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EPISODE SUMMARY:
What if I told you there is one simple solution to have fewer and shorter meetings at work, increase the effectiveness of teams and organizations, and reduce conflict? It's deeper listening and we'll be exploring how to do that on this episode.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
In this episode you will learn the four biggest listening barriers in the workplace, the 5 levels of deep listening, and the three most practical tips to improving listening in the workplace.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Oscar Trimboli is an award-winning author, host of the Apple award-winning podcast Deep Listening and a sought-after keynote speaker. His third book is How to Listen: Discover the Hidden Key to Better Communication – the most comprehensive book about listening in the workplace. Along with the Deep Listening Ambassador Community, he is on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners in the workplace. Through his work with chairs, boards of directors, and executive teams, Oscar has experienced first-hand the transformational impact leaders can have when they listen beyond words.
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
www.gotowerscope.com
https://www.oscartrimboli.com/howtolisten/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/oscartrimboli/
#DeepListening #TheHardSkills #LeadershipDevelopment #TeamDevelopment
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In this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu interviews award-winning author and listening expert Oscar Trimboli to explore why poor listening may be the root of much workplace conflict and disengagement. Leaders often unknowingly fall into listening “villain” traps—like interrupting, problem-solving prematurely, or making conversations about themselves—which damages trust, communication, and team morale. By recognizing these behaviors as misguided attempts to connect or act efficiently, high-achievers can reframe them as strengths-in-disguise and transform their listening into a powerful leadership asset.
In this segment of The Hard Skills, Oscar Trimboli breaks down the science behind why effective listening is so difficult, emphasizing the mismatch between how fast we speak (125 wpm), how fast we listen (400 wpm), and how fast we think (900 wpm). He urges leaders to slow down, tune into more than just words, and stay present by asking a powerful question: "What would make this a great conversation?"—a strategic tool that centers purpose and allows for meaningful, focused dialogue. By becoming more aware of not only what’s said but how it’s said, high-achievers can cultivate deeper understanding, build trust, and create more productive and emotionally intelligent conversations.
In this segment of The Hard Skills, Oscar Trimboli introduces the five levels of listening—from listening to yourself and content, to the deeper levels of context, unsaid meaning, and personal significance. He emphasizes that true listening begins with self-awareness—being mentally present, managing distractions, and setting clear boundaries, especially critical for leaders who feel the pressure to always be available. With practical tools like mindful breathing, hydration, and conscious scheduling, high-achievers can strengthen their leadership by becoming more intentional, present, and impactful listeners.
In the final segment of The Hard Skills, Oscar Trimboli shares powerful strategies for mastering Level 2 listening, which involves tuning into not just words, but also visual and emotional cues. He emphasizes adapting your listening style—whether visual or auditory—and making deliberate choices in virtual settings, including camera use, to foster connection and inclusivity. Leaders are encouraged to reflect on how they show up in conversations and to use tools like the Listening Quiz or his book How to Listen to elevate their presence, improve communication, and build stronger, more human-centered teams.
00:00:50.570 --> 00:01:09.270 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills show where we take a deep dive into the most challenging soft skills required to navigate leadership, uncertainty, complexities and change today and into the future. I'm your host, Dr. Mira Bronkw, psychologist leadership, consultant and founder of Towerscope.
00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:13.970 Mira Brancu: Today's episode is really relevant to what seems to contribute most
00:01:14.460 --> 00:01:19.680 Mira Brancu: to human conflict we see in the world today. Poor listening skills.
00:01:20.240 --> 00:01:25.109 Mira Brancu: Oscar Tromboli is here with us today to help us become better listeners.
00:01:25.420 --> 00:01:49.130 Mira Brancu: And it's also a really great topic for Season seven's focus on navigating, unhealthy work environments. And that's also in honor of my new workbook millennials, workbook for navigating workplace politics to get a light taste of the book's content. I do have some free downloadables, including 4 models of giving feedback and feedback readiness checklists and some tip sheets beyond that book content.
00:01:49.310 --> 00:01:52.619 Mira Brancu: including one for communicating during times of uncertainty
00:01:52.740 --> 00:02:05.750 Mira Brancu: which you might find especially useful right now all of these are available on my website@gotowerscope.com under resources and under other free stuff within resources. Now, today.
00:02:05.880 --> 00:02:12.560 Mira Brancu: we're going to get a deep dive into developing exceptional listening skills.
00:02:12.790 --> 00:02:18.969 Mira Brancu: So whether you're a leader managing a team or simply trying to support your colleagues, this conversation is for you.
00:02:19.230 --> 00:02:32.610 Mira Brancu: Let me introduce to you. Our guest, Oscar Tremboli. Oscar, is an award winning author, host of the apple, award winning, podcast deep listening, and a keynote speaker. His 3rd book is how to listen.
00:02:32.910 --> 00:02:35.650 Mira Brancu: And I happen to have it here today with me
00:02:35.830 --> 00:02:38.760 Mira Brancu: it's a really really deep dive.
00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:58.590 Mira Brancu: How to listen, discover the hidden key to better communication is the full title, an incredibly comprehensive book about listening in the workplace along with a deep listening ambassador community. He is on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners in the workplace. Welcome and great to have you on the show, Oscar
00:02:59.460 --> 00:03:03.399 Oscar Trimboli: G'day, Mira, and really looking forward to listening to your questions today.
00:03:04.030 --> 00:03:14.059 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. Yes. Listening to my question, did you hear what he said? Okay, so Oscar, you know. 1st obvious question, how did you get interested in this topic
00:03:14.880 --> 00:03:16.819 Oscar Trimboli: I think the topic found me.
00:03:17.150 --> 00:03:38.719 Oscar Trimboli: I was sitting in a boardroom in 2,008 and 3 countries, in a video conference, setting a budget. I was a marketing director of Microsoft, and 20 min into the meeting. My vice president, my boss, my supervisor, looks me straight in the eye across the table and says, Oscar, we need to talk immediately after this meeting.
00:03:38.830 --> 00:03:41.299 Oscar Trimboli: and I think to myself, Hmm!
00:03:41.900 --> 00:03:48.480 Oscar Trimboli: This is like the honey we need to talk conversation. I better figure out how many weeks of salary I got left.
00:03:48.630 --> 00:04:04.900 Oscar Trimboli: and who I need to call, because I reckon I'm going to get fired ironically. I didn't listen to the rest of the meeting. The meeting finished up, everybody packed up and started to leave, and I tried to get out, and Tracy said to me, Hey, Oscar, close the door. What I have to say is really important.
00:04:05.100 --> 00:04:10.750 Oscar Trimboli: and as I walk back towards the boardroom table she says, you have no idea what you did at the 20 min, Mark.
00:04:10.870 --> 00:04:14.460 Oscar Trimboli: and I thought, great. I'm getting fired. I don't even know why
00:04:14.910 --> 00:04:27.700 Oscar Trimboli: I sat down. She looked me straight in the eye and said, Oscar, if you could code how you listen! You could change the world. What I heard was Woohoo! I haven't been fired.
00:04:28.330 --> 00:04:47.300 Oscar Trimboli: So the difference between hearing and listening is action, and I hope I've honored Tracy's request in since 2,008 to code. Not how I listen. But how the world's best listeners listen whether that's in jigsaw puzzle games or 3 books or
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:49.729 Oscar Trimboli: an online assessment
00:04:50.190 --> 00:05:00.519 Oscar Trimboli: workshops. And yeah, we've we've got great research from 35,000 people about what kind of gets in their way when it comes to listening. So
00:05:00.640 --> 00:05:02.670 Oscar Trimboli: I want to acknowledge Tracy
00:05:03.310 --> 00:05:17.189 Mira Brancu: Thanks. Jc, for the feedback. Well, let's start with that. You you mentioned that you have gathered all of this information on barriers. Right. What are the biggest listening barriers
00:05:18.860 --> 00:05:27.060 Oscar Trimboli: When it comes to listening in the workplace. Our research tells us there's 4 primary ways that people
00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:32.819 Oscar Trimboli: create self-limiting filters when it comes to listening because our listening.
00:05:33.050 --> 00:05:42.769 Oscar Trimboli: although we're never taught it formally, we're taught it informally, through role modelling, through our parents, through our teachers, through our peers, through our aunties, our uncles, our grandparents.
00:05:42.970 --> 00:05:47.449 Oscar Trimboli: and we adopt one of these barriers.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:53.119 Oscar Trimboli: One of these 4 barriers comes up for everybody. So I want you to think
00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:59.390 Oscar Trimboli: of the worst listener, you know, and see which one of these 4 categories the worst listener, you know, fits into.
00:05:59.570 --> 00:06:06.560 Oscar Trimboli: So the obvious one is the interrupting listener. They're the quiz show contestant that presses the buzzer
00:06:06.960 --> 00:06:16.989 Oscar Trimboli: gets in early, but answers the wrong question, and the speaker says they're not interested in me. They're not interested in their problem. They're just interested in themselves.
00:06:17.270 --> 00:06:24.510 Oscar Trimboli: The next one is the problem solver, the shrewd listener. They're
00:06:24.660 --> 00:06:30.439 Oscar Trimboli: jumping ahead. They're solving the problem. What the speaker says is.
00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:33.830 Oscar Trimboli: they're not listening to me. They're trying to fix me.
00:06:34.030 --> 00:06:37.710 Oscar Trimboli: So that's shrewd, secondary second
00:06:37.710 --> 00:06:38.170 Mira Brancu: And the list
00:06:38.170 --> 00:06:41.180 Oscar Trimboli: That gets in the way. Number 3 is lost.
00:06:41.970 --> 00:06:47.820 Oscar Trimboli: People who come across as vague, disinterested, not participating, not sure why they're there.
00:06:47.970 --> 00:06:53.030 Oscar Trimboli: and they're just not clear on their purpose in the conversation, and
00:06:53.030 --> 00:06:53.410 Mira Brancu: From
00:06:53.410 --> 00:06:57.470 Oscar Trimboli: Speaker's perspective. They come across, as why they even
00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:20.089 Oscar Trimboli: present in the conversation, and then the final one we call it the dramatic, listening villain they love moving the spotlight off the story that the speaker is telling onto them. They might say Speaker might say, I'm really struggling with my manager, and they'll jump in and go. Oh, let me tell you about a time I really struggled with the manager.
00:07:20.300 --> 00:07:29.660 Oscar Trimboli: and all of a sudden the conversation moves to them. So those 4 villains are interrupting, shrewd, lost, and dramatic.
00:07:29.870 --> 00:07:37.919 Oscar Trimboli: Now, Mira, did you have someone? Don't name them? Did you have someone who fitted in one of those boxes which box did they fit in
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:42.219 Mira Brancu: Yes, yes, the dramatic, listening villain!
00:07:42.760 --> 00:07:45.220 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And it always feels like
00:07:46.030 --> 00:07:48.950 Mira Brancu: very frustrating that I haven't been listened to
00:07:49.230 --> 00:07:58.059 Mira Brancu: right and that they always make it about them, they always find a way to make the story about them.
00:07:58.310 --> 00:08:05.529 Mira Brancu: And you know the other thing, though, that I was thinking about when you were describing these is how fascinating it is
00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.679 Mira Brancu: that when we, when we think about
00:08:10.295 --> 00:08:13.830 Mira Brancu: who we label as having leadership, material.
00:08:14.150 --> 00:08:21.900 Mira Brancu: right being leadership, material having leadership qualities, they do interrupt.
00:08:22.300 --> 00:08:24.580 Mira Brancu: they do take up the limelight.
00:08:24.930 --> 00:08:29.349 Mira Brancu: They do seem to jump in, trying to problem, solve and fix things.
00:08:29.730 --> 00:08:36.790 Mira Brancu: and sometimes they speak in generalities and heads in the cloud. And you know, visionary, but never like specific.
00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:43.569 Mira Brancu: And I find that really interesting that the very people we sometimes label as having
00:08:43.780 --> 00:08:46.880 Mira Brancu: leadership. Qualities, in fact, are terrible listeners.
00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:50.619 Mira Brancu: I'm wondering, like what what you think about that, what your reaction is
00:08:50.780 --> 00:09:09.849 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah, just a quick commercial break from labels. I think labels are really good on food and pharmaceutical products and human behavior, but not on people. So let's be careful how we use the phrase labels in our workplace. We're not labelling a person. We're labeling their behaviours, and I love the way you made that distinction. So thank you.
00:09:09.970 --> 00:09:11.730 Oscar Trimboli: I think for
00:09:11.820 --> 00:09:34.350 Oscar Trimboli: many people who are leaders. They'll make excuses about why, you know, I'm time poor. I'm in back to back meetings. Therefore I need to interrupt. Okay, that's okay. But there's a consequence for that. You reduce. Trust. You reduce the number of people who are going to speak up. Are you conscious of that? And I think for all of us, we.
00:09:34.350 --> 00:09:50.049 Oscar Trimboli: if we were truly self aware, we probably saw a bit of all of those villains in ourselves, and how we listen at work, and how we listen at home may be a little different. So for me, at work. I'm a shrewd listener. I'm trying to problem solve
00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:57.489 Oscar Trimboli: yet at home I'm lost, particularly when my brothers are talking about religion all the time they're talking about
00:09:57.620 --> 00:10:06.980 Oscar Trimboli: the religion of Canon versus Nikon cameras. Right? They write into their cameras. And I, my camera is my phone, and I occasionally use it. So
00:10:07.620 --> 00:10:19.539 Oscar Trimboli: we want to be getting our listening right before we're judging other people's listening is is the point I would make about leaders consequences for leaders who don't listen, Staff, leave early
00:10:19.670 --> 00:10:23.709 Oscar Trimboli: like I don't need to hang around. I can get a better offer somewhere else.
00:10:24.130 --> 00:10:36.629 Oscar Trimboli: Customers go and join the competition or projects. Take longer to complete your business isn't as profitable as it could be so for leaders out there, the more senior you are, the more consequential your listening is
00:10:37.860 --> 00:10:45.899 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that you mentioned. You know. Recognizing where
00:10:46.170 --> 00:10:54.269 Mira Brancu: our own liabilities are. We all have these liabilities right? And in certain circumstances where
00:10:54.460 --> 00:11:09.100 Mira Brancu: our liabilities are different. So I appreciated how you describe. Like at work. My liability is problem solving, which is definitely mine as well, mine continues into the home the same way. You know, but for other people it changes right
00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:10.120 Mira Brancu: and
00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:10.520 Oscar Trimboli: Yep.
00:11:10.520 --> 00:11:16.809 Mira Brancu: I think. That if we're going to change
00:11:17.020 --> 00:11:28.449 Mira Brancu: the work environment to produce better listeners, we have to start with ourselves 1st always and recognize kind of where, where we're trying to work on ourselves. And the you know, the the ways that we
00:11:28.630 --> 00:11:29.660 Mira Brancu: don't listen
00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:39.780 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah. And I think in those barriers that we described in our fundamental research is also the keys to the strengths. So think about interrupting.
00:11:39.890 --> 00:11:43.740 Oscar Trimboli: What they're about is about productivity and time.
00:11:44.330 --> 00:11:44.990 Oscar Trimboli: So
00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:53.399 Oscar Trimboli: If they're conscious that their interruption is actually costing them time, and they'll get that time back with more contribution.
00:11:53.520 --> 00:12:16.509 Oscar Trimboli: The interrupting listener just adjust ever so slightly. All they have to do is count 1 1,000 to 1,003, 1,000, and they'll be surprised what they hear now. I worked with a leader at West Point, not too far from where you are. And they said the 1 1,002, 1,003, 1,000 thing didn't work. So they literally bit their tongue.
00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:26.179 Oscar Trimboli: and that stopped them. And they said, Wow, so many more people are contributing now. So if you're conscious of time.
00:12:26.650 --> 00:12:29.279 Oscar Trimboli: And you are that interrupted. Just
00:12:29.300 --> 00:12:40.790 Oscar Trimboli: think about. There's a strength in time and productivity for the problem solver. The the goal is solve the problem that needs to be solved, not the problem you're anticipating.
00:12:40.790 --> 00:12:59.829 Oscar Trimboli: So often people will be prescribing a solution to a problem that the person didn't actually describe, because you're stuck in your own head. So for the shrewd, listening villain, your amazing problem solver. Listen to how they're saying it, not just what they say. Notice if they're talking about a problem
00:12:59.890 --> 00:13:10.570 Oscar Trimboli: or the future and a solution as an example or notice if they're talking about it individually or collectively, because you'll solve differently as a result
00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:12.020 Oscar Trimboli: for lost.
00:13:12.900 --> 00:13:15.280 Oscar Trimboli: You just want to be clear on purpose.
00:13:15.780 --> 00:13:21.329 Oscar Trimboli: So if you're invited to a meeting and you're not sure why you've been invited.
00:13:22.170 --> 00:13:28.249 Oscar Trimboli: Just take a little bit of responsibility and just say, Hey, what purpose would you like me to play in this meeting?
00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:34.070 Oscar Trimboli: And if you're at the meeting, and you haven't done that. Simply ask.
00:13:35.470 --> 00:13:45.969 Oscar Trimboli: How would you like me to listen through this meeting? Would you like me to listen as a customer another department. If you're not clear. So then the host can describe the relationship there
00:13:46.280 --> 00:13:52.249 Oscar Trimboli: and then for our dramatic listeners who are trying to create connection.
00:13:53.290 --> 00:13:58.320 Oscar Trimboli: So they're saying, if I tell a story like their story we'll be connected.
00:13:59.310 --> 00:14:03.470 Oscar Trimboli: You'll create much more connection if you let them finish their story
00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:08.750 Oscar Trimboli: and then decide whether your story is relevant to the purpose of the conversation.
00:14:08.900 --> 00:14:11.660 Oscar Trimboli: So for every liability there's an asset.
00:14:11.780 --> 00:14:21.840 Oscar Trimboli: and I don't want us all to feel helpless and hopeless about listening. There's a whole bunch of tips in there that which one of those might be useful for you, Mira
00:14:22.740 --> 00:14:28.822 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I mean, I I love 1st of all, I just in general love the idea of
00:14:29.430 --> 00:14:33.329 Mira Brancu: recognizing what the need is behind the behavior.
00:14:33.540 --> 00:14:40.830 Mira Brancu: Right? If you can rest, recognize? What is it that I need, or what is it that someone else
00:14:40.990 --> 00:14:43.300 Mira Brancu: needs here?
00:14:43.530 --> 00:14:49.829 Mira Brancu: And what can we offer to help them still get that need to be met
00:14:50.060 --> 00:14:56.580 Mira Brancu: in a different way. That doesn't sort of invalidate or take away from the other person.
00:14:57.040 --> 00:15:02.360 Mira Brancu: And I really, you know I like that. I you know I equate it to the way that we think about
00:15:02.650 --> 00:15:26.790 Mira Brancu: leadership assessment, but kind of flip when we think about leadership assessments, we often think, what are my strengths? And you know, what are the Associated shadow side, or liabilities over utilizing that strength. And in this case you're sharing more. What is the challenge? And what is the need behind the challenge? Can we flip it to a strength that you can use to meet that need right?
00:15:26.920 --> 00:15:34.690 Mira Brancu: So I really love that we're reaching an ad break. So I'm gonna take a pause. And after the ad break. I'd love to get into
00:15:34.820 --> 00:16:00.979 Mira Brancu: your 5 levels of listening, because I think they're really fantastic. You're listening to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Oscar Tomboli. We air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. Eastern. If you're watching right now, you can find us live streaming on Linkedin and Youtube and several other locations@talkradio.nyc. And even leave us a comment or a question, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:52.170 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Miro Branku and our guest today, Oscar Tremboli, of how to listen.
00:17:52.590 --> 00:17:57.640 Mira Brancu: See that? Oh, I'm having some trouble there. Okay, so.
00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:06.289 Mira Brancu: Oscar, before we get to the 5 levels of listening, there is a statistic that you shared in your book that I found fascinating
00:18:07.260 --> 00:18:11.760 Mira Brancu: the difference between thinking, speaking, and listening speed, and how that affects
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.439 Mira Brancu: are listening. I would love for you to share more with our audience about this
00:18:16.700 --> 00:18:44.029 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah, these 3 numbers. If you know them, you'll change your listening. As a result. If you're conscious of these 3 numbers, you'll change the way you speak as well. And with these 3 numbers in mind, probably to be honest, the only thing you need to listen to today, because when we share these numbers with other people, they go. Wow, okay. Now I understand why. So let's talk about the 3 numbers.
00:18:45.110 --> 00:18:51.670 Oscar Trimboli: The numbers are 125-40-0900.
00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:55.570 Oscar Trimboli: Now, listening is a simultaneous equation.
00:18:55.820 --> 00:18:58.200 Oscar Trimboli: That means that your role
00:18:58.540 --> 00:19:05.529 Oscar Trimboli: as a speaker changes to your role as a listener even while you're speaking, and if you're listening.
00:19:05.860 --> 00:19:14.220 Oscar Trimboli: your role will change, and you'll become a speaker at some point as well. So you need to know these numbers from both sides.
00:19:14.380 --> 00:19:16.829 Oscar Trimboli: So let's start with the speaker side.
00:19:17.950 --> 00:19:25.009 Oscar Trimboli: We speak in a range, but let's give it an average a hundred 25 to 150 words per minute.
00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:41.360 Oscar Trimboli: Now, if I'm auctioning a property, or calling a horse race, or selling cows at a cattle yard, I can speak at 200 words per minute, and you can still understand everything I say. But on average we're going to speak 125 to 150 words per minute.
00:19:42.280 --> 00:19:44.440 Oscar Trimboli: Yet on average, I can think
00:19:45.410 --> 00:19:47.189 Oscar Trimboli: at 900 words per minute.
00:19:48.620 --> 00:19:54.840 Oscar Trimboli: That means the 1st thing I say is 14% of what I think.
00:19:56.110 --> 00:19:57.740 Oscar Trimboli: let me say it a different way.
00:19:57.910 --> 00:20:06.109 Oscar Trimboli: If you just listen to the 1st thing that somebody says you're missing out on 86% of what they think
00:20:06.300 --> 00:20:07.560 Oscar Trimboli: and what they mean.
00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:09.910 Oscar Trimboli: So if you want shorter meetings
00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:14.830 Oscar Trimboli: or less meetings, just take a little bit more time
00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:24.669 Oscar Trimboli: to notice and listen to what they haven't said rather than exclusively to what they have said. So those 1st 2 numbers
00:20:24.830 --> 00:20:29.100 Oscar Trimboli: I speak at 125 words per minute. Yet I can think
00:20:29.370 --> 00:20:36.309 Oscar Trimboli: at 900 means. I can't get everything out of my mind the 1st time.
00:20:36.580 --> 00:20:37.930 Oscar Trimboli: So, Mira, when you
00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:45.270 Oscar Trimboli: process those numbers, we'll get to 400 shortly, when you process those numbers originally. What happened for you
00:20:46.630 --> 00:20:49.789 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I mean, I I had to slow down.
00:20:50.620 --> 00:20:57.390 Mira Brancu: And really, I mean, think about it and the implications.
00:20:57.500 --> 00:21:05.430 Mira Brancu: you know. And it is a lot of what you learn as a psychologist, especially as a clinical psychologist, and.
00:21:05.800 --> 00:21:10.949 Mira Brancu: you know, is to ask a lot more questions
00:21:11.270 --> 00:21:14.329 Mira Brancu: to get at what's behind what was stated
00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:17.649 Mira Brancu: right? So that's kind of what comes up for me.
00:21:18.570 --> 00:21:19.110 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah.
00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:31.089 Oscar Trimboli: and a little caveat listening in the workplace is not psychology or psychiatry, and if you're not licensed to practice, please don't try and pretend you're one of those
00:21:31.490 --> 00:21:33.010 Oscar Trimboli: in the workplace as well
00:21:33.010 --> 00:21:34.320 Mira Brancu: Right, right.
00:21:36.370 --> 00:21:44.899 Oscar Trimboli: Sometimes your presence is more impactful in listening than your questions.
00:21:46.300 --> 00:21:50.749 Oscar Trimboli: So the 1st thing we need to become conscious of
00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:53.810 Oscar Trimboli: is, are we ready to listen
00:21:54.190 --> 00:22:04.640 Oscar Trimboli: because most of us turn up to a conversation with all our browser tabs open in our brain, taking up memory and processing stuff.
00:22:04.760 --> 00:22:15.239 Oscar Trimboli: And we're thinking about the last meeting, the next meeting, and how we're going to jump in, and what point we want to make? And did I put the trash out, and all these things are going on in our mind.
00:22:15.830 --> 00:22:24.540 Oscar Trimboli: But we haven't taken the time to listen to ourselves. Now. We'll get to that shortly when we talk about the different levels of listening.
00:22:24.740 --> 00:22:26.499 Oscar Trimboli: But I do want to pause and
00:22:27.260 --> 00:22:29.510 Oscar Trimboli: spend some time with 400,
00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:35.089 Oscar Trimboli: so we can listen at maximum speed of 400 words per minute.
00:22:35.890 --> 00:22:38.080 Oscar Trimboli: Now for some of you listening.
00:22:39.650 --> 00:22:48.939 Oscar Trimboli: you may be listening on a device that allows you to increase the speed of this conversation to 2 times speed, and you can completely comprehend
00:22:49.110 --> 00:22:51.210 Oscar Trimboli: everything that's going on.
00:22:52.330 --> 00:23:01.829 Oscar Trimboli: Here's the challenge when you speak to a human live, and they're speaking in a range of 125 to 150 words per minute, and you can listen to 400.
00:23:02.350 --> 00:23:05.559 Oscar Trimboli: Your mind goes. Oh, wow! I wish they'd hurry up.
00:23:05.780 --> 00:23:06.730 Oscar Trimboli: Okay.
00:23:06.950 --> 00:23:22.660 Oscar Trimboli: Well, while they're doing that, I'm just going to jump ahead to a meeting in 2 weeks time and think about that. Oh, they mentioned the word yellow. A yellow yellow relates to what I'm trying to do for a holiday plan I've got, and all of a sudden
00:23:22.830 --> 00:23:29.120 Oscar Trimboli: you're drifting away. You're anticipating. You're judging you're not actually listening.
00:23:29.540 --> 00:23:32.739 Oscar Trimboli: so you can listen much faster than they can speak.
00:23:33.430 --> 00:23:37.060 Oscar Trimboli: So start to notice not just what they are saying.
00:23:37.450 --> 00:23:46.170 Oscar Trimboli: notice how they are saying it as well, and we talk about C sense and sound.
00:23:46.450 --> 00:23:54.170 Oscar Trimboli: What do you hear? What do you see? What do you sense? Are you using your whole body to listen? Or are you just using your ears?
00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:03.809 Oscar Trimboli: So for many of us, just knowing those 3 numbers will completely alter the way. Not only we listen, but also the way we speak.
00:24:04.120 --> 00:24:07.850 Oscar Trimboli: The hardest position in any conversation.
00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:11.920 Oscar Trimboli: for listening is actually the speaker, not the listener.
00:24:12.630 --> 00:24:18.310 Oscar Trimboli: because the speaker's trying to see if the information is making sense. Is it landing?
00:24:18.430 --> 00:24:22.149 Oscar Trimboli: So it's a tough job both to speak and to listen
00:24:22.930 --> 00:24:30.870 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. I'm thinking about a client that I had recently, who had
00:24:31.020 --> 00:24:42.089 Mira Brancu: been working to get another job and not because he didn't love his current job. He actually did. He was very passionate about it, but he was pretty unhappy with the leadership.
00:24:42.260 --> 00:24:46.479 Mira Brancu: and it was making him so miserable. He just couldn't continue. So he
00:24:46.760 --> 00:24:49.090 Mira Brancu: had interviewed at lots of different places.
00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:50.190 Mira Brancu: He
00:24:50.390 --> 00:25:05.520 Mira Brancu: finally landed a position they were thrilled. They were just like, When can you start, and we're so excited, and you know, and so he's he's relaying this supposedly exciting situation where everybody's thrilled to have him, and he's going to leave.
00:25:05.890 --> 00:25:10.270 Mira Brancu: and I just kept listening, and his face just kept
00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:17.930 Mira Brancu: drooping lower and lower as he's describing, and it was such a flat affect right? So now
00:25:18.220 --> 00:25:23.310 Mira Brancu: the content of his information didn't match his face at all.
00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:28.240 Mira Brancu: And so, you know, I sort of paused, and I said, I,
00:25:28.560 --> 00:25:30.950 Mira Brancu: I'm wondering how you're feeling about this.
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:37.309 Mira Brancu: because I'm not seeing excitement on your face in the way that you're talking about the
00:25:37.890 --> 00:25:41.070 Mira Brancu: you know the situation, what what's happening?
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.370 Mira Brancu: And it led into a completely different conversation.
00:25:44.490 --> 00:25:53.969 Mira Brancu: We talk about grief, we talk about forgiveness, we talk about meaning making, I mean, like deep, deep stuff, and that would have never happened had I not
00:25:54.540 --> 00:25:59.109 Mira Brancu: been paying attention to more than the content of his words.
00:26:00.380 --> 00:26:09.199 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah. And if you were on your cell phone, or your tablet, or your laptop, or noticing your connected watch at the same time, you would have missed all of that
00:26:10.010 --> 00:26:14.460 Mira Brancu: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Okay, so now.
00:26:15.280 --> 00:26:20.039 Mira Brancu: this is fascinating. I just, I'm still taking it in.
00:26:20.860 --> 00:26:27.989 Mira Brancu: If we say 14% of what we're actually thinking right?
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:34.310 Mira Brancu: And if other people miss 86% of what we're thinking
00:26:34.470 --> 00:26:35.150 Oscar Trimboli: No.
00:26:35.150 --> 00:26:36.289 Mira Brancu: How do we?
00:26:36.780 --> 00:26:42.400 Mira Brancu: How do we use the listening piece to bridge some of that gap?
00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:47.160 Mira Brancu: What are some ways to notice, to stop, to recognize.
00:26:47.520 --> 00:26:49.379 Mira Brancu: to start, to bridge the gap
00:26:52.270 --> 00:26:54.309 Oscar Trimboli: Want to give you a compass
00:26:54.430 --> 00:26:59.550 Oscar Trimboli: to help the setting of the conversation, and with this compass
00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:13.160 Oscar Trimboli: you'll have permission to interrupt skillfully and professionally. With this compass you'll be able to shorten the conversation with this compass. You'll help them. You and everybody else in the conversation feel heard.
00:27:13.870 --> 00:27:18.670 Oscar Trimboli: and the compass is simply this question that you should ask
00:27:19.690 --> 00:27:33.559 Oscar Trimboli: at the commencement of the conversation, or sometime just after the chit chat and the you know, how's the weather part of the conversation ideally. If you could ask this question before you meet even better.
00:27:35.800 --> 00:27:38.069 Oscar Trimboli: what would make this a great conversation?
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.259 Oscar Trimboli: What will make this a good conversation.
00:27:41.690 --> 00:27:46.840 Oscar Trimboli: What would make this a productive conversation? You can pick whatever adjective you want to put
00:27:46.970 --> 00:27:48.619 Oscar Trimboli: in front of conversation.
00:27:49.910 --> 00:27:56.600 Oscar Trimboli: Now, notice, it's not what would make this a good conversation for you.
00:27:57.520 --> 00:28:06.529 Oscar Trimboli: We're actually not interested in what would make it a great conversation for you, because if there were 3, sorry if there are 2 people in a meeting.
00:28:06.770 --> 00:28:08.250 Oscar Trimboli: there are 3
00:28:08.560 --> 00:28:20.750 Oscar Trimboli: entities present you them, and the purpose of the meeting. This question is designed to understand the purpose of the conversation, not the agenda, that's what
00:28:21.290 --> 00:28:26.549 Oscar Trimboli: what would make this a good conversation allows them to say.
00:28:26.800 --> 00:28:31.490 Oscar Trimboli: Mira. It would be a great conversation if by the end of this
00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:38.950 Oscar Trimboli: we have made a decision. Well, it would be a great conversation if we brainstormed a whole
00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:46.949 Oscar Trimboli: bunch of ideas, or it would be a great conversation if we figured out how to bring this project
00:28:47.820 --> 00:28:49.370 Oscar Trimboli: to a conclusion quicker.
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:57.090 Oscar Trimboli: Now, if they say that, they'll tell you what will make it a good conversation for them.
00:28:57.980 --> 00:29:03.009 Oscar Trimboli: Please make sure you tell them what will make it a good conversation from your perspective. Also.
00:29:03.330 --> 00:29:15.430 Oscar Trimboli: your job as a listener is not to be a sponge. Your job is to create some energy and possibly think of a trampoline rather than a sponge, because a sponge
00:29:15.550 --> 00:29:23.339 Oscar Trimboli: can be draining can be difficult can be heavy, and a lot of people think that good listening in the workplace
00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:27.819 Oscar Trimboli: feels like somebody on a therapy couch couldn't be further from the truth.
00:29:29.110 --> 00:29:32.969 Oscar Trimboli: Now, with this question, what would make it a good conversation?
00:29:33.120 --> 00:29:35.510 Oscar Trimboli: Let's pretend we're meeting for an hour.
00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:38.599 Oscar Trimboli: the 10 to 15 min, Mark.
00:29:38.770 --> 00:29:40.480 Oscar Trimboli: You can simply sigh.
00:29:40.730 --> 00:29:47.139 Oscar Trimboli: Mira, you said this would make it a good conversation. How are we going? How are we tracking?
00:29:49.010 --> 00:29:55.740 Oscar Trimboli: Which gives you an opportunity? If they're telling this long, rambling story, and you can't kind of make sense of it
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:05.819 Oscar Trimboli: to interrupt, and you'll get 3 possible responses back from Mira. Yep, we're right on track.
00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:13.590 Oscar Trimboli: Now that we've spoken a bit, we probably need to be thinking about this as well or.
00:30:14.620 --> 00:30:23.129 Oscar Trimboli: yeah. Now that I've thought about it, we probably don't need to cover off anything else. We can probably just spend the next 15 min, and then we can wrap up.
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:30.870 Oscar Trimboli: Now you can use that compass setting all the way through. So in an hour, meeting every 10 to 15 min, you can check in.
00:30:32.120 --> 00:30:48.629 Oscar Trimboli: and that gives you permission to interrupt, but also to give you the opportunity to stay on track with your listening, because you can listen. Not just from what's going on in your mind about yellow means holiday means planning.
00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:56.500 Oscar Trimboli: No, we also can listen for the purpose of the meeting as well, and that will keep you centered and present
00:30:56.630 --> 00:31:02.350 Oscar Trimboli: as we're going through now. The same thing works in team meetings as well, but we'll just stick to a 1 on one right now.
00:31:02.800 --> 00:31:05.590 Oscar Trimboli: How useful is that question for you, Mira
00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:26.479 Mira Brancu: It's great. I was thinking that it aligns very well with some coaching skills, you know, in coaching you tried to establish in the 1st 15 min or so. What is the goal? What? What is going to be the focus of our time together? What would make it feel most productive. How will we know it was a good, productive conversation, right? You know that you met your
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:47.129 Mira Brancu: your goal and if it feels like it's going off track. You check like we. We said this. It seems like it's going in this direction. Do you want to keep with like this direction or this direction. And so it continues to sort of do that. That check in. And I like just applying it to any conversation. Not just the coaching conversation.
00:31:47.770 --> 00:32:16.429 Mira Brancu: Yeah, we are reaching another ad break. We didn't get to the 5 levels of listening, but I was listening so intently to all the other things. Oscar was sharing with us that I wanted to pursue a couple of things. We'll be right back in just a moment when we come back from the ad break we will get to the 5 levels of listening. You're listening to me, Dr. Mira Branku, on the hard skills with Oscar Tremboli, author of how to listen, and we'll be right back
00:33:49.430 --> 00:33:56.500 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Oscar Tremboly, of how to listen.
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.270 Mira Brancu: and so in your book.
00:33:59.490 --> 00:34:02.850 Mira Brancu: You describe 5 levels of listening.
00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:19.790 Mira Brancu: and it serves as a large portion of the book, helping us walk deeper and deeper and deeper into these levels. I would love for you to share what those levels are, and especially those last 3 that I don't think a lot of people get to.
00:34:20.650 --> 00:34:26.830 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and we'll we'll describe the evidence of why people don't get there. And again I was working with a
00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:34.559 Oscar Trimboli: Board of directors, and the chair said to me, after the meeting, he said, Oscar, you know this workshop's amazing, but you know what
00:34:35.110 --> 00:34:40.770 Oscar Trimboli: you can't be everywhere. And how? How am I going to get these people to
00:34:40.880 --> 00:35:04.589 Oscar Trimboli: kind of embed what they learn along the way? So everything I've kind of developed has come as a result of listening to clients. And the 5 levels of listening came about through starting off listening to 150 people in a research group, and then to 2,000 people in a research study. And now to 35,000 people who've completed the listening assessment.
00:35:05.180 --> 00:35:09.940 Oscar Trimboli: One of the things when we go through the 5 levels of listening to know is
00:35:10.310 --> 00:35:38.919 Oscar Trimboli: each level requires some level of mastery before you can progress to the next level. Think of somebody who goes into a Karate studio or a judo dojo and tries to do a flying back kick straight away. They're going to injure themselves. So when we talk about those higher levels of listening, make sure you've mastered each of the levels. So the levels are level, one listening to yourself
00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:43.290 Oscar Trimboli: level 2 listening to the content.
00:35:44.620 --> 00:35:54.040 Oscar Trimboli: Now, we stop here at level one and 2, because 92% of people based on our research are actually at these 2 levels listening to things
00:35:54.190 --> 00:36:01.819 Oscar Trimboli: as we move up to level 3, 4 and 5, we're listening for things. We're listening for. Context, that's level 3
00:36:02.100 --> 00:36:05.219 Oscar Trimboli: at level 4, we're listening for what's unsaid.
00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:10.770 Oscar Trimboli: And then at level 5, we're listening for what it means for them.
00:36:11.940 --> 00:36:16.239 Oscar Trimboli: So the easy way to remember it yourself content, context
00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:21.309 Oscar Trimboli: unsaid and meaning. They're the 5 levels of listening.
00:36:21.640 --> 00:36:26.429 Oscar Trimboli: And I'll pause. How would you like to deconstruct them?
00:36:26.430 --> 00:36:41.330 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love how you you separated them out as listening to and listening for. And how interesting it is to me that it! It's hard for people to get past just the listening to
00:36:41.520 --> 00:36:46.950 Mira Brancu: in order to get to the listening for those last 3. Tell me more about
00:36:47.646 --> 00:36:57.820 Mira Brancu: what does it take to master the listening to the 1st 2 in order for people to successfully move into those higher level, listening for
00:36:59.270 --> 00:37:11.769 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah. So the good news and the bad news is the 1st person everybody ignores when they start listening. It's not your job to listen to the speaker. It's actually your job to listen to yourself.
00:37:13.020 --> 00:37:17.490 Oscar Trimboli: Now, what does that mean, Oscar? Well, with all that
00:37:17.600 --> 00:37:25.949 Oscar Trimboli: going on in our mind as as we approach a conversation. Are we even available to listen
00:37:27.060 --> 00:37:34.179 Oscar Trimboli: when you listen to yourself, and somebody approaches you in a corridor at work, or whatsapps you, or
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:36.090 Oscar Trimboli: sends you a message.
00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:39.350 Oscar Trimboli: If you're listening to yourself.
00:37:40.620 --> 00:37:45.570 Oscar Trimboli: Mastery sounds like Mira. Thanks for that question.
00:37:45.970 --> 00:37:56.909 Oscar Trimboli: Look, now's not a really good time. I know it's important for you, and I can give you my full and undivided attention in an hour tomorrow.
00:37:57.410 --> 00:38:00.290 Oscar Trimboli: when you're ready. But if you're not listening to yourself.
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:09.430 Oscar Trimboli: you're not even capable of making that informed choice, not just for them and also for you.
00:38:09.790 --> 00:38:33.309 Oscar Trimboli: But if you just default and go okay, well, I'll just listen to what they've got to say yet. You're still processing something else that's got to do with your last meeting. The next conversation, whatever it is, you're doing a disservice to them because your brain is somewhere else. Your mind is somewhere else. So at level one, it's just
00:38:34.030 --> 00:38:37.060 Oscar Trimboli: being conscious enough to listen to yourself.
00:38:38.030 --> 00:38:44.049 Oscar Trimboli: 3 practical tips at level one help you notice number one.
00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:52.719 Oscar Trimboli: Are you noticing your breath now? I'm not saying, are you breathing? I'm saying, are you noticing your breath.
00:38:53.720 --> 00:38:57.089 Oscar Trimboli: If you're conscious and present, you will notice your breath.
00:38:57.640 --> 00:39:03.630 Oscar Trimboli: Is that short? Is it shallow? Is it deep and full?
00:39:04.190 --> 00:39:11.880 Oscar Trimboli: Are you noticing your breath? So tip number one at level one is, notice your breathing tip number 2 is drink water.
00:39:13.290 --> 00:39:20.500 Oscar Trimboli: Coffee does not count, although it's a brown or black liquid. It doesn't count.
00:39:20.610 --> 00:39:27.280 Oscar Trimboli: Just drink water, and what you'll notice if you're listening to your body is, you'll feel the water in your system.
00:39:28.090 --> 00:39:37.359 Oscar Trimboli: but it sends a signal to this part of the body here around the lungs and the heart called the parasympathetic nervous system that says, everything's okay.
00:39:37.780 --> 00:39:44.869 Oscar Trimboli: You'll actually, if you drink water, and notice this as well as your breathing, your heart rate will move down.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:51.850 Oscar Trimboli: and with your heart rate slightly lower, you'll be able to become present to yourself.
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:54.840 Oscar Trimboli: And then, finally.
00:39:55.210 --> 00:40:01.050 Oscar Trimboli: the point I made earlier make an informed decision, even though a meeting is in the calendar.
00:40:01.470 --> 00:40:08.390 Oscar Trimboli: even though somebody's approached. You ask yourself. This question is now the right time for this meeting.
00:40:08.750 --> 00:40:10.820 Oscar Trimboli: If the answer to that is yes.
00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:19.670 Oscar Trimboli: ask the second question, is this the right place for this meeting for listening to be present.
00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:24.889 Oscar Trimboli: because sometimes you may have a meeting that's
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:29.249 Oscar Trimboli: Zoom, or a teams meeting, or a Google meets meeting.
00:40:29.410 --> 00:40:32.299 Oscar Trimboli: or a Whatsapp video doesn't matter.
00:40:32.590 --> 00:40:48.490 Oscar Trimboli: It may be a more productive meeting if you just make it a phone call where you're both walking and have physical activity. Given the purpose of the conversation. So that's level one. Any of those tips useful for you, Mira.
00:40:48.940 --> 00:40:56.870 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I want to add a little something to this, because because of the fact that I work with a lot of women in leadership that are
00:40:57.350 --> 00:41:03.569 Mira Brancu: slowly starting to unlearn negative messages that they received throughout their entire lives
00:41:03.700 --> 00:41:06.965 Mira Brancu: about being present for other people,
00:41:07.770 --> 00:41:20.030 Mira Brancu: unconditionally, unquestioningly, being present and serving others, this at this level, that alone might take some work and practice just to set boundaries.
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:27.989 Mira Brancu: just to realize you have boundaries you can set. You can choose to ask. Not now.
00:41:28.150 --> 00:41:38.039 Mira Brancu: And all of that is okay. And some of it is take taking the time to practice boundary setting, letting go of people, pleasing all the things that could get in the way
00:41:38.250 --> 00:41:45.540 Mira Brancu: of being okay with rescheduling something and not feeling like you have to be present for all people, at all times.
00:41:48.370 --> 00:41:53.870 Oscar Trimboli: And a ninja move at this level often, and this is one I use regularly at this level.
00:41:54.060 --> 00:41:55.360 Oscar Trimboli: Great question.
00:41:55.740 --> 00:41:57.210 Oscar Trimboli: I'd love to help.
00:41:57.470 --> 00:42:02.559 Oscar Trimboli: but I know there's someone much better qualified than me to assist with what you've described.
00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:05.589 Oscar Trimboli: is it? Okay? If I make an introduction
00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:14.270 Oscar Trimboli: right? Yeah. So it's not just the delay. It's like it's probably depending on what somebody's described in
00:42:14.430 --> 00:42:20.779 Oscar Trimboli: one, in 3 discussions. You're probably not even the person they should be having the conversation with.
00:42:21.030 --> 00:42:32.789 Oscar Trimboli: And a really good example is, if you're a leader in the workplace, and somebody wants to have a conversation because they want to give feedback about the last meeting they were in with someone in your team.
00:42:33.140 --> 00:42:36.000 Oscar Trimboli: The 1st question you should ask them is simply this.
00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:42.219 Oscar Trimboli: have you provided them with the feedback, and all of a sudden
00:42:42.700 --> 00:42:45.560 Oscar Trimboli: the dynamic of the conversation will be different.
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:49.530 Oscar Trimboli: One thing I do want to mention with these tips.
00:42:50.010 --> 00:42:58.390 Oscar Trimboli: Knowing the boundaries of the model I'm working with, and where this doesn't work.
00:42:59.130 --> 00:43:16.029 Oscar Trimboli: where this doesn't work is implied in the model is that there is some kind of equity in the power between the participants in a dialogue. If there is a significant power differential in the conversation.
00:43:16.140 --> 00:43:22.509 Oscar Trimboli: a really really senior person, a really, really toxic person you pick your poison.
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:29.430 Oscar Trimboli: Most of these tips are unlikely to be productive for you, so I just want to make sure
00:43:29.430 --> 00:43:30.720 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:43:30.720 --> 00:43:40.490 Oscar Trimboli: Understands that because well-meaning advice in the wrong context is worse than no advice at all.
00:43:41.320 --> 00:43:45.231 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. Yes, a great point. Yeah. So
00:43:47.060 --> 00:43:50.480 Mira Brancu: it looks like we're getting close to the ad break.
00:43:50.640 --> 00:43:58.743 Mira Brancu: and I don't want to cut us off by starting level. 2 ideas, tips, tricks.
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:12.529 Mira Brancu: so I'm going to keep people on the edge of their seat. Go into the ad break, and then when we come back, we're gonna get into that level 2, some tips and tricks around listening into to the content.
00:44:12.660 --> 00:44:16.940 Mira Brancu: We'll be right back in just a moment with the hard skills
00:45:54.810 --> 00:46:01.890 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Oscar Tremboli, of how to listen.
00:46:02.090 --> 00:46:14.160 Mira Brancu: We started discussing the 5 levels of listening. He gave us a good overview and some really great tips, especially at the 1st Level listening to self.
00:46:14.670 --> 00:46:18.850 Mira Brancu: And so we don't have that much time to cover all
00:46:19.354 --> 00:46:25.190 Mira Brancu: and I'm wondering if it makes more sense to cover level 2, which is like the
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:28.330 Mira Brancu: seems like the tipping point of like
00:46:28.940 --> 00:46:37.409 Mira Brancu: what you need in order to get into the higher level, more difficult ones. Or if we want to sort of give, you know broader tips across.
00:46:37.560 --> 00:46:42.919 Mira Brancu: It's up to you, Oscar. What would be most helpful? What do you think is most helpful for most people to hear
00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:47.785 Oscar Trimboli: For most people. 63% of people are stuck at level one. And
00:46:48.110 --> 00:46:48.760 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:51.320 Oscar Trimboli: We get to 93%
00:46:51.490 --> 00:46:55.829 Oscar Trimboli: level one and level 2, so it will cover off the majority. So level 2
00:46:55.830 --> 00:46:56.300 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:46:56.300 --> 00:47:01.879 Oscar Trimboli: Listening to the content. It's what you hear, what you see and what you sense.
00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:05.800 Oscar Trimboli: And as some people are primary visual
00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:23.690 Oscar Trimboli: listeners first, st and then auditory, and some are auditory, then visual. So the easy way to think about this is, do you prefer to listen with your eyes closed, or a podcast or do you prefer to watch on Youtube? That'll give you a little hint straight away
00:47:23.690 --> 00:47:24.330 Mira Brancu: I mean
00:47:24.330 --> 00:47:45.199 Oscar Trimboli: To make yourself conscious of your primary listening orientation. It's either primary, visual, or primary auditory, and if you're in a team meeting at work. If you feel safe, close your eyes for 2 min and go. Oh, that was really easy, or that's really hard. It's really easy, your primary auditory.
00:47:45.530 --> 00:47:50.490 Oscar Trimboli: So you want to hear, first, st see second sense, 3, rd
00:47:50.760 --> 00:48:01.039 Oscar Trimboli: and and the opposite is true there. So the hearing is, you know, just make sure that your body's in a position that there's no barriers.
00:48:01.250 --> 00:48:03.560 Oscar Trimboli: whether that's online or offline.
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:06.530 Oscar Trimboli: And think about the position in which you sit.
00:48:07.350 --> 00:48:12.900 Oscar Trimboli: because sometimes, just sitting with someone face to face may be better done walking.
00:48:13.170 --> 00:48:32.890 Oscar Trimboli: or maybe somebody that you're always doing a video conference with maybe do an audio call only and switch off the camera depending on their preference and yours. So at level 2, hearing is hearing the words, we make sense of it as we move up to level 3 and 4 and 5.
00:48:33.140 --> 00:48:45.939 Oscar Trimboli: The second one see? And Mira did a beautiful job in her story about somebody who got a different job. The body language was giving a completely incongruent signal to what the words were saying.
00:48:46.250 --> 00:48:51.419 Oscar Trimboli: Your job is not to judge that as Mira did, it's just to hold up a mirror.
00:48:52.150 --> 00:48:59.719 Oscar Trimboli: and they'll fill in the gaps for you. There's a lot of folk science around body language.
00:48:59.850 --> 00:49:15.490 Oscar Trimboli: and be careful. We interviewed Susan Constantine, the human lie detector. She's a jury consultant, and she said, you know, be careful. Someone might have their arms folded because they're cold and sitting under the air conditioning duct.
00:49:16.080 --> 00:49:17.960 Oscar Trimboli: The final one is sense
00:49:18.460 --> 00:49:38.019 Oscar Trimboli: senses, emotion. Some people say, Oh, I don't really like emotion at work. Sorry we're dealing with humans. And they have positive and other emotions. And it's your job to tune into that. Now, remember, if we're not available at level one, we can't even tune into that.
00:49:38.150 --> 00:49:40.820 Oscar Trimboli: So your ability to sense.
00:49:41.110 --> 00:49:44.220 Oscar Trimboli: Where is that sound coming from in their body?
00:49:46.200 --> 00:49:48.920 Oscar Trimboli: Is that coming from somewhere down deep
00:49:49.390 --> 00:49:53.129 Oscar Trimboli: in their diaphragm? Or is it coming up here from the top of the throat.
00:49:54.140 --> 00:50:06.989 Oscar Trimboli: It's all going to be signal for emotion. Are their shoulders back? Is their head tilted? All these things are tips for you to keep in mind when it comes to listening at level 2. See, hear.
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:08.520 Oscar Trimboli: and cents
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:17.030 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I I'm thinking of a few situations. I'm curious. Your thoughts on this.
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:29.750 Mira Brancu: First, st when we went to the virtual environment predominantly for some jobs, and many of them.
00:50:30.250 --> 00:50:35.770 Mira Brancu: On the one hand, it's easier to remain connected as a team if all cameras are. On.
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:42.410 Mira Brancu: On the other hand, there are people that hear better
00:50:42.690 --> 00:50:46.409 Mira Brancu: with the camera off when there's not as many things happening and
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:50.089 Mira Brancu: things distracting you in front of your face. Right?
00:50:50.856 --> 00:50:53.039 Mira Brancu: And then there's people with
00:50:53.630 --> 00:51:03.909 Mira Brancu: a variety of neurodiverse ways of interacting right where they might have different facial expressions.
00:51:05.590 --> 00:51:06.710 Mira Brancu: Or
00:51:07.230 --> 00:51:08.710 Oscar Trimboli: You know she looks
00:51:08.710 --> 00:51:11.099 Mira Brancu: Blank facial expressions, interactions.
00:51:12.500 --> 00:51:14.750 Mira Brancu: I'm curious if that's come up
00:51:14.870 --> 00:51:20.350 Mira Brancu: in your work, and how you might sort of like adjust or recommend navigating around that
00:51:20.740 --> 00:51:23.539 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah, and we've written a hundred and
00:51:23.910 --> 00:51:28.939 Oscar Trimboli: 10 page guide for how how to listen virtually as a host.
00:51:29.160 --> 00:51:36.659 Oscar Trimboli: So we do unpack this in a lot of detail. If you want additional resources, after that you'll be able to find it.
00:51:37.860 --> 00:51:43.549 Oscar Trimboli: Number One, your job as the host is not to mandate cameras on or off.
00:51:45.620 --> 00:51:51.360 Oscar Trimboli: If you're in a workplace with adults, then let them choose
00:51:53.050 --> 00:51:57.010 Oscar Trimboli: and give them a reason to have cameras on
00:51:58.160 --> 00:52:04.809 Oscar Trimboli: so a very simple example of this was, I was working with an organization
00:52:05.640 --> 00:52:13.080 Oscar Trimboli: where the values of the organization included authenticity and transparency.
00:52:15.200 --> 00:52:18.600 Oscar Trimboli: I thought that was great. How did I know their values?
00:52:18.740 --> 00:52:26.530 Oscar Trimboli: About half of the people had these virtual backgrounds with the values listed on them, and some people
00:52:26.740 --> 00:52:33.229 Oscar Trimboli: didn't. They had their bedroom in the middle of the pandemic, or wherever wherever they were coming in from.
00:52:33.610 --> 00:52:37.659 Oscar Trimboli: So I made a simple reflection to the group to go.
00:52:38.620 --> 00:52:40.659 Oscar Trimboli: Isn't it interesting
00:52:40.830 --> 00:52:51.680 Oscar Trimboli: that we connect differently. And the group did completely differently. Somebody noticed a painting in the background of somebody's home and commented on that, and it started a whole conversation.
00:52:51.990 --> 00:52:53.729 Oscar Trimboli: and there was a connection there.
00:52:54.160 --> 00:53:01.269 Oscar Trimboli: and I was working with this group over a monthly series. For for 6 months each month
00:53:01.740 --> 00:53:18.650 Oscar Trimboli: fewer and fewer people had their corporate background up, and more and more people were comfortable, showing what was in their background, because it created a completely different connection. Now mirrors probably played the game called spot. How many yodas are in Oscar's background? Right?
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:43.200 Oscar Trimboli: And and these are all gifts from clients, because for those of you who can't see me. I've got a yoda hairstyle, and some people say I talk like Yoda, but you know, clients send me those as gifts. So in the background. The reason I'm putting yodas in there is. I can talk to the different Yoda and the different client experience and all of that. And there's.
00:53:43.540 --> 00:53:51.810 Oscar Trimboli: There's things from John Deere Tractor in there, and there's things from Salesforce in there. There's a whole story, but also is my family there
00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:58.709 Oscar Trimboli: in various photos, and there's a photo of me on a mountain, and there's a whole story behind that.
00:53:59.200 --> 00:54:05.199 Oscar Trimboli: Be deliberate in your choice as a host about cameras on or cameras off
00:54:05.570 --> 00:54:12.269 Oscar Trimboli: one tip we talk about in the guide that people go. Wow! Oscar, that's the only tip I needed.
00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:15.870 Oscar Trimboli: The tip is hide self view.
00:54:17.350 --> 00:54:21.580 Oscar Trimboli: So you still can have your camera on. But you don't have to see yourself.
00:54:22.100 --> 00:54:31.689 Oscar Trimboli: And in the research done at Stanford, where they, during the pandemic they collected over 30,000 respondents to this survey.
00:54:32.160 --> 00:54:37.669 Oscar Trimboli: Women judge their appearance much more harshly than men.
00:54:37.940 --> 00:54:41.069 Oscar Trimboli: and it was exacerbated by self view
00:54:41.450 --> 00:54:48.620 Oscar Trimboli: in zoom or teams, or whatever the software you use. So as a host, give people a choice to
00:54:48.730 --> 00:54:52.029 Oscar Trimboli: put their cameras on, and then give them a reason.
00:54:52.370 --> 00:54:56.279 Oscar Trimboli: comment on something where the people do have their cameras on.
00:54:56.590 --> 00:55:01.740 Oscar Trimboli: Wow, Mira, I just noticed your face lit up when we mentioned this.
00:55:02.220 --> 00:55:09.539 Oscar Trimboli: You're signaling to everybody that you're actually watching what's going on, not just listening with your ears
00:55:10.420 --> 00:55:21.191 Mira Brancu: Beautiful lots of tips. Also, I didn't see the yodas in your background. What I was marveling at actually before was all of the calming warm lights
00:55:21.590 --> 00:55:21.930 Oscar Trimboli: Okay.
00:55:21.930 --> 00:55:34.516 Mira Brancu: That's what I noticed, and I thought, oh, he must be like one of those folks that are just like wanting to create a calming presence and a relaxing aura around him.
00:55:35.130 --> 00:55:36.689 Mira Brancu: Now, we are
00:55:36.690 --> 00:55:38.690 Oscar Trimboli: It's design, and it's deliberate
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:39.390 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:55:39.390 --> 00:55:40.379 Oscar Trimboli: Like Hawaii is. Yeah.
00:55:40.380 --> 00:56:01.540 Mira Brancu: That's right. That's right, exactly. We are reaching the closing end here, and I don't want to. I want to make sure that we don't overlook how people can find you and where they can learn more about your work. So for those of you who are watching, I have 2 websites up, Oscar, would you like to share a little bit more about these 2 websites?
00:56:02.100 --> 00:56:19.390 Oscar Trimboli: Yeah, you can find out about your own listening visit listeningquiz.com, and you can take a 7 min assessment. Get a tailored report that tells you primary and secondary listening barrier, and then we give you tips about what to do about it. So that's listeningquiz.com.
00:56:19.680 --> 00:56:32.170 Oscar Trimboli: And for those of you who are curious about the book. It's available wherever you can get books. And I'm biased. But the audiobook version is amazing. You can get the book, how to Listen.
00:56:32.170 --> 00:56:32.840 Mira Brancu: Is it you
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:33.550 Oscar Trimboli: Bamba.
00:56:33.970 --> 00:56:59.280 Oscar Trimboli: No, we've got a series of actors, voice actors that were part of it. It's a very different audio book experience. Everybody who listens to the I get more comments back from readers who listen via audio is like, Oh, wow! I thought I could just press play, and it would put me to sleep. But you've got all these techniques that I use in there to keep people's attention. Because, yeah, super interesting.
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:00.860 Oscar Trimboli: interesting list. Then, yeah.
00:57:01.130 --> 00:57:07.269 Mira Brancu: Now you got my attention, you know. Okay, so, audience, what did you take away?
00:57:07.820 --> 00:57:14.180 Mira Brancu: What is one small change that you can implement this week, based on what you learned from Oscar.
00:57:14.630 --> 00:57:20.219 Mira Brancu: or some of it, is just like, get the book and figure it out right, share it with us on Linkedin
00:57:20.670 --> 00:57:35.200 Mira Brancu: and@talkradio.nyc, so we can cheer you on talk. Radio is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, twitch, apple spotify Amazon Podcasts all over the place. If today's episode resonated with you, share it with a colleague, leave a review.
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:54.570 Mira Brancu: and if you're looking for more personalized support or leadership or team coaching. You could head to go towerscope.com, and schedule a consultation if you're looking for more support with listening. In particular, Oscar has described all kinds of ways. He can help you and your organization
00:57:55.250 --> 00:58:09.310 Mira Brancu: and thank you to talk radio Nyc for hosting together. We'll navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side. Thank you for joining me, Oscar Tromboli, today on this journey really appreciate you
00:58:10.200 --> 00:58:11.249 Oscar Trimboli: Thanks, for listening.
00:58:11.620 --> 00:58:22.549 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. And so this is Dr. Mira Branco, signing off until next time. Stay, steady, stay present, and keep building those hard skills. Take care, everybody
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