested, and somehow they don't always read it. So you know, someone speak up, and that's often our job as a coach is to give them that feedback and say, Hey, let's take a look at this.
00:41:19.910 --> 00:41:44.579 Mira Brancu: I'm curious. Because there are leaders out there that often have to manage people who communicate in lots of different ways, and that is one of the styles that is like the hardest, because it takes over an entire meeting, you know. What would you recommend to a leader trying to give feedback or help, or coach up somebody who
00:41:44.750 --> 00:41:46.949 Mira Brancu: has this tendency.
00:41:47.240 --> 00:41:55.260 Brian Underhill: One reason why others don't necessarily interrupt or adjust. Stop this person. So we're talking about the person talking too much.
00:41:55.550 --> 00:42:00.944 Brian Underhill: you know, is, is, they don't want to be rude, right? They don't want to interrupt or or whatnot. And in the
00:42:01.650 --> 00:42:08.999 Brian Underhill: Sometimes these people need the awareness a lot of times they don't. That's often one of the largest pieces of it. They don't realize that.
00:42:09.170 --> 00:42:19.989 Brian Underhill: And you know, it's funny is today there's even meeting software that could be on the meeting with you, and it will tell you what percent of the time you were speaking. So you know, there's 10 people in the meeting. You're speaking 60% of the time that might be.
00:42:19.990 --> 00:42:20.365 Mira Brancu: Brilliant.
00:42:21.030 --> 00:42:33.330 Brian Underhill: And you know what one thing I did is I empowered. 1st of all, he was not offended. If I said, you got to stop! You're going on too long. Bottom line this for me. He was not offended even slightly.
00:42:33.520 --> 00:42:54.610 Brian Underhill: so his direct reports had to be trained that they are allowed to time out or interrupt him. And he was fine. With that we even did a session together. I said, Okay, we're going to practice this. Okay? And he was totally cool with this. He would not be even slightly offended if if he's going on a tangent, and people are feeling it that they can call him on it.
00:42:54.790 --> 00:42:59.959 Brian Underhill: And so we actually had them practice doing it so that they could just be the mirror for him.
00:42:59.960 --> 00:43:00.390 Mira Brancu: I love that.
00:43:00.752 --> 00:43:02.200 Brian Underhill: That worked out. Okay.
00:43:02.200 --> 00:43:04.146 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think,
00:43:04.940 --> 00:43:12.379 Mira Brancu: there's lots of reasons for this, you know. Sometimes people think while they talk and they talk while they think, which you know I I will call
00:43:12.570 --> 00:43:31.330 Mira Brancu: them external processors as compared to internal processors who are more introverted. You know they they think a lot. They think a lot. They think a lot. You have no idea what they're thinking. Maybe they hold on to it. Maybe they never even share it in the meeting, you know. And so just like being being able to share with the team that we, you know.
00:43:31.590 --> 00:43:42.310 Mira Brancu: have these different ways of thinking and processing, and if you are the kind of person that talks while you think and think while you talk, you might need to write down
00:43:42.700 --> 00:43:49.660 Mira Brancu: all of your thoughts, and then, you know, condense them, compile them if it's possible. But I also know that some people
00:43:50.330 --> 00:44:00.365 Mira Brancu: they they continue to talk when they feel very anxious, and they won't stop, and they actually appreciate when they're interrupted like, Oh, thank God, I don't have to carry the conversation anymore.
00:44:00.670 --> 00:44:03.970 Mira Brancu: So I've sort of like learned
00:44:05.550 --> 00:44:09.230 Mira Brancu: you know, over time that there are some people that like
00:44:09.740 --> 00:44:13.059 Mira Brancu: just appreciate being interrupted, even though I hate interrupting people.
00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:19.269 Brian Underhill: Yes, yes, and of course, culturally, some cultures are going to interrupt each other more faster, and others will not
00:44:19.510 --> 00:44:48.059 Brian Underhill: around the world. But you know. That's why these assessments can be helpful to know your style in these types of ways, and for everyone to know each other's style. And so there'll be the person who's really quiet, but always has amazing things to say. But they're not speaking up. We know that about them. So let's make sure we open a window, open a door for them to contribute something, and then the person who's going off for too long, let's encourage them to hold on. We'll come back to that. Let's let this person speak up.
00:44:48.480 --> 00:45:15.179 Mira Brancu: Absolutely, absolutely. And some of that is also learning. Meeting management, right facilitating meetings is something not a lot of leaders just automatically know and pick up, but it is part of you know it. It is an important skill set to be able to, you know, facilitate a conversation where you hear all voices, and where you sort of like moderate. Who's you know? Who's entering? Who's, you know, you know, exiting the the conversation. That kind of thing.
00:45:15.420 --> 00:45:15.940 Mira Brancu: Alright.
00:45:15.940 --> 00:45:16.350 Brian Underhill: Sure.
00:45:16.350 --> 00:45:28.520 Mira Brancu: We are reaching another ad break. I believe this is our last ad break before the end. Here you are listening to the hard skills with me, Mira Branco and our guest today, Brian Underhill, and when we come back
00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:36.620 Mira Brancu: you will hear Number 5 and Number 6 of his 7 great leadership mistakes. We'll be right back in just a moment.
00:47:12.340 --> 00:47:23.430 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Brian Underhill, of Coach Source. We have gone through number 7,
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:32.200 Mira Brancu: 1, 2, 3, 4 of the 7 great mistakes that leaders make. So let's move into number 5. What is number 5?
00:47:33.150 --> 00:47:44.790 Brian Underhill: Well, I joke. I joke that the world must have gone to some conference. I was not at about 20 years ago, where a certain term came to the forefront that I had never heard before. But it's very common. Today.
00:47:44.980 --> 00:47:53.499 Brian Underhill: I'll illustrate that with one Hr. Person client called actually Head of sales called and said, Hey, we have a like a director of sales.
00:47:53.740 --> 00:47:58.270 Brian Underhill: and we need them to have more executive presence.
00:47:58.270 --> 00:48:06.570 Mira Brancu: Yeah, there's the term executive presence. And I had to learn more. What does this mean?
00:48:06.780 --> 00:48:12.889 Brian Underhill: And so in it can mean but many things. By the way. In this person's case the
00:48:13.050 --> 00:48:25.569 Brian Underhill: the description was, he looks and sounds like a truck driver. Now, I don't know if I can even say that today anymore, because I don't want to be offensive to to to folks, but that's what they said to me back then.
00:48:26.308 --> 00:48:31.190 Brian Underhill: And so that's how they described executive presence. So they felt like he wasn't.
00:48:31.610 --> 00:48:35.009 Brian Underhill: You know, the way he looked the way he spoke, etc.
00:48:35.180 --> 00:48:50.509 Brian Underhill: And so, you know, in that case we had a fantastic coach that did a makeover on him in all ways, shapes and forms, including taking him to Nordstrom with a personal shopper and getting him all new wardrobe. That's not normally something executive coaches do. But this one did.
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:56.310 Brian Underhill: and really refine how he spoke, and it was one of those. What did you do to him? This is incredible.
00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:22.469 Brian Underhill: 1st time I saw executive presence as a term, and one that repeats all the time throughout the different parts of research. We've done over the years. It's often one of the number 2 or number 3, most common areas that companies are asking for. But the term is very broad. It can actually mean lots of things about influence gravitas how you look. Dress. It has a lot of subsets to it
00:49:22.510 --> 00:49:29.590 Brian Underhill: when that term is used, and it's always important when someone says that to say to really get a description of what they mean
00:49:29.870 --> 00:49:35.110 Brian Underhill: when they say that what does that mean for this company, or this particular leader?
00:49:35.110 --> 00:49:56.560 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. I fully agree. Every time somebody you know asks me to help with executive presence. I'm like I don't know what you mean by that? Tell me more. Because it yeah. It's now become a catch, all but you know, for those of you who have listened to this, you know, I have a pet peeve around
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:16.649 Mira Brancu: requests for executive presence when it comes to women in leadership, because it can be an exceptionally loaded term, especially women of color, marginalized people in leadership roles because it has a tone of you don't fit in. You're supposed to look and sound a specific way.
00:50:16.730 --> 00:50:33.149 Mira Brancu: And so I am really curious. I would love to know, Brian. How do you sort of navigate the sort of like assessing? What is the organizational culture? And messaging and
00:50:33.400 --> 00:50:55.660 Mira Brancu: doing it in a way that supports the individual leader with, you know, still, feeling like they could come to work feeling authentic being who they are, not feeling like. They are being negatively judged simply because of their, you know, gender or race or other background like, how do you sort of balance those ideas?
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:58.790 Mira Brancu: Huge thing? I'm just like dropping my question.
00:50:59.240 --> 00:51:04.160 Brian Underhill: You know, and one of the funniest definitions of executive presence I heard was, We'll know it when we see it.
00:51:04.160 --> 00:51:04.870 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:51:05.130 --> 00:51:18.329 Brian Underhill: Which is dangerous. Right? I mean, that's dangerous. That means you look and talk, and whatever like this ideal that we might have, or like many of the leaders here, which means you may overlook all kinds of other leaders that don't
00:51:18.700 --> 00:51:20.630 Brian Underhill: play in that
00:51:20.890 --> 00:51:28.670 Brian Underhill: area. So usually in coaching. What we're doing again is, we need to figure out, what does this mean for this company? What does it mean for this leader?
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:32.040 Brian Underhill: And yeah, well, there probably has to be a discussion about.
00:51:32.310 --> 00:51:37.479 Brian Underhill: Is that what this leader wants to do? Honestly, I mean, they think you need to look like this
00:51:37.600 --> 00:51:54.910 Brian Underhill: or act like that. You know. Is that a useful thing to grow in? Maybe they say you need to be a better influencer, and that's a legit thing to learn about as a leader to get better at, and whether it's here or there any other company you can benefit by learning that.
00:51:55.430 --> 00:52:12.890 Brian Underhill: But yeah, if they say you need to just look a lot like us and act like us, and go do the social things we do or whatever that might be. I don't think that's necessarily appropriate at all, and a leader probably has to decide if they really care to partake in that. If that's not really their thing.
00:52:13.240 --> 00:52:14.400 Brian Underhill: you know. So.
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:18.889 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it goes to the work
00:52:19.120 --> 00:52:34.700 Mira Brancu: that we do around person and environment fit and trying to work with both sides, the the person, the environment, the you know, people who are providing the feedback, the person who's receiving the feedback. How can we sort of create a thriving environment, right?
00:52:35.130 --> 00:52:42.470 Mira Brancu: Okay, I see that we're already coming up close to starting to close out. So number 6, what is.
00:52:42.470 --> 00:53:01.260 Brian Underhill: Yes, 6, and our final one for today can be very damaging and very tricky and very multi months, multi years. So leader is brought in to make a change happen, or a transition is occurring within the company that a leader is in charge of.
00:53:01.330 --> 00:53:21.040 Brian Underhill: or a set of leaders are in charge of, and I've seen this way too often where a company says we need to be. I don't know more aggressive and tougher. You're a really nice culture. We need to be tougher. So they hire a really tough leader to come and kick some butt and make things happen. And it's organ rejection, right? The medical term.
00:53:21.040 --> 00:53:21.500 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:53:21.500 --> 00:53:44.949 Brian Underhill: Really what happens? It's organ rejection. The leader flames out gloriously in about 6 months or so, and the expectations are not met. More dead bodies, etc, etc. So leading change, leading transition and doing it well, it takes a lot of skill, a lot of help, a lot of emotional intelligence, etc.
00:53:44.990 --> 00:53:52.919 Brian Underhill: You gotta have to kind of, you know. They always say culture eats strategy for lunch. I forgot who said that. Maybe some people say, Peter Drucker.
00:53:53.110 --> 00:54:05.339 Brian Underhill: that's what happens. You come in and you're trying to do something, and you're not able to read how to make it happen and how to get it done. It's not going to work, and it's going to go badly, very badly.
00:54:05.660 --> 00:54:22.720 Mira Brancu: Absolutely 100. Change management is one of those things that is not taken into consideration, giving some time for the leader to understand the culture, and how resistant people will be to such a, you know, drastic change being requested. And
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:37.053 Mira Brancu: you know how long change actually happens, how you know how long it takes compared to what you think it'll take, you know. And hitting the ground, running blowtorch in hand, is not always the best
00:54:37.970 --> 00:54:43.310 Mira Brancu: mechanism for action. So Brian, out of all the things that we talked about.
00:54:44.090 --> 00:54:49.970 Mira Brancu: What's 1 takeaway? Maybe, that you'd like people to walk off with from today.
00:54:50.420 --> 00:54:55.650 Brian Underhill: Yeah, I think the most important point is that all of these are avoidable and fixable.
00:54:56.060 --> 00:55:23.560 Brian Underhill: If someone wants to make change and part of needing to make the change needs means needing to have that awareness. Number one. That self awareness of kind of. Where are you at with all of this right now. And do you have any of these things creeping up that have to be addressed? And so I strongly recommend that you know, having your finger on the pulse on some regular basis of how things are going and how you're doing in all of these areas.
00:55:23.640 --> 00:55:29.849 Brian Underhill: And if improvements are needed to go get help right away, and it could be fixed. It could be improved.
00:55:30.300 --> 00:55:45.459 Brian Underhill: and one can have a fantastic career. And you know it's been said that everyone benefits when a leader gets better. So even getting better by 5% has incredible benefits. Well, beyond that individual leader. Which is why we believe, you know.
00:55:45.860 --> 00:55:53.600 Brian Underhill: coaching is so valuable, for as something for a leader to to improve, use, to improve that.
00:55:53.600 --> 00:55:54.050 Mira Brancu: Absolutely.
00:55:54.050 --> 00:55:54.900 Brian Underhill: It has great impact.
00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:58.370 Mira Brancu: It's it's a ripple effect. And
00:55:58.660 --> 00:56:19.309 Mira Brancu: if you want to find out more about Coach source, you can go to cs.coachsource.com to learn more. If those of you who are watching right now, you can see I'm showing the front page of it. It's fantastic information. And in addition.
00:56:19.660 --> 00:56:22.720 Mira Brancu: like I mentioned, Brian has this book.
00:56:22.830 --> 00:56:49.979 Mira Brancu: Okay, coach me. It is a personal board of directors in that it's got so many of the biggest well-known executive coaches, sharing their perspectives in like short clips. I mean, like 2 to 3 pages per person. I I've already got it all tagged up with all kinds of frameworks and things that I love from this book. So look it up.
00:56:50.636 --> 00:56:55.909 Mira Brancu: What did you take away audience from today. More importantly, what's 1 small change
00:56:56.020 --> 00:57:09.990 Mira Brancu: out of the 7 that you can implement this week, based on what you learn from Brian. Share it with us on Linkedin. You can also find this podcast on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, twitch, apple, spotify Amazon podcasts all over the place.
00:57:10.160 --> 00:57:14.239 Mira Brancu: share with others, with colleagues, leave a review. If it resonated for you
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:24.019 Mira Brancu: and thank you to talk radio Nyc. For hosting together, we will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side.
00:57:24.180 --> 00:57:28.459 Mira Brancu: Thank you for joining me and Brian Underhill today on this journey.
00:57:28.670 --> 00:57:38.039 Mira Brancu: This is Dr. Mira Branco, signing off until next time. Stay, steady, stay present, and keep building those hard skills.
00:57:38.260 --> 00:57:40.449 Mira Brancu: Thanks, everybody. Take care.
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