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EPISODE SUMMARY:
Ever feel like workplace politics favors extroverts? Learn three powerful strategies that turn thoughtful leadership into a strategic advantage—and why careful observation beats being the loudest voice in the room. In this episode you will learn three powerful strategies that turn thoughtful leadership into a strategic advantage—and why careful observation beats being the loudest voice in the room.
EPISODE SUMMARY:
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
Ever feel like workplace politics favors extroverts? In this episode, you'll learn why introverted leaders (or leaders who prefer introversion) often hold untapped advantages in navigating complex organizational dynamics. Drawing from 20 years of negotiation expertise––and as an introvert herself––Cynthia Pong, JD, shares three practical strategies for building influence authentically while reframing how we think about power dynamics in the workplace. Whether you're leading teams, navigating matrixed organizations, or building cross-functional relationships, introverts and extroverts alike will discover how to leverage their natural strengths to shape outcomes and advance organizational goals—without compromising their values or contorting their personality.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Cynthia Pong, JD, brings 20 years of negotiation expertise and strategic leadership advising to her work as an executive coach. A Forbes Contributor on Leadership Strategy and LinkedIn Top Voice, her insights on power, influence, and workplace dynamics have been featured in Harvard Business Review, The Atlantic, and major networks. A former public defender, she earned her law degree from NYU and graduated from Brown University with a degree in Ethnic Studies. Her Anthem Award-winning Leadership Accelerator program equips leaders to navigate complex organizational politics while staying authentic, with graduates securing prestigious fellowships at the White House, Harvard, and Stanford. She is the author of Don't Stay in Your Lane: The Career Change Guide for Women of Color.
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
www.gotowerscope.com
https://linkedin.com/in/embracechangenyc/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cynthiapong/
https://www.youtube.com/embracechangenyc
https://instagram.com/embracechangenyc/
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https://www.embracechange.nyc/
https://www.embracechange.nyc/book
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
On this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu and guest Cynthia Pong explore how introverted leaders can not only succeed but thrive—especially in complex, high-pressure environments. They debunk the myth that effective leadership requires extroversion, emphasizing how introverts bring powerful, often underestimated strengths like deep listening, empathy, and thoughtfulness to leadership and team dynamics. For leaders navigating uncertainty or burnout, they stress the importance of aligning with your authentic leadership identity and building a framework to lead with clarity, resilience, and purpose.
Dr. Mira Brancu and Cynthia Pong dive deeper into how societal expectations around leadership often exclude or undervalue introverted individuals—especially when layered with race, gender, and other intersecting identities. They call for leaders to challenge unconscious biases and create inclusive environments that honor diverse processing styles, communication preferences, and strengths. Backed by research showing introverted leaders can drive 28% higher productivity on engaged teams, this conversation makes a compelling case for embracing “quiet leadership” as a powerful, strategic asset in today’s overstimulated world.
Dr. Mira Brancu and Cynthia Pong explore how introverted leaders can thrive by aligning their strengths with the needs of the moment—especially during times of chaos when stability, thoughtfulness, and emotional grounding are in high demand. They emphasize the importance of recognizing when burnout stems not from personal failure, but from a mismatch between one's natural style and the surrounding work environment. By reframing introversion as a leadership asset and creating visibility on their own terms, introverts can lead with authenticity, impact, and strategic clarity.
Cynthia Pong and Dr. Mira Brancu wrap up their conversation with powerful, real-world insights into how introverted professionals—particularly women and people of color—can navigate common workplace challenges like being overlooked or struggling to self-advocate. They highlight the importance of redefining visibility, aligning personal values with professional goals, and rejecting internalized messaging that limits authentic leadership. Through intentional reflection, purpose-driven action, and supportive coaching, introverted leaders can carve out meaningful paths to impact—on their own terms.
00:00:52.690 --> 00:01:06.829 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills show where we take a deep dive into the most challenging soft skills required to navigate leadership, uncertainty, complexities and change today and into the future.
00:01:07.010 --> 00:01:12.049 Mira Brancu: I'm your host, Dr. Mira Bronchi, psychologist, leadership, consultant and founder of Towerscope.
00:01:12.340 --> 00:01:22.059 Mira Brancu: and I am super excited to talk with today's guest. She and I have not met until right now.
00:01:22.740 --> 00:01:23.600 Mira Brancu: but
00:01:23.980 --> 00:01:36.649 Mira Brancu: we read about her areas of interest and influence, and I swear my assistant and I were like, Oh, my gosh! She's totally on the same wavelength out of the many topics we could talk about today.
00:01:37.110 --> 00:01:44.250 Mira Brancu: We are talking about introverted leaders. There's lots of other areas we can talk about. That's the one we're focusing on today.
00:01:44.570 --> 00:01:48.840 Mira Brancu: And you know, start thinking about like, have you ever felt like
00:01:49.180 --> 00:01:54.470 Mira Brancu: the only way you could effectively navigate workplace politics is by being extroverted.
00:01:54.870 --> 00:01:56.730 Mira Brancu: Nope. Not true
00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:11.209 Mira Brancu: introverted leaders often hold untapped advantages in navigating organizational politics, and we are here to talk about why and how, and our own introverted leadership journeys. So whether you're introverted or extroverted.
00:02:11.970 --> 00:02:19.220 Mira Brancu: or a leader managing teams, or simply just trying to support your colleagues. This is a conversation for you.
00:02:20.420 --> 00:02:21.960 Mira Brancu: Welcome, Cynthia.
00:02:22.610 --> 00:02:26.744 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Thank you so much, Mira. I'm delighted to be here and love this topic. Obviously.
00:02:27.020 --> 00:02:36.049 Mira Brancu: Yes, yes, now I'm gonna leave you on the edge of your seats for just a second, because I have one last quick announcement before we get into it.
00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:54.719 Mira Brancu: I've had a lot of discussions in the last 2 to 3 weeks with my clients about feeling stuck, feeling overwhelmed, looking for new ways to balance, keeping themselves and their team members engaged while feeling like they themselves must focus on preparing backup plans in case they lose their jobs.
00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:07.759 Mira Brancu: And I've been writing in my newsletter about identifying and overcoming learned helplessness. That sort of combination of feeling stuck or so overwhelmed that it holds us back from taking any action that could help us and others.
00:03:08.200 --> 00:03:16.200 Mira Brancu: So if that piece resonates for you, it has made me think a lot about offering a workshop on some of this.
00:03:16.480 --> 00:03:36.300 Mira Brancu: when you face any leadership challenges, including right now having a clear set of principles or a framework for taking action, making decisions, it helps you feel more confident and grounded in the actions that you might want to take. And each time you face a new uncertainty, an opportunity, a challenge, or a role.
00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.689 Mira Brancu: It's helpful to just revisit and revise your framework.
00:03:40.170 --> 00:03:46.490 Mira Brancu: So that includes just reflecting on questions like, How do I show up as a leader? Now.
00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:50.589 Mira Brancu: who must I become to live up to this moment?
00:03:50.950 --> 00:03:58.380 Mira Brancu: What have I overcome that has made me more resilient, effective? And what must I still overcome
00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:04.460 Mira Brancu: which strengths could best help me navigate current leadership challenges and which might get in the way.
00:04:05.020 --> 00:04:12.370 Mira Brancu: And is it okay to show up for my team as my authentic self when my authentic self right now is exhausted, worried, and stressed.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:17.710 Mira Brancu: Would it be more helpful to my team if I don't show up fully, authentically like that?
00:04:18.709 --> 00:04:37.419 Mira Brancu: These are questions of identity. Our identity is not just a static set of personality characteristics, our upbringing, our environment and our context does shape it. And if you're looking for some support to start answering questions like this to help you take a more intentional action in your leadership role or journey.
00:04:37.580 --> 00:04:43.990 Mira Brancu: I put together this workshop on May 21, st it's called developing and defining your leadership identity in 2025.
00:04:44.180 --> 00:04:55.009 Mira Brancu: It includes a leadership assessment, several tools to help you explore how to apply your leadership, style and identity to current leadership challenges, decisions, transitions, people management.
00:04:56.100 --> 00:05:23.670 Mira Brancu: Right now it's open by private invitation to my newsletter subscribers only so they get a special preferred subscriber price if they register by April 18.th So if you hop on my newsletter before then you can receive that access, or you can wait until I announce it publicly. But I just wanted you all to hear that, and to think about it, and to consider whether this might be the time for that kind of thing. Now.
00:05:24.330 --> 00:05:25.869 Mira Brancu: in that context.
00:05:26.030 --> 00:05:34.820 Mira Brancu: Cynthia and I are both really interested in leadership identity, and how to sort of identify.
00:05:35.480 --> 00:06:00.270 Mira Brancu: what are my sort of inner strengths, my innate strengths, the things that maybe can rise to the occasion right now, and I think we'll probably get into some of that as well. So let me introduce her right now. Cynthia. Pang, jd, so she's a lawyer by trade, brings 20 years of negotiation, expertise, and strategic leadership, advising to her work as an executive coach.
00:06:00.500 --> 00:06:12.599 Mira Brancu: Her insights on power, influence, and workplace. Dynamics have been featured in Harvard Business Review, the Atlantic, Forbes, and other major networks. She has a law degree from Nyu.
00:06:12.900 --> 00:06:15.670 Mira Brancu: and is a former public defender.
00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:20.460 Mira Brancu: and prior to that she graduated from Brown University with a degree in ethnic studies.
00:06:20.750 --> 00:06:40.499 Mira Brancu: her anthem award winning leadership accelerator program, equips leaders to navigate complex organizational politics while staying authentic with graduates securing prestigious fellowships at the White House, Harvard Stanford. Amazing! And she is the author of Don't stay in your lane. The career change guide for women of color.
00:06:40.880 --> 00:06:48.700 Mira Brancu: So with all of that in mind, I'm super curious to start with your original trade
00:06:49.060 --> 00:06:52.144 Mira Brancu: as a lawyer and a public defender. So
00:06:53.130 --> 00:06:55.669 Mira Brancu: I wonder, did you know back, then.
00:06:55.980 --> 00:07:04.110 Mira Brancu: that you were sort of leading with an introverted identity as a lawyer? And if so.
00:07:04.772 --> 00:07:06.099 Mira Brancu: or if not.
00:07:06.210 --> 00:07:14.320 Mira Brancu: what did you learn from that experience? And how did you sort of navigate the world of you know the public defender world
00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:15.640 Mira Brancu: as an introvert.
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:28.940 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I love that question. Thank you for the super kind intro. So I didn't. I didn't have a lot of awareness around being an introvert when I was a lawyer, and when I was a practicing public defender, which is interesting because
00:07:28.940 --> 00:07:48.669 Cynthia Pong, she/her: the whole reason for my pivot was because I had a really intense experience of burnout in that job. And I talk about this in one of my keynotes. Whole self entrepreneurship. Lead with your identities, idiosyncrasies and values. I talk about how my Introversion was a big piece of what actually drove me out of that work.
00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:53.709 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Because it's you know, it's high stakes, high volume, high stress work
00:07:53.810 --> 00:08:12.199 Cynthia Pong, she/her: constantly. There's a million things coming at you. It's just like very overstimulating. And I didn't realize that I really just thought at the time, Mira, like I just got to get better at dealing with this. You know. I should have like build up more resilience, you know, like you were saying, and like stuff like that. But the job required a lot of
00:08:12.670 --> 00:08:37.780 Cynthia Pong, she/her: me, basically covering in an extroverted way, like, you know, Court, you have to speak up. You have to advocate. You are an advocate, you know, like you really sometimes have to express yourself in those ways. And so, of course, I developed those skills. And I love that I did because they are very useful. But what it was doing at the time was like, it put me kind of so skewed out of balance that
00:08:37.780 --> 00:08:52.309 Cynthia Pong, she/her: my lack of kind of caring for the introverted side of me, or like those needs really just built up and like culminated in this kind of complex burnout. So you know that that was sort of my experience of it. I didn't really
00:08:52.430 --> 00:08:54.970 Cynthia Pong, she/her: figure that out until later. Yeah.
00:08:54.970 --> 00:09:00.260 Mira Brancu: And you know, it's funny, because I like to tell people I'm a pretend extrovert like, yeah.
00:09:00.260 --> 00:09:22.660 Mira Brancu: good at it. You would not even know. And and there's a lot of extroverts that learn really well how to present as an extrovert to sort of fit into a predominantly extroverted industry such as yours? Right? So I'm curious like, what did you learn from that experience? And
00:09:23.132 --> 00:09:34.220 Mira Brancu: why did you become, or how did you become more interested in this sort of identity as as part of your exploration in the work that you do now.
00:09:34.460 --> 00:09:45.569 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yeah. Well, you know, I wish I could tell you the exact moment that I kind of like learned this, but I can't really pinpoint a moment. But I have that same experience that you've had where people are like.
00:09:45.780 --> 00:10:12.900 Cynthia Pong, she/her: No way. You couldn't possibly be an introvert like they literally think it's a joke that I tell as part of, like my bit or something when I'm giving speeches and things. But it it's not, it's true. And so I started thinking about that like, Oh, that's interesting, like, why do people? Why are they so surprised about that? Because I kind of am sort of loud online. So it made me realize. And I'm very interested always in like disparate impact. You know what I mean, like, okay, why do people associate introversion with like
00:10:12.980 --> 00:10:38.280 Cynthia Pong, she/her: not that behavior. Why do they seem to be like underestimating me when they find out I'm an introvert, and they're like really shocked that I can do something. You know, that is kind of like, just like public speaking skills or communication skills or things like that. When 56.8% of people globally identify as introverts, you know, according to Myers-briggs. So I was like, what is this about? Because you also look at like the top of org charts. And frequently, you see.
00:10:38.450 --> 00:10:54.800 Cynthia Pong, she/her: you know, Ceos, who not only are typically men, but like also, they're that that classic stuff like transformational leader, where they're just giving these like big speeches, and like they're charismatic and all that stuff. So I you know, I was just interested in like, why is there this
00:10:54.970 --> 00:11:02.180 Cynthia Pong, she/her: disparity here. I also, you know, addition in addition to it being gendered. I think it's even more nuanced than that and intersectional. But
00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:17.240 Cynthia Pong, she/her: you know, started digging into more. More recently, and I wrote about this in my Forbes contributor column. But, like the actual data around introverted leaders leading their engaged teams to 28% higher productivity that actually
00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:35.449 Cynthia Pong, she/her: actually did blow my mind a little bit mirror because I was like Whoa, there's empirical evidence to show that if you have an engaged team, and they've got ideas, and they're innovating. And they're like, you know, moving and grooving. They do better with a leader who's an introvert. So I found that very interesting. I feel like that's not often
00:11:35.450 --> 00:11:47.590 Cynthia Pong, she/her: known or cited, and I don't know I'm kind of just a nerd. So like I just got into this, and in so doing, being loud about my introversion. A lot of introverts, you know, found me, and like
00:11:47.850 --> 00:11:49.759 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I don't know. It's kind of great.
00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:54.298 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. And I think some of the problem is that
00:11:55.310 --> 00:12:05.819 Mira Brancu: we often mistake. And usually it's non-introverts. People who are extroverts stake introversion with shyness.
00:12:05.820 --> 00:12:06.350 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yes.
00:12:06.350 --> 00:12:15.730 Mira Brancu: Or anxiety or social awkwardness, and it's none of those. Those are different categories of experiences and characteristics.
00:12:16.310 --> 00:12:18.710 Mira Brancu: Introversion is
00:12:19.070 --> 00:12:40.099 Mira Brancu: just about how much energy. You derive an experience from an interpersonal interaction. And so it's not. It's also not like antisocial or asocial. It's not a hatred of people. It's not wanting to not be with people. It is actually an extreme sensitivity to people.
00:12:40.150 --> 00:12:49.900 Mira Brancu: It is taking in so much of what people have to offer that you're saturated at a much, you know. Sort of quicker level than
00:12:49.900 --> 00:12:55.030 Mira Brancu: that's introverts that need a whole lot more to get saturated on the people. Stuff.
00:12:55.350 --> 00:13:24.979 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yep, yep, nailed it, and it's like you can kind of imagine. It's like a multicircle Venn diagram situation. It can overlap with those other things, but it's not synonymous. And now you can. Since you've given such an eloquent definition, maybe people can understand why I burned out of my 1st job because it's like you're in court. It's an overstimulating environment. There's 5 things happening at once. You're tracking where you are on the sign up list. You're also signed up in 5 other courtrooms. Your clients try and talk to you. The court officers try and talk to you
00:13:25.010 --> 00:13:30.669 Cynthia Pong, she/her: all of those things happening every single day. That's why I just completely depleted into burnout.
00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:32.569 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely.
00:13:33.930 --> 00:13:38.289 Mira Brancu: I would love to hear more about a couple of things
00:13:38.580 --> 00:13:50.980 Mira Brancu: that you mentioned. One is, and we'll we'll touch on this just a little bit. But then we're going to go right into an ad break. Love to hear a little bit about you mentioned. The intersectionality.
00:13:51.599 --> 00:13:52.020 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Introvert.
00:13:52.020 --> 00:13:54.560 Mira Brancu: I would love to hear a little bit more about your thoughts on that.
00:13:54.820 --> 00:14:09.713 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yeah, I mean, so just you could take me as an example. I'm Asian presenting. I am an Asian American woman. I wear glasses like, I'm kind of nerdy by personality. I am also an introvert, and I think that, like there's
00:14:10.060 --> 00:14:25.009 Cynthia Pong, she/her: a number of biases that people may that may come up when people see me, and so they might just think like, oh, she's just like a nerdy, awkward Asian girl, or something like that, and therefore not leadership material. All those things combined together. It kind of like compounds
00:14:25.030 --> 00:14:31.519 Cynthia Pong, she/her: in a way, whereas other people, like a black woman who's an introvert, for example will face a different combination.
00:14:31.520 --> 00:14:31.970 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:14:32.490 --> 00:14:33.607 Cynthia Pong, she/her: The kind of
00:14:34.180 --> 00:14:56.769 Cynthia Pong, she/her: The the bias there that's going to come up is black. Women are assertive, and so there might be some cognitive dissonance from like if they're an introvert, and there's but they're supposed to be quote unquote, assertive. Then, like that, there's different blowback from that, you know. So like your Introversion mine. The perception of that will look differently in the workplace, especially when you're navigating different workplace politics.
00:14:57.005 --> 00:15:05.960 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So I think that's important to understand, because it means strategies that work for you may not work for me. If they work for me, they may not work for someone else. You know what I mean. So.
00:15:06.270 --> 00:15:09.420 Mira Brancu: Brilliant. Yes, I have a million other things to say about that. But.
00:15:09.420 --> 00:15:09.860 Cynthia Pong, she/her: That's.
00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:35.299 Mira Brancu: We are reaching that break. So we're going to take a pause. You are listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Cynthia Pong, Jd. And author of Don't Stay in your lane. The career change Guide for Women of color. We air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern at that time. If you're listening right now, you can find us live streaming on Linkedin Youtube several other locations at Talkradionyc.
00:15:35.570 --> 00:15:37.769 Mira Brancu: and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:25.210 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome back to the hard skills with our guest today, Cynthia Pong. We
00:17:25.780 --> 00:17:42.729 Mira Brancu: have been talking about the intersectionality of introversion which I am so interested in, because you're right. There's there's already the misunderstanding and misperception of, you know, introversion.
00:17:43.343 --> 00:17:47.290 Mira Brancu: And then you you take that personality style.
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:54.921 Mira Brancu: and it can clash with our definition of what a leader is. Quote unquote right?
00:17:55.570 --> 00:18:17.511 Mira Brancu: which in the Us. There's all of these definitions, that sort of equate with an extroverted style. Loud, charismatic you know. Immediately quick, decisive, quick talker, quick! Muted all of those things right? And then you add, on top of that. That
00:18:18.610 --> 00:18:32.730 Mira Brancu: you know, when women and other marginalized identities try to go for these leadership positions, leadership roles, and they try to emulate, or they actually have those skills. All of a sudden
00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:34.150 Mira Brancu: their
00:18:36.040 --> 00:18:55.950 Mira Brancu: they're questioned. They get harsh judgment about it. And we call that weak weakness misattribution, right all of a sudden that thing that is supposed to be a strength is seen as a weakness, because it clashes with the identity of gender right? And then you add on top of that, like the perception of.
00:18:56.450 --> 00:19:06.117 Mira Brancu: you know a an Asian woman, right? And and what's quote unquote, expected, or a black woman, or whatever you. And this also applies to men right like I've met
00:19:06.610 --> 00:19:22.760 Mira Brancu: kind of like large, overbearing, tall men who are very introverted, and you. You also have like a should I? Should I? See him as a leader because he's this large white man, and he's you know he's got the physique or.
00:19:22.950 --> 00:19:23.330 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Right.
00:19:23.330 --> 00:19:27.410 Mira Brancu: Because he's quiet. And what does quiet mean for him versus a woman like yeah.
00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:30.559 Mira Brancu: Love to hear more about like how you make sense of all of this.
00:19:31.060 --> 00:19:42.498 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I mean it. It truly is like, I love everything. You shared that, and thank you for giving the actual term for weakness, misattribution, because it didn't know that particular term. But that's that is the thing like
00:19:42.880 --> 00:20:02.060 Cynthia Pong, she/her: people from different identities can unconsciously, subconsciously be punished for having certain personality types, certain characteristics, certain preferences, if and when that clashes with how they might present externally. So I mean, you've hit the nail on the head right there.
00:20:02.870 --> 00:20:08.879 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I'm not sure what there is to say about it, except that I think all of us, if we care about leadership and we care about
00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:11.459 Cynthia Pong, she/her: being empathetic, compassionate
00:20:11.600 --> 00:20:27.789 Cynthia Pong, she/her: supportive leaders. And I can, I think anyone of any gender can be any of those things, then we need to be more aware of it. So kind of like making sure you check yourself when you might have a knee jerk reaction or a thought.
00:20:28.128 --> 00:20:49.429 Cynthia Pong, she/her: If you're you've got 2 people, and you've only have one spot to promote them to like. Are you looking at them fairly? Could there be things that are making you think? Oh, candidate, A is better than Candidate B, that are tied into these types of weakness, misattributions, or things like that, or a more day to day. Mundane example of like.
00:20:49.510 --> 00:20:56.980 Cynthia Pong, she/her: just how people, how much airtime people get in meetings. I mean, that's 1 that intersects with Introversion ton, right? Because.
00:20:57.870 --> 00:21:27.680 Cynthia Pong, she/her: You know, as a person who prefers introversion, and like the energy doesn't come in that way that you explained earlier. I tend to be quieter in meetings. But does that mean that I don't have great ideas, or that I have nothing to contribute? Absolutely not, you know, but like I love writing instead. Are you doing things on your team where you're giving people options to participate and contribute? Or is everyone feeling like they have to be a certain mold, you know, because that's going to sty me. That's going to hold your team back.
00:21:27.870 --> 00:21:45.769 Mira Brancu: Yes, yes, this is reminding me some of my favorite roles, like, if you're going to be a leader of of a team, of people who, you know, span introversion, extroversion, and all the other, you know, sort of traits. One of my ground rules is
00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:50.000 Mira Brancu: time, equity.
00:21:50.560 --> 00:21:54.970 Mira Brancu: So it so I just share with everybody. If you're the kind of person
00:21:55.090 --> 00:22:13.290 Mira Brancu: that is an external processor meaning you think while you talk and you talk while you're thinking. So you're you're working through whatever it is that you're thinking. That means you're automatically, inadvertently going to take more time up during that meeting. And if you're an internal processor which usually aligns with introversion. That means that
00:22:13.450 --> 00:22:29.709 Mira Brancu: you are likely to be processing so much information that you're not going to be ready to share everything that you've pulled together until like the very end, or maybe, like the next meeting, which means automatically, you will spend less time being heard in that meeting, so can the external processors
00:22:29.800 --> 00:22:50.779 Mira Brancu: try to write down their thoughts before they speak, so that they give more time to the internal processors. And can the internal processors find a way to push themselves to talk through what they're processing, even maybe before it might be ready, so that we can find a way to both. Balance each other out in some way, you know, like, that's 1 technique.
00:22:50.780 --> 00:22:59.919 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Oh, my God! I, freaking love that you can also, in addition or in tandem with that sharing agendas, or talking points, or like things ahead of time.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:27.690 Cynthia Pong, she/her: so that people have an opportunity to read it 1st and think about it a bit before you have the actual meeting. I mean, that can help everybody but you know, especially in times like now I know, that might sound like a really high standard to hold ourselves to, and it might be because right now we're living through a particular period of chaos where there's just a lot coming down all the time. But you know, to the extent possible. I think those are that you're like. Your strategy is brilliant and like it. It will help everybody grow.
00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:35.100 Mira Brancu: Absolutely in your strategy. I mean that when you do that you extract the best out of your people, because
00:23:35.850 --> 00:23:56.930 Mira Brancu: sit with their thoughts and let them process a little bit and bring all of the ideas, not just some of the ideas to the table. Right? So that leads me to transition into you quoted. You wrote this in in your Forbes article, and you quoted this stat 28% higher productivity for introverted leaders. I would love to hear more
00:23:57.070 --> 00:24:01.200 Mira Brancu: about like, how how did how does that occur?
00:24:01.630 --> 00:24:19.079 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yes, and so you know, credit where credit is due. This was an Adam Grant from Wharton and Company, like. There are a couple of researchers on this study. I think they did it back in 2010. But they basically looked at different leadership teams and then looked at the output at the end. I think the example they were using was like
00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:48.510 Cynthia Pong, she/her: folding T-shirts, or something like relatively mundane, you know, to measure that 28% difference in output. But I think the key to really understand there is, I mean, 1st of all, it does have to be an engaged team. So, however, that is defined, and I understand not. All teams may fit that description. So you know, you want to look at all the factors there and make sure you're not, you know, kind of conflating issues or things like that. But if the team, if you've got a solid team and they all they work well.
00:24:48.610 --> 00:25:15.000 Cynthia Pong, she/her: you know, both individually, and they've got good ideas, and you know there's some kind of level of gelling amongst the team. Then you're going to get better results. I mean almost by a 3.rd If you've got an introverted leader, I sort of my kind of analysis of that is like, you know, if you have someone who is really. And this is jumping ahead a bit into our 3 strategies. But like you've got someone who's who can listen really well and like really deep. Listen, and who's able to
00:25:15.410 --> 00:25:28.799 Cynthia Pong, she/her: kind of observe. And like we talked you just talked about like absorbing the information, observing the information and kind of like, you know, just being attuned to all of that. If you've got someone who can do that with an engaged team and then give them space.
00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:37.120 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So kind of. That's where you're either being like, actually silent or metaphorically silent. Let just let them do their thing, you know. Then they're going to come up with
00:25:37.310 --> 00:25:49.369 Cynthia Pong, she/her: better results. And like in this case, they innovated ways to like fold more T-shirts faster. Basically. So you know you, it's sort of it makes sense intuitively. If you've got someone who's
00:25:49.780 --> 00:26:11.840 Cynthia Pong, she/her: has to be the loudest person in the room, and you know I say this without judgment like that's kind of just that the style. You are probably silencing other people, and they're not going to feel as comfortable being like, hey! What if we do it like this, or like I had this wacky idea, you know, which this also ties into like psychological safety at work? Do people feel safe to express their ideas, ask questions, make mistakes.
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:27.329 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So yeah, I think that that Combo, though, like it, really let a lot of leaders who prefer introversion to feel seen and heard in that and give them some kind of credit where credit's due. But I don't know, you know.
00:26:27.330 --> 00:26:34.019 Mira Brancu: Yeah, no, I I I think you're you're absolutely right on, you know. Giving
00:26:34.684 --> 00:26:44.539 Mira Brancu: giving a team time and space to think through work through not feeling like you are the one who needs to have all the answers
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:52.110 Mira Brancu: or assume that you do have all of the answers, and it's not possible that anybody else on the team can't have all the answers.
00:26:52.110 --> 00:26:53.560 Mira Brancu: Alright, alrighty!
00:26:53.560 --> 00:26:57.900 Mira Brancu: It's off the battle right that there! There is some humility there in that right.
00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:59.060 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yes, yes.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:04.921 Mira Brancu: And you know there's there's also kind of
00:27:05.870 --> 00:27:15.210 Mira Brancu: I think your your article hit on something that's really important that I'd love to talk more about which is our movement towards more quiet leadership.
00:27:16.180 --> 00:27:20.619 Mira Brancu: or maybe our desire to move more towards quiet leadership.
00:27:21.820 --> 00:27:25.670 Mira Brancu: I feel like we're sometimes moving away from that. But there is
00:27:26.187 --> 00:27:31.100 Mira Brancu: there's a difference between the leaders that we see invisible.
00:27:31.490 --> 00:27:32.140 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yeah.
00:27:32.140 --> 00:27:33.609 Mira Brancu: And the leaders we need.
00:27:34.190 --> 00:27:35.369 Mira Brancu: Yeah, it's beautiful.
00:27:35.370 --> 00:27:37.080 Mira Brancu: But we desperately need.
00:27:38.430 --> 00:27:39.060 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I know.
00:27:39.060 --> 00:27:40.960 Mira Brancu: To hear more a little bit more about that.
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:47.220 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yes, I I love thinking about it that way. The leaders that we see in the leaders that we need.
00:27:47.560 --> 00:27:50.940 Cynthia Pong, she/her: You know, I think a lot of what is
00:27:52.170 --> 00:28:13.719 Cynthia Pong, she/her: suboptimal, unhealthy, even toxic in workplaces is the result of us making a lot of decisions, perhaps in a knee jerk way, perhaps in a way that we care only about the optics where we are not actually looking at all the data. And we're not taking time to make informed decisions, because we're just rush rush, bottom, line, bottom line, bottom line, and whatever gets us the quick win.
00:28:14.210 --> 00:28:24.370 Cynthia Pong, she/her: you know, I don't think that's a smart way to operate or run a business of any size, because we should think about yes, short term wins, of course, but like really more mid and long term wins.
00:28:24.560 --> 00:28:35.040 Cynthia Pong, she/her: You know. What? How are you setting up your team, your people, your company structure to win in the long run? It's easy to start something. It's really hard to take it into its 10th year.
00:28:35.522 --> 00:28:39.319 Cynthia Pong, she/her: And I think the leaders we need are the ones who actually can
00:28:39.430 --> 00:29:07.209 Cynthia Pong, she/her: help ground us all right now, because we're living in a and I hate to sound like a broken record. But this is a period of time with the overstimulation is like, I mean. I don't know if you've been through a similar period of time like now, it's like the news cycle is out of control. The everything is kind of cascading down in very unpredictable ways. There's so much uncertainty, there's a ton of fear, and I think now is a real opportunity for leaders who are
00:29:07.270 --> 00:29:15.340 Cynthia Pong, she/her: thoughtful, who are more quiet, who are able to listen more than speak, can provide essential support.
00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:25.279 Cynthia Pong, she/her: and also solutions, whether at you know whether it's like a coaching style, whether you're kind of supporting the person to come to their own solutions or the solutions are coming about some other way.
00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:38.619 Cynthia Pong, she/her: That's the kind of approach that I think we need now. We've had way, too much bluster of just people coming in and like doing a bunch of things really quickly, with no care, seemingly, for what was happening before.
00:29:39.115 --> 00:29:47.069 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So yeah, like, I know, entropy is kind of like always on an upward swing. But like, could we have a little more.
00:29:47.250 --> 00:29:48.050 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:29:48.050 --> 00:29:51.100 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Call decision making, you know, a little more strategy.
00:29:51.300 --> 00:29:55.549 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I have a couple of thoughts about this.
00:29:55.550 --> 00:29:56.050 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:29:56.050 --> 00:30:21.759 Mira Brancu: we're reaching in our ad break. So I'm going to hold off. Keep people right on the edge of their seat until the ad break is, you know, and we'll come back. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Cynthia Pong, author of Don't stay in your lane. The Career Change Guide for Women of color. And we're talking about Introversion. Today we air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. Eastern. You can find us@talkradio.nyc. And we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:00.520 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with our guest today, Cynthia Pong. And we're talking about introverted leadership
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:14.180 Mira Brancu: and kind of the the pros and cons, and the impact that it could have on business outcomes. And one of the things that I talk with my leadership Academy about often is
00:32:14.300 --> 00:32:18.219 Mira Brancu: that there's there's pros and cons to every kind of style.
00:32:18.330 --> 00:32:35.719 Mira Brancu: And you know it's not like we're saying, introversion is the end. All be all in all situations, right like. There's plenty of introverted introverted leaders who can be toxic. There's plenty of extroversion leaders who can be quite supportive and wonderful right like. So it's it's not about that, but
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.019 Mira Brancu: it is about thinking. You know.
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:47.530 Mira Brancu: What is it that we need in certain circumstances? And if you have a highly volatile, chaotic.
00:32:48.173 --> 00:32:55.580 Mira Brancu: You know. Extreme, you know, uncertainty, kind of environment. The last thing you need
00:32:55.710 --> 00:33:20.370 Mira Brancu: is someone, then, to come in with all of their millions of ideas and start throwing more at the chaos and instability. And you know, nonstop, because what people need and you mentioned this is groundedness is stability is slowing down every once in a while. And so in those cases, when stability is necessary.
00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:30.559 Mira Brancu: an introverted style that slows down thinks more thoughtfully, carefully, methodically, all of those things are highly needed and valued.
00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:42.310 Mira Brancu: The opposite can be true. If you have a super stagnant environment, and you sort of go overboard. And there's just a lot of over deliberation overthinking over whatever. Then, of course.
00:33:42.774 --> 00:33:49.799 Mira Brancu: go ahead and be a disruptor like, and try to make some change and and do it fast, or whatever. But
00:33:50.040 --> 00:33:52.550 Mira Brancu: a lot of what we're talking about is
00:33:53.110 --> 00:34:15.307 Mira Brancu: how you apply an introverted style for a very specific need and point in time. And right now people are desperately craving that kind of stability and that kind of like slowing down and thinking through decisions a little bit more. Right? So I'm curious like
00:34:15.850 --> 00:34:26.609 Mira Brancu: with with that in mind. How are you thinking about like this? Time and place and how Introverted Introverted leaders can
00:34:27.251 --> 00:34:29.459 Mira Brancu: provide value can demonstrate value.
00:34:29.770 --> 00:34:30.380 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yeah.
00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:59.639 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Oh, I love that question, and it makes me think how and I don't know if this has happened with you. But I've had so many conversations and sessions with clients where they're like, oh, I never thought of that before, like, that's really great question, and they have never made the time, and it's not a fault thing like they're extremely busy. They've got a ton of play, all of that, but like it just goes to show how valuable, creating that space and holding that space, whichever side of it you're on is for
00:34:59.740 --> 00:35:05.109 Cynthia Pong, she/her: thoughtful, intentional, deliberate and smart and strategic decisions.
00:35:05.477 --> 00:35:33.490 Cynthia Pong, she/her: And you know you're right that, like in the 4 piece I wrote about introverted leaders, you know, outperforming extroverted leaders by 28% like I wrote the end of it being like, you know, the future is getting quieter. And it was, I will admit it was kind of like a hopeful thing. Yeah, I also wrote that like a couple months ago. So many things have transpired since then. So it's interesting to me now that I do think the the need for it is ever increasing, like
00:35:34.600 --> 00:35:57.839 Cynthia Pong, she/her: nothing good is going to come. If everyone in your company nonprofit agency, whatever is just spinning out of control. Now, we might still continue to observe that happening. But I think if we have enough introverted leaders, or extroverted or Ambivert leaders who are leveraging, you know this superpower that introverts have to take a breath.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:02.630 Cynthia Pong, she/her: take some time and literally be like. You know what these fires are going to continue to burn.
00:36:02.910 --> 00:36:09.279 Cynthia Pong, she/her: We cannot put out all the fires. But can we focus a little bit on like pulling ourselves out
00:36:09.600 --> 00:36:10.870 Cynthia Pong, she/her: out of the weeds
00:36:10.980 --> 00:36:29.559 Cynthia Pong, she/her: and like what's actually happening? How are people? How are you doing like, you know, and not every workplace is like really safe to answer that, but like in the ways that we can. And then that level of just creating space, making space, showing a person your direct report, a colleague.
00:36:29.660 --> 00:36:50.909 Cynthia Pong, she/her: whoever that you actually genuinely care about how they're doing as a person, you know, that's going to go honestly, a really long way. If you want to look about, look at the actual things like productivity and like output later on, like retention for the ones you want to retain, like brand reputation for people who move on like.
00:36:51.390 --> 00:36:55.550 Cynthia Pong, she/her: yeah. So that's kind of my my thoughts around this. I
00:36:55.860 --> 00:37:05.550 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I really hope that that's what can happen. And to those who are introverted leaders listening like, know that you are seen and you're needed and like.
00:37:05.720 --> 00:37:17.560 Cynthia Pong, she/her: try to try to be more visible to people like show up. See how you can help and support. I think that's sort of the best way that we can amplify and like increase our visibility.
00:37:17.560 --> 00:37:19.140 Mira Brancu: So let's talk more about that.
00:37:19.820 --> 00:37:21.069 Mira Brancu: Let's say I'm
00:37:21.250 --> 00:37:32.015 Mira Brancu: I'm listening to the show, you know I'm I'm in the audience, and I'm like, oh, my God! She's talking my language! This sounds just like me. And
00:37:32.770 --> 00:37:36.260 Mira Brancu: I I feel inspired. I want to sort of like, step up.
00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:48.379 Mira Brancu: How does somebody who identify as introverted become more visible in a world where around them they see
00:37:49.095 --> 00:37:53.119 Mira Brancu: kind of an undervaluing of introverted traits.
00:37:53.600 --> 00:37:56.460 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yeah, I mean, if that isn't like the 1 million dollar question.
00:37:57.995 --> 00:37:58.580 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So.
00:37:58.580 --> 00:38:02.024 Mira Brancu: I was gonna have all the answers. But I'm curious your thoughts on it.
00:38:03.076 --> 00:38:05.919 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Well, I okay, I do think there's huge power.
00:38:06.110 --> 00:38:22.699 Cynthia Pong, she/her: huge power in identifying it for yourself. So a couple months ago, I spoke to somebody who only very recently had realized that. Oh, you know, they took one of these assessments or something, and they realized that they they are an introvert they hadn't known, and maybe they're in their mid thirties or forties, and they just realized it was like a huge
00:38:23.152 --> 00:38:43.010 Cynthia Pong, she/her: reframe for them, because it allowed them to look back on everything be like, oh, that wasn't this other thing like, I'm not just like bad at this. It's really just that I was depleted at the time. Because and through, you know, a whole conference or something. Right? I'm making up an example. But so the 1st thing is to identify it for yourself. And
00:38:43.140 --> 00:39:03.039 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I would say, Give yourself time to really grapple with it, you know, if you're coming to this realization, you know, similar to me, kind of like later in the game, like, think about it, you know, that's 1 of our like superpowers. How does this impact things? Does it change anything for you? Does it change anything about your career leadership? Goals? Maybe it doesn't, you know. But that's step one, I would say, step 2
00:39:03.080 --> 00:39:25.299 Cynthia Pong, she/her: is, I would, you know, recommend if you can share it with other people, and you can do that unapologetically, you know, like you don't have to be like. Oh, you don't have to accept the stigma yourself, and it's not even one of the, I think, most potent stigmas out there, probably so like share it unapologetically with other people, and then
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:50.150 Cynthia Pong, she/her: see if you can support other people to recognize it in themselves, if that may be the case right? So I think all of this becomes like a kind of a virtuous cycle of like supporting, promoting, rewarding, affirming people for their innate leadership for their introversion. But all of us have to find a way to do it our own way, you know. Which I can give an example of that. But I'm also curious. Your thoughts.
00:39:50.470 --> 00:39:54.685 Mira Brancu: No, I completely agree. I
00:39:56.100 --> 00:39:59.940 Mira Brancu: no, I want to hear your thoughts would love to here an example. Yeah.
00:40:00.600 --> 00:40:20.650 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Classic introvert move, you would call it deflection. You could call it good questioning. So the find a way to do it your own way thing. I think about this a lot because I did sort of build my business, embrace, change, and the whole kind of like brand around it in my own way. In part I won't say as a reaction, but in response to
00:40:20.750 --> 00:40:44.120 Cynthia Pong, she/her: how I turned out not to be a fit for my 1st career, and so like, I have a huge network. I'm very grateful to have a huge network now, but I started with like less than 500 people on Linkedin, you know, I used to not use Linkedin at all. But the way that I got from there to like now we've got like 200 K online and all the platforms, or whatever is not by. You know, pretending that I'm an extrovert, and like covering in that way
00:40:44.180 --> 00:41:00.690 Cynthia Pong, she/her: a lot of it was done, and certainly not all of it, but like a lot, was through the one on one communication like this conversation we're having now. And the reason that embrace change started out with its core. Offering as coaching is because I love the one on one interaction. I just didn't want 140 clients at a time.
00:41:00.690 --> 00:41:17.509 Cynthia Pong, she/her: you know. So that was me finding a way to do this thing myself and not being like well, I can never network, because I just don't like the stuffy like you go to a conference room. Everyone's handing out business cards, and you're in a suit and all that like. No, I just found a way to redefine it for myself.
00:41:17.937 --> 00:41:24.820 Cynthia Pong, she/her: And still kind of get to whatever is no end goal. But you know, still kind of got to and and
00:41:25.050 --> 00:41:28.509 Cynthia Pong, she/her: an end goal. Yeah, but.
00:41:28.510 --> 00:41:30.960 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I
00:41:31.110 --> 00:41:34.959 Mira Brancu: a couple of things I want to sort of highlight and pull out from what you said. Number one
00:41:35.090 --> 00:41:36.990 Mira Brancu: is the reframe.
00:41:37.330 --> 00:41:49.329 Mira Brancu: I wasn't bad at this like realizing that it wasn't necessarily inner inner fault of yours.
00:41:49.540 --> 00:41:51.670 Mira Brancu: But a person by environment fit.
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:58.139 Mira Brancu: Yeah, the issue right. Recognize, knowing how to recognize when the issue is
00:41:58.728 --> 00:42:08.039 Mira Brancu: that there's a misfit between how you prefer to work and how you're expected to work, and recognizing that how you're expected to work
00:42:08.220 --> 00:42:14.129 Mira Brancu: does not excite you like for some people, and I've been in the in the situation where
00:42:14.898 --> 00:42:32.460 Mira Brancu: I've been expected to serve in that extroverted leadership role. And but I was like, I want to be challenged. And so I'm leaning in because I intentionally want to learn that skill and want to be challenged for other people, though
00:42:32.770 --> 00:42:43.640 Mira Brancu: they would find it like you did like. This is, this is burning me out every time I lean in further and further. And this is bad for me, and when you realize this
00:42:43.640 --> 00:43:04.030 Mira Brancu: is sucking the soul out of me, and it's bad for me. That's when you know the person by environment fit is not a good situation. So just the reframe of like, there is usually a person by environment fit. It's not just you, right? There's always a system around you in which you can thrive or not thrive. I've been the same person in multiple environments where I didn't thrive versus did.
00:43:04.660 --> 00:43:09.760 Mira Brancu: The second that you sort of mentioned is like
00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:14.040 Mira Brancu: knowing enough about your strengths that you know how to lean into them
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.969 Mira Brancu: in a way that like pulls out your very best.
00:43:18.230 --> 00:43:24.299 Mira Brancu: But also it's kind of like a I'm gonna geek out here like a Venn diagram.
00:43:24.300 --> 00:43:32.029 Mira Brancu: Yeah, like what my strengths are, what I want to lean into, what my environment appreciates about me.
00:43:32.830 --> 00:43:33.940 Mira Brancu: And
00:43:35.342 --> 00:43:49.490 Mira Brancu: then, kind of like, your greatest impact point is, I see a need in this organization that I can offer. And I can make a greater impact because of who I am. That's like a
00:43:49.740 --> 00:43:51.780 Mira Brancu: wow, like a mass impact. Right?
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:59.050 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yes, yes, I know, cause it's like everything is aligned, you know, and you know it.
00:43:59.240 --> 00:44:14.280 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I'm kind of a pessimist by personality as well, so like that may not happen for everyone. But I do wish and hope that it happens for everyone at some point in their career that they can sort of feel that. And I I also am someone who like.
00:44:14.540 --> 00:44:38.439 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I'm driven by trying to find optimal efficiency. You know what I mean. That's like the problem, solving compulsion that I have, and like many others, perhaps where it's like, you see the gap. And you're like, I see the potential like, why, you know. Can't we get there? But it's through thinking in that way in a very like, you know, systematic scientific data driven way of how can you align these. Do you harness your strengths, you you minimize the stuff that's draining you and all that, and then.
00:44:38.600 --> 00:44:43.679 Cynthia Pong, she/her: you know, you can really thrive like that sounds to me like thriving. Right? Yeah.
00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:45.430 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely excellent. Okay.
00:44:45.890 --> 00:44:55.519 Mira Brancu: we're reaching another brief ad break. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Cynthia Pong, and we will be right back in just a moment.
00:46:33.090 --> 00:46:52.529 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with our guest today, Cynthia Pong. So, Cynthia, we have dissected everything about introverted leadership gone in multiple directions. But I'd love to hear some sort of like practical tips and experiences like you know.
00:46:52.810 --> 00:47:04.069 Mira Brancu: what are some of the challenges that the people that you've worked with have faced most commonly. And what have you seen has really worked.
00:47:05.330 --> 00:47:10.260 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yeah, I love this, and I'm sure you've had. You know, I'm interested to see kind of how it
00:47:10.420 --> 00:47:27.449 Cynthia Pong, she/her: parallels with experiences you've had and stuff like that, too. But 2 kind of examples of if we could think of them as like case studies stand-ins for situations. I've seen where the introversion, and it's very intersectional as well. One challenge is struggling to speak for our work.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:37.270 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So you know there's that old saying of like your work speaks for itself. I feel with people who are women of color, people of color, women in general, anyone from a marginalized background.
00:47:37.530 --> 00:47:57.919 Cynthia Pong, she/her: You have to speak for your work. It's otherwise too easy for you to be overlooked, and all the things that's the whole kind of topic. But I've won the client that I've worked with for years. She's an introvert, a brilliant global leader in consumer insights, marketing insights. That's kind of her area. And she's great at it because she loves getting into research.
00:47:58.240 --> 00:48:01.789 Cynthia Pong, she/her: the learning, the curiosity, that whole kind of
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:28.279 Cynthia Pong, she/her: experience and practice of itself, and so vocalizing and promoting her own work so that people know what she did. People know the impact that she had. That's a challenge. So over the years, you know, we've really worked on this, and there has been discomfort when it's come to her like having to advocate for herself in the workplace, and it just really feels like anathema to her. So that's 1 struggle kind of struggling to speak for our work
00:48:28.340 --> 00:48:45.400 Cynthia Pong, she/her: and all that. The second one is kind of being. And we've touched on this a bit, too, but being overlooked for opportunities because you are not perceived to be leadership material. So I have another client who's an introvert and used to work in education. Academia
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:55.490 Cynthia Pong, she/her: just repeatedly passed over for opportunities. This combination of racism, sexism, I would say, and the the introversion but always stuck at that like Number 2 position.
00:48:55.610 --> 00:49:13.770 Cynthia Pong, she/her: and just severely overworked and honestly, things got so bad and toxic in those workplaces, you know. That's kind of almost a separate thing, but very related. But anyway, she totally brilliant? 10 x. More capable than who she's reporting to, which is very frustrating. When you're in that
00:49:13.830 --> 00:49:43.640 Cynthia Pong, she/her: day to day, week to week, it's just it can really eat at you. But the powers that be, you know, one of the number one position to be filled by someone who met certain criteria. So the combination of that just the repeated disrespect of that and the lack of acknowledgment, the lack of valuing, plus how overstimulating and over demanding the work was. It was just a terrible combo. And so, as far as like how to address those, you know, I can get into a couple of things, but I also want to know if you have any thoughts.
00:49:43.640 --> 00:49:54.009 Mira Brancu: Oh, I love these, these are so common, and that I I would love to hear more about how you yeah.
00:49:54.826 --> 00:49:59.259 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So you know, for the 1st client, where it was like a challenge for her to speak up
00:49:59.380 --> 00:50:07.450 Cynthia Pong, she/her: for her work. She also happened to be Asian American. So there's that additional bias of like, Oh, you know, you're you're quieter, like there's, I think, some
00:50:07.550 --> 00:50:10.799 Cynthia Pong, she/her: kind of biases related to, or some assumptions related to that.
00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:31.809 Cynthia Pong, she/her: But you know, in working with her me as kind of the the outsider coach, with like more of a bird's eye view. We've just really made it a priority to work on her self advocacy and make sure she has that visibility and gets more and more comfortable. You know, pushing into that discomfort zone like you talked about earlier to speak about her work in a way where she takes ownership over her leadership because
00:50:31.810 --> 00:50:55.629 Cynthia Pong, she/her: she's like a global director. You know it's not. She's not entry level by any means. So we like made action plans around it. Concrete goals. She set her own kpis, basically around it, like having regular one on ones where she would mention things that she did and present to her supervisor and those above him too regularly the impact she had made. What happened because she was leading this work and all that
00:50:56.213 --> 00:51:11.069 Cynthia Pong, she/her: and the key, I'll just add, for people who are like. Well, I don't think I could ever do that. The key for her literally was tapping into her. Why, like, what was the motivation behind her work. What's the bigger career and life mission she's advancing, and then
00:51:11.470 --> 00:51:20.870 Cynthia Pong, she/her: my my job as her like executive coach, was like making sure, she continued to understand the connection between that and speaking for her work, and why she had to keep doing it.
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:24.020 Cynthia Pong, she/her: So that was the 1st client, the second one.
00:51:24.240 --> 00:51:31.839 Cynthia Pong, she/her: I mean. It was kind of like the ultimate decision there, like she just had to leave that workplace. All of the kind of more
00:51:32.410 --> 00:51:51.149 Cynthia Pong, she/her: smaller tweaks and stuff like that. Those solutions weren't working. It was so systemic in this issue that no individual solution was going to change that. But the work for that client who was, you know, she's a black woman in academia so like there's a lot that comes with that. Her job really was making sure she didn't internalize
00:51:51.150 --> 00:52:06.559 Cynthia Pong, she/her: what wasn't on her and what wasn't for her like. Don't pick up what's not for you, you know it's very hard, and I don't want to make it sound easy, or whatever. It's very hard when you're just swimming in toxicity, not to ingest some of that, but like the job is to make sure you
00:52:06.830 --> 00:52:19.010 Cynthia Pong, she/her: minimize as much as possible, and so for her to continue seeing all of her strengths as strengths like don't drink their Kool-aid and healing and learning from that time, so that she didn't end up in a similar position.
00:52:19.694 --> 00:52:25.909 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Again, like metaphorically and literally so I don't know what your thoughts are.
00:52:25.910 --> 00:52:31.079 Mira Brancu: I love those 2 examples for so many reasons. Number one.
00:52:31.290 --> 00:52:41.420 Mira Brancu: So many people can relate to these experiences, and especially women and women from marginalized backgrounds. Women of color and you know the
00:52:41.950 --> 00:52:48.350 Mira Brancu: I think, what what is challenging is like. You were saying. The internalized messages.
00:52:48.946 --> 00:52:52.599 Mira Brancu: We are told most of our lives that
00:52:53.261 --> 00:53:02.189 Mira Brancu: we shouldn't quote unquote self promote, because it's off putting right. So then, by the time it's time to advocate and share your work.
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:03.170 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Right.
00:53:03.170 --> 00:53:13.840 Mira Brancu: Automatically judge ourselves because of internalized sexism and all those messages that I can't possibly share my work, because it will be seen as off-putting and self.
00:53:13.950 --> 00:53:38.750 Mira Brancu: you know, serving and selfish and self promoting whatever. So you offer a lot of different ways to see this as like you're advocating for yourself. You are taking ownership of your leadership. You're pulling out your why love all of these ways to extract yourself from the negative messaging right? And then the same thing for your second one, you know, understand? Like
00:53:38.980 --> 00:53:41.759 Mira Brancu: I would say, like 80% of the battle.
00:53:42.100 --> 00:53:42.480 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yes.
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:46.489 Mira Brancu: Distracting who you are from who you're told you are.
00:53:46.950 --> 00:53:48.950 Cynthia Pong, she/her: That's a good one. Yeah.
00:53:49.140 --> 00:53:49.900 Mira Brancu: I mean.
00:53:49.900 --> 00:53:50.260 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Okay.
00:53:50.260 --> 00:54:06.210 Mira Brancu: It is hard, when, like you said, when you're swimming in it, to figure out like what part of this is me that I need to work on, because it's my stuff. And what part is the environment around me that has led me to this place of believing this about myself?
00:54:07.680 --> 00:54:10.369 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Oh, my God, that's so huge. And like.
00:54:11.070 --> 00:54:32.420 Cynthia Pong, she/her: it's really difficult, because, like there's no literal mirror for you to see right, and so I say to a lot of leaders in like our community stuff, too, when you are used to looking at a fun house mirror, because that's what everyone's been telling you your whole career, and you know, including maybe your family. Maybe you know your community right then, when you look in a real mirror, you're like, that's not me.
00:54:32.730 --> 00:54:44.859 Cynthia Pong, she/her: And that's I feel like that's the process that coaching can be. And being in a supportive environment. But it's so. It's so disarming. And it can really, I mean that process can be really difficult and fraught. So.
00:54:44.860 --> 00:55:06.930 Mira Brancu: Absolutely absolutely okay. I can't believe that we're already reaching the end of our time together. Tell us more about where they can find you, and especially the resources that they can use. And I'm I'm for those of you who are watching right now I'm sharing. But for those of you listening that she's going to share a little bit about where you can find more about her.
00:55:07.310 --> 00:55:24.169 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Yes, thank you, Mira. So I have a free resource that's super popular with our community. It's called 5 leadership tips for women of color, but certainly anyone from any background can use them. You can go to embracechange dot Nyc slash 5 hyphen leadership hyphen tips.
00:55:24.180 --> 00:55:43.969 Cynthia Pong, she/her: and you can grab that totally for free. It's got the really, not run of the mill stuff. I don't do run of the mill, so it's not going to be things you've heard elsewhere. They're pretty juicy tips, so I won't spoil it, but go and grab that it's free. What have you got to lose? And then, just in general people want to find out about me. Embracechangenyc. You can see all our work.
00:55:43.970 --> 00:56:03.740 Cynthia Pong, she/her: And we talked about. Oh, yeah, you can go back to that mirror. Sorry. The. Oh, yeah. Perfect. The Forbes article about introverted leaders, outperforming extroverted leaders. If you just Google, Cynthia Pong Forbes, you'll find my whole column, you can just scroll down and find it, and be sure to follow on there. So you're aware of all my future articles.
00:56:04.030 --> 00:56:20.219 Mira Brancu: Excellent, excellent, and I already know, after talking with you, that nothing that you will share is run of the mill. I've really appreciated our conversation together. Audience, what did you take away from today? And more importantly, what is one
00:56:20.430 --> 00:56:24.749 Mira Brancu: small change that you can implement this week, whether it's for yourself or for your team.
00:56:25.420 --> 00:56:28.689 Mira Brancu: Lean into it, share it with us on Linkedin.
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:35.259 Mira Brancu: You heard she's got a wide following, and we will cheer you on whatever you choose.
00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:45.189 Mira Brancu: you could also share it on talkradio dot Nyc talkradio, dot. Nyc is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, twitch, apple spotify Amazon Podcasts all over the place.
00:56:45.310 --> 00:56:49.711 Mira Brancu: But Linkedin is where we live. If you want to find us. So
00:56:50.150 --> 00:57:16.160 Mira Brancu: If you really resonated with today's show, also make sure that you share it with a colleague. Leave a review. Subscribe. The stuff that we like to talk about on this show is also part of my research-based strategic leadership pathway roadmap I use in my socially conscious organizational misfits on their leadership journey to learn more about us. Go to gotowerscope.com.
00:57:17.100 --> 00:57:35.220 Mira Brancu: and thank you to talkradio Dot, Nyc. For hosting together. We will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side. Thank you for joining me and Cynthia Pong today on this journey. This is Dr. Mira signing off until next time. Stay, steady.
00:57:35.420 --> 00:57:40.949 Mira Brancu: stay present, and keep building those hard skills. Thank you, Cynthia.
00:57:41.370 --> 00:57:42.790 Cynthia Pong, she/her: Thank you so much.
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