This week, on The Conscious Consultant Hour, Sam welcomes Writer, Professor, and Researcher, Rick Strassman, M.D.
Dr. Rick Strassman is an adjunct associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. From 1990 to 1995 he performed the first new human research with psychedelic drugs in the United States in more than 20 years, studying the powerful naturally occurring compound DMT as well as psilocybin.
He is the author of several popular books on the topic of psychedelics, including DMT: The Spirit Molecule, The Psychedelic Handbook, and DMT and the Soul of Prophecy.
In his most recent book, My Altered States, Dr. Strassman analyses dozens of episodes of altered consciousness that occurred during, or are intimately tied to, his life between birth and young adulthood. Just as significant as the ecstatic blissful experiences are the uncensored and, at times, painfully unvarnished narratives of less elevated ones.
Tune in and share all of your questions and comments about psychedelic experiences on our YouTube livestream or on our Facebook page.
In this episode of The Conscious Consultant Hour, Sam Liebowitz opens with a powerful reflection on how our inner state shapes our perception of the world, emphasizing that our experiences often mirror our self-perception rather than objective reality. He reminds us that we have the conscious choice to assign uplifting and empowering meanings to life’s events, which can transform how we engage with challenges and others. Sam then welcomes Dr. Rick Strassman, a pioneering psychedelic researcher, who shares how his personal journey with altered states of consciousness and spiritual inquiry led him to explore the biochemical roots of mystical experience through substances like DMT.
In this segment of The Conscious Consultant Hour, Dr. Rick Strassman shares how his spiritual journey unfolded alongside his research into psychedelics. Initially drawn to Eastern practices like Transcendental Meditation and later Zen Buddhism, he found deep resonance between Buddhist insights and the states he and others accessed through psychedelics—though his research participants’ DMT experiences were often more interactive and content-rich than the formless “emptiness” idealized in Zen. This surprising divergence led him back to his Jewish roots and the Hebrew Bible, where he discovered a compelling parallel between the visionary experiences of ancient prophets and the altered states induced by DMT—highlighting a profound intersection between science, mysticism, and personal transformation.
In this segment, Dr. Rick Strassman shares the spiritual turning point that led him from Zen Buddhism back to his Jewish roots, after encountering both personal disillusionment and institutional resistance within the Buddhist community. Deeply moved by Milton Bonder’s The Kabbalah of Envy, Strassman began exploring the Hebrew Bible and its commentaries, finding profound overlaps between prophetic experiences and the content-rich states induced by DMT. This exploration challenged the common view that psychedelics alone create prophecy, instead suggesting that personal character, context, and spiritual readiness all play key roles in shaping visionary experiences—insights that ultimately laid the foundation for his book DMT and the Soul of Prophecy.
In the final segment of The Conscious Consultant Hour, Dr. Rick Strassman discusses his latest book, My Altered States, a deeply personal and unfiltered account of his own psychedelic and altered state experiences. Unlike the typical mystical narrative, Strassman offers a nuanced, reflective perspective grounded in his background in psychiatry, psychoanalysis, and spiritual practice—capturing both the beauty and complexity of these states. He also critiques the growing medicalization of psychedelics, warning against reducing them to mere therapeutic tools, and advocates for preserving their spiritual, mysterious essence—highlighting the need for integrity, balance, and openness in both clinical and underground contexts.
00:00:58.270 --> 00:01:20.990 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I am very, very pleased that you are all here with me today. We've got an amazing show in store for you, with a guest that I just can't wait to bring on. But first, st of course, we have my blog post from a couple of years ago. It's a long one, but I'm going to try and get through this as quickly as possible, because I really want to bring my guest on quickly. So my blog post for this week is.
00:01:21.100 --> 00:01:28.969 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: we see the world. Not as it is, we see the world as we are.
00:01:29.450 --> 00:01:36.139 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We tend to think that we are pretty objective, that when we look at the world we see it. As it is.
00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:43.709 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: we are fairly certain about our interactions with other people, and we know what we know to be true.
00:01:44.130 --> 00:01:48.659 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: whether it is about our history, our lives, or our relationships.
00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:53.400 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What that person said we are certain meant one thing.
00:01:53.950 --> 00:01:58.340 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: how our boss treated us the other day was because she didn't like us.
00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:03.520 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: or the reason why our friend didn't call us back is because they're mad at us.
00:02:03.770 --> 00:02:13.990 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We are so sure and so certain that what we think is true. We we rarely open ourselves up to other possibilities.
00:02:14.310 --> 00:02:32.629 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Perhaps your boss got some bad news that morning, and she's upset. Maybe your friend's child is sick, and they are in the hospital with them. There are so many possibilities that we don't see when we look at a situation, because we don't see the world as it is.
00:02:33.040 --> 00:02:35.539 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: we see it as we are
00:02:36.430 --> 00:02:40.989 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: when we are scared and afraid. The world is a scary place.
00:02:41.260 --> 00:02:46.730 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: If we are happy and filled with joy. The world is a beautiful place.
00:02:47.070 --> 00:02:50.419 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: but wait! Can that be the same world
00:02:50.790 --> 00:02:57.309 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: we live in, a world that is shaped and molded by our thoughts and perspectives.
00:02:57.810 --> 00:03:04.469 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: There were things where things happen because of the reason we come up with.
00:03:04.790 --> 00:03:11.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and those reasons are merely a reflection of how we feel about ourselves.
00:03:11.780 --> 00:03:21.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: how we truly feel about ourselves is constantly reflected in the stories we come up with about what is happening around us.
00:03:22.450 --> 00:03:28.760 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: When we feel good about ourselves, then wonderful things are happening to reward us.
00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:35.059 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Should we feel we are unworthy and bad, then the world is trying to punish us
00:03:36.100 --> 00:03:39.179 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: both can be true, and neither
00:03:39.700 --> 00:03:45.799 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: for what is happening is happening, regardless of the meaning we make of it.
00:03:46.980 --> 00:03:51.259 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Why things are happening, the way they are is unfathomable.
00:03:51.790 --> 00:03:57.220 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: There. There may be a thousand reasons why things are the way they are
00:03:57.720 --> 00:04:04.070 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: when we choose only one and latch onto it. We are limiting our view of the world.
00:04:04.690 --> 00:04:10.580 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We love to make meeting of every little interaction experience we have.
00:04:11.140 --> 00:04:16.150 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The true meaning may be something far beyond our understanding.
00:04:16.950 --> 00:04:26.329 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So if we are going to assign a meaning to any given situation, why not assign a meaning that uplifts and empowers us?
00:04:26.830 --> 00:04:31.360 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It is our choice to see the world as a dark, scary place.
00:04:31.750 --> 00:04:37.589 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: yet we can also choose to see the world as a hopeful, beautiful place.
00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:44.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We can choose to believe that people are bad and evil, and the world is going to destroy itself.
00:04:45.270 --> 00:04:54.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: or we can decide to see the good in people and know that they are on their own path of discovery and self-realization.
00:04:55.400 --> 00:05:00.030 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It is not about seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.
00:05:00.150 --> 00:05:11.779 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Rather it is about being more conscious of how we feel, and noticing how that affects our interpretation of events around us.
00:05:12.450 --> 00:05:21.540 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: the understanding can help us navigate the world with a deeper appreciation of who we are and the part we play in it.
00:05:22.420 --> 00:05:27.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: for in the end it is not about who is right and who is wrong.
00:05:27.900 --> 00:05:35.170 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It is about how to live a more kind, more loving, and more compassionate life.
00:05:36.230 --> 00:05:44.289 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: not because it benefits other people because it benefits us, and in the end
00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:51.440 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: it is that, and is that not the type of world we want to live in.
00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:54.510 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So
00:05:55.384 --> 00:06:04.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: wow! There's a lot to this blog post. I could probably spend an entire show just talking about what I I put in this.
00:06:06.010 --> 00:06:08.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: but I think I'm just going to leave it there.
00:06:12.250 --> 00:06:13.980 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: There is always a choice.
00:06:14.110 --> 00:06:20.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We always have a choice how we see the world, and when we're conscious
00:06:21.870 --> 00:06:28.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: about that choice, then we can live from a more empowered place, and I'm not saying
00:06:29.030 --> 00:06:34.629 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: we should look at everything as as rosy and peachy, and rainbows and unicorns.
00:06:36.730 --> 00:06:43.329 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But when we're truly grounded and we truly face the challenges in our life.
00:06:43.930 --> 00:06:49.519 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: they don't have to be scary things. They don't have to be condemnations of who they are.
00:06:49.850 --> 00:06:55.149 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: They can just be the way life is right now at this moment
00:06:55.900 --> 00:06:59.599 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: which will change in the next moment.
00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:16.310 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So that's my blog post. It's entitled, We See the world, not as it is. We see the world as we are, you can always find my blog post on theconsciousconsultant.com, or, of course, on talkradio dot nyc slash blog.
00:07:16.530 --> 00:07:34.549 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All right. I truly truly am honored to welcome to the show professor, writer, and researcher, Dr. Rick Strassman. Dr. Strassman is an adjunct associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine.
00:07:34.550 --> 00:08:02.329 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: From 1990 to 95 he performed the 1st new human research with psychedelic drugs in the United States in more than 20 years, studying the powerful, naturally occurring compound Dmt. As well as many others. He is the author of several popular books on the topics of Psychedelics, including Dmt. The spirit molecule, which is a real seminal work. The Psychedelic Handbook
00:08:02.340 --> 00:08:20.299 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and Dmt. And the Soul of Prophecy. In his most recent book, My Altered States, Dr. Strassman analyzes dozens of episodes of altered consciousness that occurred during, or are intimately tied to his life between birth and young adulthood.
00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:30.900 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: just as significant as the ecstatic, blissful experiences are the uncensored and at times painfully unvarnished narratives of the less elevated ones.
00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.359 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Dr. Rick. Welcome to the conscious consultant hour.
00:08:34.590 --> 00:08:37.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Well, thanks, Sam, for having me my pleasure.
00:08:37.770 --> 00:08:59.159 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It's truly a pleasure having you here. I always like to start off to give our audience, who might not be as familiar with you a little bit of background. So let's just start with what got you initially curious about psychedelic medicines, and what kind of put you on this path of becoming a researcher of these medicines.
00:09:00.085 --> 00:09:03.660 Rick Strassman: Well, I think it was a case of research being research.
00:09:04.129 --> 00:09:12.400 Rick Strassman: When I was younger I was kind of an anxious kid. I came from a somewhat, you know, traumatic alcoholic family and
00:09:12.890 --> 00:09:19.219 Rick Strassman: you know my 1st few months at college. I smoked hashish for the very 1st time.
00:09:19.948 --> 00:09:33.220 Rick Strassman: I began in college as a chemistry major. I used to build fireworks and bombs as a kid and started off as a chemistry major, hoping to begin my own line
00:09:33.400 --> 00:09:35.150 Rick Strassman: of fireworks.
00:09:35.680 --> 00:09:42.089 Rick Strassman: You know. So that was kind of you know the driving force behind my intellectual pursuits.
00:09:43.650 --> 00:09:51.899 Rick Strassman: That 1st experience with a cannabis onion product. It was quite high potency, and it was fully psychedelic.
00:09:52.640 --> 00:09:58.890 Rick Strassman: I'll just purple and green and blue clouds coming out of my stereo speakers.
00:09:59.531 --> 00:10:05.830 Rick Strassman: I was ecstatic for the like, you know, you know truly ecstatic. For the 1st time in my life.
00:10:06.413 --> 00:10:11.969 Rick Strassman: my inner dialogue or inner monologue of, you know, self criticism, and
00:10:12.670 --> 00:10:22.609 Rick Strassman: you know, condemnation and anxiety about the future and the past just melted away. I perceived things about sound that I'd never imagined
00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:29.400 Rick Strassman: I had a shared I'm a shared hallucination with my roommate.
00:10:29.942 --> 00:10:35.030 Rick Strassman: And it all, and all of this occurred within a
00:10:36.070 --> 00:10:39.579 Rick Strassman: you know, few minutes of smoking some plant material.
00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:42.720 Rick Strassman: and I thought to myself, It's chemistry.
00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:49.709 Rick Strassman: you know. You know what is different. About me and my brain. That wasn't the case 10 min ago.
00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:55.470 Rick Strassman: you know, so that you kind of got me on the path of wanting to know. You know how that
00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:02.860 Rick Strassman: worked. You know. How did that happen to be? And it also stimulated my curiosity.
00:11:03.298 --> 00:11:07.760 Rick Strassman: You know, to have more experiences like that, you know, drug induced or otherwise.
00:11:08.700 --> 00:11:18.580 Rick Strassman: you know. So yeah. And a few years later, in college, as I was in my junior and senior years. I was exposed to
00:11:19.398 --> 00:11:22.510 Rick Strassman: you know meditation and other psychedelics.
00:11:22.950 --> 00:11:27.359 Rick Strassman: And you know that began my interest in
00:11:27.470 --> 00:11:32.120 Rick Strassman: you're looking for a biological basis of spiritual experience, as it were.
00:11:32.230 --> 00:11:43.629 Rick Strassman: which began with looking at the pineal gland. Once I started doing clinical research, and then, you know, gradually shifted to the, you know, strictly psychedelic space
00:11:44.360 --> 00:12:01.419 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And how did you come to be the researcher on that project at the University of New Mexico in 1990, after, you know, drugs being vilified in the seventies and eighties. How were you able to get to be on that project?
00:12:02.550 --> 00:12:22.470 Rick Strassman: Well, it was a, you know, 2 year protocol, or, you know, winding through the bureaucracy. You know, one of the chapters in the spirit molecule is called the labyrinth, and it painstakingly details of those you know. 2 years of.
00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:33.540 Rick Strassman: you know, phone calls. And you know, faxes. And you know, this was 1988 that I began, you know, working on this study, or all of the paperwork, you know, required
00:12:34.940 --> 00:12:45.169 Rick Strassman: you know. So it was the first, st you know, serious application to FDA and the Dea to study psychedelics, you know, since the passage of the Controlled Substances Act in 1970,
00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:52.449 Rick Strassman: I had previously tried to get an Mdma study off the ground in 1985 and 1986.
00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:54.459 Rick Strassman: And it was, you know.
00:12:54.680 --> 00:13:07.589 Rick Strassman: you know, quashed by the powers, you know, that were at FDA at the time, you know. So I learned what to do, what not to do this time around with Dmt.
00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:13.150 Rick Strassman: you know. So it was a long process, you know. There's.
00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:17.989 Rick Strassman: you know, local boards required approval.
00:13:18.250 --> 00:13:22.989 Rick Strassman: I think there are 3 boards at Unm. The scientific advisory panel.
00:13:23.150 --> 00:13:33.109 Rick Strassman: the other department scientific panel, and the irb, you know. Then the State Pharmacy Board, and then you know the Dea and the FDA,
00:13:33.330 --> 00:13:36.160 Rick Strassman: you know. So the local
00:13:37.551 --> 00:13:51.259 Rick Strassman: approvals. I could temporize. I just, you know, said I need local approval first, st before I apply, you know, for Federal approval, and I won't be giving any drugs or anything until I get you know Federal approval.
00:13:51.822 --> 00:14:03.130 Rick Strassman: You know. So I you know. I made it quite easy for them to pass the buck. And you know, then, you know, began the you know the you know fairly.
00:14:03.280 --> 00:14:11.949 Rick Strassman: you know, brutal, you know, interaction with the you know the Dea and the FDA. You know the main, your problem.
00:14:12.070 --> 00:14:23.780 Rick Strassman: It was getting the FDA. And you know the Dea to talk with each other. If you were doing animal studies with schedule, one compounds. It was all about security. Who's got the keys to the vault.
00:14:24.140 --> 00:14:27.020 Rick Strassman: Those kinds of things I right
00:14:27.020 --> 00:14:36.380 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: They didn't. They didn't want to see the drugs getting out there on the street or see the study as an excuse to just get access to stuff. So they really wanted to make sure you're serious about what you're doing.
00:14:36.380 --> 00:14:39.369 Rick Strassman: Yeah, yeah. They were mostly worried about diversion
00:14:40.040 --> 00:14:40.450 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Wow!
00:14:40.450 --> 00:14:52.359 Rick Strassman: Yeah. Yeah. So the FDA with experimental human drug studies, you know, they are, you know, interested in the safety. And you know the scientific merit of the study.
00:14:52.470 --> 00:14:57.619 Rick Strassman: you know. So generally, you know, they occupied, you know, different arenas, you know, different spheres.
00:14:58.176 --> 00:15:11.709 Rick Strassman: So that required a lot of legwork to get them to start talking with each other. And you know, once the study was approved in principle. I needed to locate a source of Dmt
00:15:11.910 --> 00:15:12.380 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Which was
00:15:12.380 --> 00:15:24.160 Rick Strassman: Another wild goose chase until I found a you know colleague chemist at Purdue, Dave Nichols, who agreed, you know, to make the Dmt. Yeah, you know. So
00:15:24.310 --> 00:15:30.490 Rick Strassman: it was tenacity. And I really wanted to get this study done. And until they said, No.
00:15:30.700 --> 00:15:33.449 Rick Strassman: I figured that meant, you know, possibly
00:15:33.650 --> 00:15:52.289 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, I think sometimes people don't realize, like, really, how complicated it is to put something like this together and it and it like, you say it takes a lot of tenacity, a lot of energy, a lot of contacts, a lot of resourcefulness that a different researcher might have said, this is just too much trouble. I'm not going to bother
00:15:53.340 --> 00:16:02.369 Rick Strassman: Well, you know. You know, things really opened up once. I, you know, contacted or you know, located. I'm a physician
00:16:02.980 --> 00:16:07.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: On or in. You know the department of the FDA
00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:18.050 Rick Strassman: Who could start to? You know, smooth, you know the path, you know. It's it's interesting, or it's ironic, or you know, some term or another, you know.
00:16:18.510 --> 00:16:26.569 Rick Strassman: The you know fellow, I'm at FDA, you know that allowed, or you made things possible, you you know, as Curtis right.
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.055 Rick Strassman: and
00:16:29.800 --> 00:16:41.329 Rick Strassman: a number of years later. You know the oxycontin, you know. File, you know, landed on Curtis's desk as well. Yeah. So he was. You know the fellow who.
00:16:41.670 --> 00:16:47.540 Rick Strassman: you know, gave the FDA stamp of approval. Doxy content a few years later, you know. So
00:16:48.130 --> 00:16:51.609 Rick Strassman: yeah, that's kind of an interesting turn of events.
00:16:51.790 --> 00:16:59.399 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see. I see, okay, alright, wonderful. So we're gonna take a quick break when we come back.
00:16:59.540 --> 00:17:21.330 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I would like to kind of talk about your sort of spiritual evolution in the process of this scientific evolution that was kind of happening hand in hand, and where that led you to. And I do want to get to that place eventually, where we're talking about sort of how the science and the spirituality came together.
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:23.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Okay.
00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:24.400 Rick Strassman: Yes.
00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:47.680 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Wonderful. So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. We do this every Thursday 12 noon to one Pm. Eastern time, right here on Talkradio, dot Nyc. And we'll be right back with our guest, Dr. Rick Strassman, author of the book, the Dmt. The Spirit molecule, and then his newest book, My Altered States. In just a moment
00:19:33.870 --> 00:19:49.990 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And welcome back to the conscious consult now are awakening humanity. I see my loyal listener, Patty Brand, is back with us on Youtube today. Thank you, Patty, for joining us for the show today, Dr. Rick. So
00:19:50.590 --> 00:20:08.499 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: while you were conducting this research, you were also, after that initial experience, you were also finding a path for yourself in terms of your spiritual life in terms of you know your belief systems. I'm curious
00:20:08.760 --> 00:20:14.420 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: what that was like and how maybe it related to your interest in psychedelics.
00:20:15.550 --> 00:20:30.330 Rick Strassman: Right well. In California, in the late sixties, early seventies there was an influx of both psychedelic drugs, but also Eastern religious schools, methods of meditation.
00:20:30.936 --> 00:20:34.270 Rick Strassman: You know. So you know, back then I
00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:41.661 Rick Strassman: I was getting a little burnt out on taking Lsd every weekend and thought I'd give my brain a rest. And I learned,
00:20:42.150 --> 00:20:52.169 Rick Strassman: you know, transcendental meditation in 1971 or 72, yeah. And I enjoyed, you know, the feeling of relaxation. It certainly wasn't psychedelic
00:20:53.610 --> 00:20:55.389 Rick Strassman: And I
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:18.440 Rick Strassman: you know, kind of, you know, drifted away from from Tm. I wasn't all that interested in Hinduism, you know the Bhagavad. You know the Bhagavad, Gita and Yamaha Rishi's lectures weren't especially inspiring. It so happened that there was a class at Stanford by one of the newly minted graduate students.
00:21:19.126 --> 00:21:34.470 Rick Strassman: from the University of Wisconsin, who got a Phd. In Buddhism, which was a thing you know. Back then, you know, the Department of Defense was worried about these monks, you know, starting themselves on fire
00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:36.120 Rick Strassman: in Vietnam.
00:21:36.260 --> 00:21:49.360 Rick Strassman: and they, you know, funded a number of major universities to start departments of Buddhist studies. Well, you know, like is Buddhism a national security risk? You know. What is Buddhism?
00:21:49.847 --> 00:21:55.570 Rick Strassman: And you know. So one of the you know. Graduates ended up at Stanford, and I took
00:21:55.810 --> 00:22:01.789 Rick Strassman: a you know course on Indian Buddhism, you know, which is, you know, the original Buddhism? Yeah. And I love Buddhism.
00:22:02.340 --> 00:22:04.240 Rick Strassman: And I was kind of.
00:22:04.560 --> 00:22:10.600 Rick Strassman: you know, kind of a, you know cheerleader for a year or so after learning about it. It, you know fit in with
00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:31.160 Rick Strassman: the flashes of insight that I had gotten on psychedelics about things not being quite what they seem to be. You know that there was another way of viewing reality that you know there was a portentousness and a significance to everyday life that was there, but it eluded me beyond just those flashes of insight, and in
00:22:31.300 --> 00:22:41.979 Rick Strassman: and in Buddhism I you found at least a, you know, cognitive model, ethical model, a moral model which
00:22:42.430 --> 00:22:52.189 Rick Strassman: you know, comported with those, you know, flashes of insight, and those you know, feelings of certainty which I had, you know, glimpsed in the psychedelic state
00:22:53.017 --> 00:23:01.559 Rick Strassman: and from an academic point of view. The descriptions of some of the effects of Eastern meditations were quite similar
00:23:01.700 --> 00:23:06.740 Rick Strassman: to what people would describe on a big psychedelic experience. Extreme emotions
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:12.289 Rick Strassman: bliss, you know terror, you know, visions, omen, voices out of body, experiences
00:23:12.890 --> 00:23:15.390 Rick Strassman: insights into the nature of
00:23:15.848 --> 00:23:19.910 Rick Strassman: of reality, you know. So they kind of went hand in hand.
00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:29.989 Rick Strassman: you know. So a few years after that, I started to study Buddhism and to practice it, you know, seriously, you know, personally
00:23:30.463 --> 00:23:33.460 Rick Strassman: you know, under the supervision of a Zen order
00:23:33.852 --> 00:23:40.430 Rick Strassman: and I was ordained as a Buddhist got, you know, married at the monastery. Well, I'm as a lay Buddhist, I would never became a monk.
00:23:41.175 --> 00:23:45.800 Rick Strassman: You know, started an affiliated Meditation group, you know, hosted retreats and things.
00:23:47.100 --> 00:23:51.390 Rick Strassman: You know so well, and also was.
00:23:52.020 --> 00:23:57.589 Rick Strassman: you know, discussing my interest in psychedelic Santa's relationship to Buddhism, you know, with the monks
00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:06.119 Rick Strassman: at the monastery, who mostly entirely or mostly all of them had gotten their first, st you know, flash of insight into the truths
00:24:06.330 --> 00:24:10.429 Rick Strassman: of Buddhism on, you know, psychedelic drugs, and they agree.
00:24:11.410 --> 00:24:16.129 Rick Strassman: and you know most of them would not have become monks if it weren't, you know, for their initial
00:24:16.707 --> 00:24:24.420 Rick Strassman: you know, psychedelic experiences, you know. So behind the scenes, you know personal and private interviews, you know. They're quite supportive
00:24:24.630 --> 00:24:33.290 Rick Strassman: of my studies, you know, like, you know, my future studies? You know. So when I was.
00:24:33.830 --> 00:24:38.100 Rick Strassman: you know, thinking of a spiritual, you know, platform
00:24:38.300 --> 00:24:48.200 Rick Strassman: from which to approach the spiritual aspects of my Dmt. Work. It was, you know, Zen Buddhism, and you know, the pinnacle
00:24:48.590 --> 00:24:57.770 Rick Strassman: of spiritual experience in Zen Buddhism is enlightenment, or Satori, or Kensho, which is a, you know, formless state.
00:24:57.970 --> 00:25:00.619 Rick Strassman: It's what's called emptiness, or Shunyatta
00:25:02.820 --> 00:25:21.409 Rick Strassman: And even though it's empty, it's you know, it's full of potential. It's bursting with potential. But still it's free of content. There's no words. There's no body. There's no feelings, there's no volition, there's nothing. It's just you merging with the source of being, you know, for lack of a better term.
00:25:21.986 --> 00:25:29.350 Rick Strassman: Yeah. So that's you know, those were the kind of experiences I was expecting in the volunteers. And the volunteers, you know themselves were
00:25:29.964 --> 00:25:37.639 Rick Strassman: expecting those kinds of effects, too, because most of them were practitioners of some kind of Eastern meditation practice.
00:25:39.150 --> 00:25:45.700 Rick Strassman: you know. So you know. Lo and behold, that's not the kind of experiences you know that people had.
00:25:45.840 --> 00:25:59.590 Rick Strassman: The vast majority were full of content with which the volunteers interacted. The personality was maintained, even perhaps strengthened. You know there was, you know, the ability to question and answer.
00:26:00.413 --> 00:26:05.620 Rick Strassman: You know there are emotions. There were effects on body awareness.
00:26:05.730 --> 00:26:19.819 Rick Strassman: you know, so I had to go back to the drawing board as it were, to understand the spiritual aspects of you know the psychedelic state and return to my roots. I was raised, as a you know, in a conservative Jewish household bar, Mitzvah
00:26:19.820 --> 00:26:21.459 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Design was right.
00:26:21.460 --> 00:26:31.140 Rick Strassman: And after my bar Mitzvah I discovered girls and athletics, and you just kind of dropped it. Yeah. But after a while I also began to out.
00:26:31.420 --> 00:26:39.239 Rick Strassman: you know, to outgrow Buddhism. There was just, you know, too much bowing, and you know the hierarchy was beginning to grate on me
00:26:39.450 --> 00:27:02.860 Rick Strassman: as the organization grew became more petrified, as it were. Yeah, you know. So I went back to the Bible, you know the Hebrew Bible and started reading it both for spiritual nourishment as well as another model, you know, for highly altered states of consciousness, and after a while stumbled upon this.
00:27:03.170 --> 00:27:05.100 Rick Strassman: you know concept or this notion
00:27:05.340 --> 00:27:09.429 Rick Strassman: of your prophetic awareness, or you know the prophetic state of consciousness.
00:27:10.070 --> 00:27:16.629 Rick Strassman: you know, which is an interactive relational spiritual experience. There's angels, there's beings. You interact with them. You fly through space.
00:27:17.125 --> 00:27:24.270 Rick Strassman: You know, there's visions, you know. You know, voices all those things which are, you know, the hallmark of. You know the Dmt. Experience
00:27:24.500 --> 00:27:27.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right, because the the
00:27:27.550 --> 00:27:47.960 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: the idea of a prophet, an ancient prophet in the Jewish tradition, you know, angels would come down. They'd have these amazing experiences, and you found a lot of correlation between that and the idea of the Dmt. Entities and the beings that people can connect with and have reported experiences with on Dmt
00:27:48.510 --> 00:28:11.939 Rick Strassman: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so this book came out in 2014 Dmt, and the soul of prophecy, yeah, you know. So like, as I was reading the Hebrew Bible. I was really impressed with the phenomenological overlap between the prophetic state and the Dmt. State, and I made a very careful comparison. You know, that's you know, the middle 3rd of the book.
00:28:12.390 --> 00:28:17.150 Rick Strassman: and then started seeing how the States differed.
00:28:17.540 --> 00:28:39.440 Rick Strassman: And you know there were 2 major ways. One was the sophistication of the interaction between the beings and the observer, and you know the other was the enduring nature of the prophetic message as compared to the message on the psychedelic State, which was mostly personal rather than
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.330 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh.
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:48.619 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: so so you were saying like in in the in terms of the Bible and the revelations that the prophets had, they were more.
00:28:48.890 --> 00:28:49.620 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: oh.
00:28:50.190 --> 00:29:08.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: broad, more enduring, more all encompassing. Whereas in the study, the people, the revelations that people got from the entities were more sort of personal. Their own life. You know what they should do. That's quite interesting.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:19.770 Rick Strassman: More psychological, you know, than religious or theological. And you know, when there were, you know, theological insights, you know, they weren't especially profound. They were kind of, you know, cliches, in a way.
00:29:20.530 --> 00:29:24.569 Rick Strassman: You know, for example, you know love is all there is, you know, that.
00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:30.050 Rick Strassman: you know may be true. It might not be true, but you know. But in either event it wasn't especially novel
00:29:30.390 --> 00:29:33.380 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right? Right? Right? Nothing. Nothing new.
00:29:33.813 --> 00:29:36.239 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And I'm wondering, do you feel that was
00:29:36.260 --> 00:30:05.100 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: maybe because of the societal context that the prophets were in versus doing sort of the study that you know in sort of in ancient times, the belief and the religion it was like so infused in the societal culture compared to today, we're much more scientific, an introspective. I'm just wondering, do you feel like that's more of a societal or context, or something else
00:30:05.100 --> 00:30:09.499 Rick Strassman: Oh, well, that's a huge question. And it looks we're about to take
00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:13.789 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, we've got to go break. Don't worry about it. We can touch upon it, and then we'll go to break, and we'll finish up
00:30:13.790 --> 00:30:19.160 Rick Strassman: Yeah. Okay, yeah. Well, well, it depends on the source of the visions.
00:30:19.652 --> 00:30:26.420 Rick Strassman: Is it from a divine source? Or is it from being injected with a drug, you know, by a psychiatric researcher.
00:30:28.110 --> 00:30:37.920 Rick Strassman: I mean, I think it also. I mean involves you the nature of the recipient. You know what's their virtue? What's their moral and intellectual standing.
00:30:38.150 --> 00:30:41.639 Rick Strassman: you know. So if and well, you know the
00:30:42.020 --> 00:30:53.329 Rick Strassman: you know one of the theories I put forth in the prophetic States on your book is that endogenous Dmt. Made by the brain mediates? You know the visions and the voices
00:30:53.790 --> 00:31:00.059 Rick Strassman: in the prophets, meaning about the content or the information that one extracts from the visions and the voices.
00:31:00.479 --> 00:31:03.669 Rick Strassman: Is, you know, dependent on the person of the prophet.
00:31:04.030 --> 00:31:08.040 Rick Strassman: So you know, there's a couple of differences in which
00:31:08.728 --> 00:31:12.480 Rick Strassman: one, or you know, by means of which you know one, you could distinguish
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:20.375 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm, gotcha gotcha. Okay? So let's take our our break our next break, and when we come back let's
00:31:20.820 --> 00:31:45.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: talk about like what you've learned since then, like what did sort of writing the book on Dmt. And the soul of prophecy, and and what kind of brought you up to the place of coming out with this new book, my altered States, where you're really reflecting on your own psychedelic experiences, but just kind of what was sort of that path. Okay.
00:31:46.280 --> 00:32:04.440 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: so everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. We're speaking this hour with Dr. Rick Strassman, author of the book Dmt. And the spirit Molecule, Dmt. And the soul of prophecy and my altered states, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:59.079 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And welcome back to the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. We're speaking with this hour, with Dr. Rick Strassman, who's most widely known as the author of the book, Dmt. The Spirit Molecule. But he's written many other books on psychedelics, including the Psychedelic Handbook.
00:33:59.080 --> 00:34:23.080 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: One in particular, I really love Dmt. And the soul of prophecy which really talks about as we started to touch upon in the Last Segment, his research into the connection between the Old Testament and Psychedelic States, and his most recent book is entitled My Altered States, which is a
00:34:23.080 --> 00:34:30.649 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: a book around his own personal psychedelic experiences. So so, Dr. Strassman.
00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:56.499 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and it's interesting. You talked before about having this Buddhist practice for many, many years, but then coming back to your roots of Judaism, and it's so interesting. There are so many people I meet who are very Buddhist in their tendencies, or have really embraced sort of the Buddhist philosophy like Lama Mike Crowley, who's a big proponent of psychedelics and the use in Buddhism.
00:34:56.550 --> 00:35:16.300 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But I've also seen how many people within the Jewish faith, and in particularly even in the ultra orthodox Jewish faith have started to really embrace using psychedelics for healing and to help themselves. And I'm curious what sort of
00:35:16.490 --> 00:35:37.500 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I mean you talked about like briefly. But what kind of brought you sort of back, and then got you to sort of start to do this comparison to the Old Testament and the states of the prophets to the psychedelic experiences of your research subjects. Taking Dmt.
00:35:38.730 --> 00:35:41.447 Rick Strassman: Well, it was a bit circuitous.
00:35:42.700 --> 00:35:52.039 Rick Strassman: let me think. Yeah. Well, you know, in the beginning the discussions I had with the monks about psychedelics and Buddhism.
00:35:53.313 --> 00:35:55.580 Rick Strassman: Were more, you know, theoretical
00:35:56.331 --> 00:36:01.420 Rick Strassman: and let's say I, I began studying with him in 1974,
00:36:01.610 --> 00:36:11.399 Rick Strassman: and by the time I was actually able to give my 1st dose of Dmt. It was 1990, so you know, 16 years had elapsed, and I was, you know.
00:36:11.770 --> 00:36:18.120 Rick Strassman: in regular contact with the monks, and went to the monastery on a regular basis for retreats and things.
00:36:18.707 --> 00:36:22.459 Rick Strassman: But once I actually, you know, began this study
00:36:23.036 --> 00:36:25.880 Rick Strassman: and, you know, talked about my findings
00:36:25.990 --> 00:36:33.549 Rick Strassman: and discuss the relationship between, you know, Buddhist practice and psychedelics.
00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:38.800 Rick Strassman: You know, the monastic community became increasingly alarmed.
00:36:39.290 --> 00:36:47.239 Rick Strassman: They, in a way, kind of turned on me in order to maintain doctrinal purity, as it were.
00:36:47.955 --> 00:36:52.219 Rick Strassman: like, it was okay to discuss, you know, psychedelics and Zen practice.
00:36:52.420 --> 00:37:04.649 Rick Strassman: as I mentioned, behind closed doors. But you know to you publicly, you know, make an association like that, especially, you know, when it came to the specific. You know Temple involved.
00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:08.135 Rick Strassman: you know it just, you know, was impossible.
00:37:08.700 --> 00:37:16.479 Rick Strassman: And you know the and you know, the hypocrisy was was painful. But it was in.
00:37:16.710 --> 00:37:21.020 Rick Strassman: you know, service of the maintenance of, you know the purity of the doctrine.
00:37:21.641 --> 00:37:26.339 Rick Strassman: You know. So that was a you know, disappointment. In addition.
00:37:26.610 --> 00:37:32.950 Rick Strassman: as I was, you know, getting older in my forties and things. You know. The bowing was beginning to.
00:37:33.210 --> 00:37:42.530 Rick Strassman: you know. Chafe a bit like if I was going to bow to statues and photographs and other people. It seems like I should be bowing to the Most high
00:37:43.270 --> 00:37:51.521 Rick Strassman: as opposed to just, you know, figures. Yeah. And you know the you know the hierarchy?
00:37:52.660 --> 00:37:54.450 Rick Strassman: you know, was increasingly
00:37:55.010 --> 00:38:12.619 Rick Strassman: rigidified, as well. You know there were yellow monks and red monks and white monks and purple monks and those kinds of things. So it just began, you know, seeming like, Okay, I've been studying Zen with these folks for over 20 years, and I think it's time to move on.
00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:14.522 Rick Strassman: you know. So
00:38:15.490 --> 00:38:27.939 Rick Strassman: I discovered a book by Milton Bonder called the Kabbalah of envy in the mid 19 nineties, when all of this was happening, and it was my 1st introduction to a sophisticated approach to Jewish thinking.
00:38:28.712 --> 00:38:31.929 Rick Strassman: It was a you know. It was a.
00:38:32.150 --> 00:38:36.020 Rick Strassman: you know, very fine grained analysis of
00:38:36.240 --> 00:38:44.370 Rick Strassman: envy, anger, jealousy, resentment, you know, grudges, you know, typically.
00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:54.229 Rick Strassman: you know, fodder, you know, for the Jewish, you know. Mind, it wasn't especially enlightened material, but it was just you know how.
00:38:55.394 --> 00:39:02.700 Rick Strassman: You know. Do you deal, you know. You know, with difficulties in your life, using a spiritual approach.
00:39:03.337 --> 00:39:14.060 Rick Strassman: It was a bottom up approach to spirituality rather than a you know, top down one. If you know, for example, you're in a unitive, mystical, altered white light state.
00:39:14.820 --> 00:39:15.505 Rick Strassman: you
00:39:16.460 --> 00:39:24.390 Rick Strassman: you know you derive your rules of conduct and belief, you know, based on what you start thinking about as you come down
00:39:25.016 --> 00:39:33.950 Rick Strassman: as opposed to extracting spiritual. You know truths from everyday interactions, you know, which is a more of a bottom up approach.
00:39:34.150 --> 00:39:40.390 Rick Strassman: and I was fascinated by that. It was completely, you know, different. Take on belief and conduct than Buddhism.
00:39:40.951 --> 00:39:47.630 Rick Strassman: And you know Bonders, you know, sources were mostly the Hebrew Bible. So I started reading the Hebrew Bible.
00:39:48.040 --> 00:39:57.119 Rick Strassman: and you can read the Hebrew Bible without a scorecard. You need to read the Commentaries, which are mostly, you know, from the Middle Ages, and you need to
00:39:57.330 --> 00:39:59.960 Rick Strassman: no Biblical Hebrew, you know. So as a
00:39:59.960 --> 00:40:00.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Got it
00:40:00.390 --> 00:40:04.280 Rick Strassman: Kid. I went to Hebrew school and I learned conversational Hebrew. So
00:40:04.540 --> 00:40:21.179 Rick Strassman: I, you know, found a couple of you know, classic, you know, dictionaries to start, you know, reteaching myself, Hebrew, especially ancient Biblical Hebrew. Yeah. And I just began, you know, working through the text.
00:40:21.669 --> 00:40:27.800 Rick Strassman: And I was struck, you know by you know the you know. You know the overlap
00:40:27.930 --> 00:40:43.770 Rick Strassman: in descriptions of the prophetic state, you know. Most people, when they think of prophecy, you know. Think about foretelling and prediction, you know, but that is an artifact of the translation of the Greek.
00:40:44.287 --> 00:40:50.540 Rick Strassman: You know, from the Hebrew the word, you know, prophet, I mean Hebrew is not v
00:40:51.078 --> 00:40:56.150 Rick Strassman: which means to interpret or to be a spokesperson for but the
00:40:56.701 --> 00:41:01.679 Rick Strassman: the the first, st you know, translation of the Hebrew Bible into another language was the Greek.
00:41:01.750 --> 00:41:27.080 Rick Strassman: and you know the Greeks translated it as profitees, which means to see ahead or to foretell, you know. So you know, there was a restriction of the concept of a prophecy which was a result directly of translation, you know. So that's why I was keen on translating the text for myself.
00:41:28.350 --> 00:41:45.119 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But many people like to look at some of these experiences like Moses seeing the burning bush and kind of say, Whoa, I wonder was the burning bush an acacia bush that has Dmt. In it. So it was a psychedelic induced experience
00:41:46.040 --> 00:41:56.599 Rick Strassman: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, there are a couple of problems with, you know that idea, you know, like it might be right. You might be wrong.
00:41:56.840 --> 00:42:04.069 Rick Strassman: you know. You know, 1st of all, you don't really need, you know, to look, you know, for any outside agent to
00:42:04.710 --> 00:42:10.329 Rick Strassman: increase the activity of the brain to stimulate on a psychedelic experience.
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:18.750 Rick Strassman: Dmt is made in the mammalian brain in quite high concentrations, you know, comparable to serotonin and to dopamine
00:42:19.344 --> 00:42:27.599 Rick Strassman: it it in it will increase in the dying mammalian brain. You know, which is a a
00:42:27.790 --> 00:42:30.930 Rick Strassman: you know, obviously a major stress.
00:42:31.356 --> 00:42:36.109 Rick Strassman: You know. So there is Dmt in the human brain, and it increases under certain
00:42:36.745 --> 00:42:43.273 Rick Strassman: you know, conditions, you know. So even if there were acacia burning Dmt fumes, whatever.
00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:51.609 Rick Strassman: Still, you know that would only explain one, you know. You know one particular episode in the life of Moses.
00:42:52.532 --> 00:43:05.799 Rick Strassman: You know the experience at the burning bush is Moses is only encounter with an angel, and is a visual encounter. Yes, you know there's an exchange of spoken words, but there's also.
00:43:06.810 --> 00:43:09.259 Rick Strassman: you know, the vision of an angel.
00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:19.950 Rick Strassman: Yeah, so that is actually a lower level of prophetic experience compared to what happened, you know, to Moses, as he developed in his mission.
00:43:20.030 --> 00:43:40.399 Rick Strassman: which was simply word to word. You know, mouth to mouth. You know the spoken word. You know there were never any more images of visions or of angels, you know. So even if it were, you know, Dmt. From a bush, it was still at a relatively, you know lower level than what he developed later on.
00:43:40.720 --> 00:43:41.090 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, that's right.
00:43:41.413 --> 00:43:49.510 Rick Strassman: Another, you know. Theory is that the manna was an ergot alkaloid, and it was like Lsd, everybody was, you know, tripping in the desert.
00:43:50.040 --> 00:44:05.769 Rick Strassman: But you know still, you can take Lsd. And you're not Moses. You can take Lsd. And you're not. You know the Hebrews witnessing, you know the revelation at Sinai. So there's, you know, more to the model than simply taking drugs, and, you know, becoming a prophet
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:21.480 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely and and the way they they play out. And and there are many instances of prophets that that there's no indication of them taking anything, and they've had some conversation with God or some vision.
00:44:26.050 --> 00:44:31.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I'm curious, just because you're you're so well known for the Dmt. Research.
00:44:32.070 --> 00:44:33.989 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: How often have you tried? Dmt
00:44:35.230 --> 00:44:46.410 Rick Strassman: Well, I've had one major breakthrough experience, like I've smoked smaller doses and kind of got close to it. But the 1st time I smoked. It was a.
00:44:46.870 --> 00:44:55.470 Rick Strassman: you know, full on breakthrough. Yeah, that was 1987, 1986, yeah, Terrence Mckenna was at a meeting I was at. And
00:44:55.690 --> 00:45:08.840 Rick Strassman: I was, you know, talking about the pineal gland and Dmt. And he came up after my talk and said, Well, you want to try it? Yeah, so I did. And yeah, it was like this major thing. Yeah, you know. So
00:45:09.110 --> 00:45:22.130 Rick Strassman: you know, smoking, smoking. Dmt, or taking any large dose of any psychedelic is not risk-free.
00:45:22.270 --> 00:45:31.829 Rick Strassman: and I figured well, you know, I got all that I needed out of that 1st big trip. I mean, it steered me away from Melatonin into Dmt
00:45:33.200 --> 00:45:35.920 Rick Strassman: Set my career in a lot of ways.
00:45:36.240 --> 00:45:50.070 Rick Strassman: you know. So I just didn't really see a need to take it again, you know, in the. In the. In the meantime, though I experimented with Ayahuasca, I was a member of one of the
00:45:50.070 --> 00:45:50.390 Rick Strassman: and
00:45:50.510 --> 00:45:57.819 Rick Strassman: legal Ayahuasca churches in New Mexico for a while. You know, drank it in a shamanic setting before that. So
00:45:58.470 --> 00:46:02.570 Rick Strassman: is that the Spondaime, or or or Centodaime churches?
00:46:02.570 --> 00:46:05.279 Rick Strassman: It was on the Udv.
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:06.199 Rick Strassman: You do? Yeah?
00:46:06.533 --> 00:46:07.869 Rick Strassman: You know their headquarters.
00:46:08.542 --> 00:46:10.269 Rick Strassman: Is in Santa Fe
00:46:10.450 --> 00:46:31.210 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Gotcha gotcha. Okay? So we just got to take our last break. So when we come back, it kind of started us on that path which now I want to talk a little bit about your newest book, my altered States, and why you decided at this point to kind of reveal some of your own experiences and and what you hope audiences will get out of that book. Okay.
00:46:31.720 --> 00:46:32.440 Rick Strassman: Great
00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:47.129 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. We've been speaking this hour with Dr. Rick Straussman, and we will be right back to finish up and talk about his newest book. My altered States. In just a moment
00:48:27.860 --> 00:48:50.580 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And welcome back to the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. So, Dr. Strauss, when you've recently come out with a book that's not a research book that's not about, you know, psychedelics and spirituality. But it's about your own individual experiences. Why did you write this book at this time?
00:48:51.566 --> 00:49:00.349 Rick Strassman: For a couple of reasons. You know, one was to provide a more nuanced approach to the psychedelic and other altered state experiences.
00:49:00.868 --> 00:49:10.069 Rick Strassman: Usually they're quite flowery. You know, I took a drug. I had a mystical experience, and you know now I'm a lot better person
00:49:11.200 --> 00:49:14.810 Rick Strassman: like you know how to change your mind.
00:49:15.558 --> 00:49:17.791 Rick Strassman: You know, it's just, you know, it's
00:49:18.350 --> 00:49:24.250 Rick Strassman: you know, it's a 1-sided approach, and it isn't written. Or you know, those kinds of books aren't written
00:49:24.380 --> 00:49:35.921 Rick Strassman: by people with a lot of background in psychiatry, or, you know, religious practice. You know, psychotherapy.
00:49:37.160 --> 00:49:43.540 Rick Strassman: you know, psychopharmacology, you know. So I, you know, thought I could both give a more sophisticated
00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:48.260 Rick Strassman: approach, a more nuanced approach into the reporting, a little more unvarnished.
00:49:48.580 --> 00:50:02.699 Rick Strassman: you know, not with an agenda of demonstrating altered states are good or are bad, but you know they occur bidden and unbidden, and you know, what do you do with them? You know. How do you understand them?
00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:20.700 Rick Strassman: you know. Also, it's a report. It's a collection of narratives of a number of different altered states in the same person. There's there's cannabis, there's alcohol, you know, psychedelics, meditation, depression, hypomania.
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:24.260 Rick Strassman: It's you know, trauma. As a child.
00:50:24.763 --> 00:50:28.520 Rick Strassman: You know. So it's a you know, broader spectrum, as it were.
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:37.969 Rick Strassman: of altered states. And I've been collecting, or I've been journaling since I was a teenager.
00:50:38.140 --> 00:51:01.060 Rick Strassman: and I just finished the psychedelic Handbook, which was, you know, very data heavy, like, you know, doses and side effects and molecular pharmacology. And I was looking around my office. Well, you know, what do. I want to work on next? And I have this huge pile of journal notes? I said, Well, maybe I can, you know, make them into something interesting.
00:51:01.470 --> 00:51:01.910 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah.
00:51:01.910 --> 00:51:12.619 Rick Strassman: So. I revisited all of those you know journal notes, and I also had spent, you know, 4 years in psychoanalysis up to 5 days a week on the couch. So
00:51:12.620 --> 00:51:13.070 Rick Strassman: so
00:51:13.070 --> 00:51:26.925 Rick Strassman: I had been, you know, dredging through or sifting through my past. I'm trying to understand it in a very concerted manner. For a number of years.
00:51:27.680 --> 00:51:29.640 Rick Strassman: And if I didn't, you know, recollect.
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:35.270 Rick Strassman: you know the instances exactly, historically, accurately, at least, I was able to.
00:51:35.510 --> 00:51:48.740 Rick Strassman: Yeah, pick up on the feelings of, you know, the interactions with the people around which those experiences occurred and my own reactions to them. You know. So I'm in a way. It's like.
00:51:49.070 --> 00:52:12.359 Rick Strassman: you know. Freud and his cocaine, you know, meets Hunter Thompson and the Gonzo, you know, self-reporting meets you know Bill Burrows meets. You know, Bukowski. So it's a literary work as well as a memoir and a scientific project, you know, like after each of you know the narratives. I have a reflections.
00:52:12.820 --> 00:52:15.706 Rick Strassman: you know, section which.
00:52:16.580 --> 00:52:26.410 Rick Strassman: you know, kind of explains. You know how the State occurred. You know why it occurred. You know how it took place. You know what I got out of it, or what I did not get out of it.
00:52:27.700 --> 00:52:29.279 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Beautiful, beautiful, you know.
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:36.979 Rick Strassman: Oh, you know, plus it's illustrated, you know, which is, you know, very cool merrily. Chalice is a friend in Birmingham, Alabama.
00:52:37.100 --> 00:52:37.700 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh!
00:52:37.700 --> 00:52:41.242 Rick Strassman: So. I think the you know the
00:52:41.750 --> 00:53:05.329 Rick Strassman: The illustrations are extremely important. For example, I was coming back from the mountains on Lsd. One day in college, and you bumped into this bully who pushed me off my motorcycle. And so there's the picture of me on acid this Guy, pushing me off the bike, you know, so I think it captures certain feelings
00:53:05.950 --> 00:53:17.310 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah. So it gives, like a real flesh and blood experience to these mystical experiences or altered states of consciousness.
00:53:17.520 --> 00:53:33.669 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I'm curious, just I would love to talk about the psychedelic industry in general, as you see it right now. There's some people in the industry who are concerned about the over medicalization of what's happening with psychedelics at the moment, like the big push to make it all about
00:53:33.870 --> 00:53:56.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: curing depression, anxiety. Ptsd, but really these things came from a very, at least, through the indigenous culture sort of a very spiritual sort of place. What's your view on sort of the spiritual versus medical aspect of using these powerful substances?
00:53:57.349 --> 00:54:04.740 Rick Strassman: Well, I think they they need to be separated, or at least, you know, recognized as being categorically different.
00:54:05.222 --> 00:54:11.720 Rick Strassman: I think that's 1 of the mistakes the Hopkins group made early on in their work with with psilocybin
00:54:12.306 --> 00:54:23.279 Rick Strassman: like I, you know, provided the Hopkins, you know, folks, you know Roland Griffiths, with all of my psilocybin data which I had accumulated at at Unm.
00:54:23.783 --> 00:54:45.429 Rick Strassman: You know my grant, which was, you know, funded by Nih. My consents, all my paperwork, the dose response data. What's the medium dose? What's a low dose? What's a high dose, you know, because, you know, Roland was a psychopharmacologist. And I thought, you know, that's cool. He could continue the research in a
00:54:45.550 --> 00:54:49.050 Rick Strassman: you know, straight lace, you know. Psychopharmacology approach.
00:54:49.220 --> 00:54:57.830 Rick Strassman: Yeah. But instead, he went, you know, straight for the mystical experience effects and the questionnaire and all those things. And the
00:54:58.160 --> 00:55:03.559 Rick Strassman: you know theory, or this, the strategy, you know, was, you know, to demonstrate.
00:55:03.890 --> 00:55:06.770 Rick Strassman: The mystical experiences are good for you.
00:55:06.940 --> 00:55:14.590 Rick Strassman: They'll make you less depressed. You'll smoke less tobacco. You won't drink as much, but I think the
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:26.699 Rick Strassman: you know, falling back on a religious, spiritual, theological explanation, for you know, for medical effects. It's a, you know, slippery slope.
00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:37.469 Rick Strassman: I believe, because it conflates, you know, religious experience with medical treatment, and you know religious experiences are not always
00:55:37.600 --> 00:55:43.949 Rick Strassman: great. You know they can be horrifying. You know, Jeremiah Ezekiel, I mean, there are miserable people.
00:55:44.566 --> 00:55:57.609 Rick Strassman: And you know people hated them, but you know, because of their doom and gloom, you know pronouncements, you know. So it, you know, paints a picture of religious experience which is one sided. And it's in the service
00:55:57.770 --> 00:56:03.549 Rick Strassman: of diffusing that. You know that model into the mainstream.
00:56:04.120 --> 00:56:08.240 Rick Strassman: Yeah, medical one. I think it would have been more prudent
00:56:09.153 --> 00:56:27.690 Rick Strassman: to, you know, to say that you know that what occurs in the psychedelic experience when you're combining it with psychotherapy is simply an enhancement of the normal mechanisms of the psychotherapeutic process. You know the transference and projection. And
00:56:28.237 --> 00:56:31.900 Rick Strassman: you know, visualization of conflicts and ab reaction and
00:56:32.390 --> 00:56:43.569 Rick Strassman: catharsis. You know those kinds of things, you know. But instead, it was this, you know, whole new model of like. It's religion, and it's mysticism. And you know that's is what's going to help you.
00:56:44.187 --> 00:56:54.899 Rick Strassman: And I think there has been a you know, backlash against you know that you know the Messianic model, you know, which is contaminating in a way, the medical one.
00:56:56.800 --> 00:56:59.910 Rick Strassman: You know. I think there's a place for both right?
00:57:00.150 --> 00:57:08.259 Rick Strassman: Yeah. I think you can have both. You know, like, you know, there's I think there's always going to be an underground.
00:57:09.092 --> 00:57:17.189 Rick Strassman: You know, psychedelic, you know, culture. A number of years ago I was at a meeting in San Francisco during bicycle day.
00:57:17.410 --> 00:57:29.799 Rick Strassman: you know, with a number of psychedelic luminaries. And the you know, the goal was to start thinking about an above ground government approved psychedelic Church.
00:57:30.030 --> 00:57:40.429 Rick Strassman: Yeah, this was in the mid nineties or so, and so Ralph Messner was there, you know Ralph was like, you know, grad student with with Tim Leary and Richard Albert
00:57:40.430 --> 00:57:44.139 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, I've had his wife on my show talking about her memoir of him
00:57:44.140 --> 00:57:51.209 Rick Strassman: Yeah. Yeah. Kathy, yeah. And you know, Ralph kept on saying, keep it underground. Keep it underground. Keep the government out of it.
00:57:51.210 --> 00:57:51.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You keep
00:57:51.590 --> 00:57:58.600 Rick Strassman: The health care industry out of it. It's working, just, you know, fine in the Underground.
00:57:58.870 --> 00:58:12.599 Rick Strassman: you know. So I I think you know, there's a lot of information and a lot of good preliminary data. You know, suggesting your medical uses.
00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:18.140 Rick Strassman: For you know, psychedelics, you know. But at the same time, you know, psychedelics.
00:58:18.971 --> 00:58:26.239 Rick Strassman: You know, they're you know, they're I'm a portal to some very weird stuff, and to completely strip
00:58:26.917 --> 00:58:43.900 Rick Strassman: them of weird stuff and making them just like the Super Prozac. I don't think does service, you know, to what they're capable of, both good and bad, you know. So I think. I think you know that's where a more concerted effort to.
00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:51.399 Rick Strassman: I guess you know Buff up the underground would be useful, you know. Make your peer review, you know. More transparent.
00:58:51.998 --> 00:58:54.651 Rick Strassman: You know. Call people out for abuses.
00:58:55.210 --> 00:59:04.719 Rick Strassman: you know those kinds of things, you know the you know. The next, you know, logical step within the medicalization is the development of these non psychedelic psychedelics
00:59:04.970 --> 00:59:13.349 Rick Strassman: which stimulate neuroplasticity and neurogenesis like psychedelics, do. But without the trip
00:59:13.939 --> 00:59:18.249 Rick Strassman: and I think those compounds will be like, you know, super antidepressants
00:59:18.610 --> 00:59:22.409 Rick Strassman: without a subjective experience, you know. Necessarily.
00:59:22.890 --> 00:59:40.020 Rick Strassman: But you know, still, if it's a tough case. That's not responding to those kinds of medications. I think there still will be a use for a full psychedelic experience where the subjective effect is important.
00:59:40.630 --> 00:59:53.069 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Well, Dr. Rick, I could talk to you for hours. I'm fascinated with this topic, and with your research and all that you've been through. Thank you for taking the time to come on my show today.
00:59:53.070 --> 00:59:54.639 Rick Strassman: Well, thank you, Sam, it's a pleasure
00:59:54.870 --> 01:00:01.730 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All right, and and let me know when your next book comes out, because I'd love to have you back on, because if I know you. You'll probably have more
01:00:02.265 --> 01:00:11.709 Rick Strassman: Yeah, I'm working on my own translation and commentary on Genesis, which is now 1,200 pages, which obviously you need to condense, you know to like a
01:00:11.870 --> 01:00:17.329 Rick Strassman: you know, reasonable length, but hopefully it'll be out in a year or 2.
01:00:17.330 --> 01:00:46.640 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Okay, wonderful. We'll have you back when you have your new book. So thank you. Thank you so much. And of course, thank you, my loyal listeners. Without you there is no show. Remember, if you missed any part of today's show, you can always catch the replay on talkradio, dot Nyc. And on all the major podcasting platforms, apple Spotify Pandora Iheartradio. And if you would, if you're listening and you, like our show, please give us a 5 star rating on those podcasting platforms. Thank you all for tuning in.
01:00:46.640 --> 01:01:02.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Take care. Oh, and, by the way, don't forget today. 5 pm. It's the return of Frank Harrison and his show. Frank, about health featuring today. Me, your conscious consultant. So tune in at 5 Pm. Eastern time today. Take care, everyone. We will talk to you all next week
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