EPISODE SUMMARY:
Come and meet an insurance professional who will talk about and make the world of insurance interesting and see how and why insurance is extremely important in the cannabis and psychedelics spaces and how you can become an advocate to help push legislation through to make medical cannabis and psychdelics reimbursable by insurance.
1) What psychdelics are covered or potententially can be convered int he future?
2) What cannabis and psychdelic insurance Bills are working their way through NJ for reimbursement?
3) What model(s) is/are in place currently for cannabis and psychedelics until full insurace is passed?
4) What are CPT codes and why they are important to patients, professional and for remibursement?
5) How can you obtaine a medical card for cannabis and how can you sign up for discounts on medical cannabis and Ketamine-Assisted-Therapy (KAT).
6) What other alternative modalities such as (SGB, Red-Light Therapy, Wellness programs) will be or should be reimbursable by insurance?
7) How does putting these theries/modalites in place thrugh employee benfits adds to the business bottom line of financials and overall happiness.
Jack Thomas and Gaetano introduce The Happy Spot with a focus on alternative wellness approaches, featuring expert Nichelle Santos, who discusses the potential of medical cannabis and psychedelic-assisted therapy in revolutionizing healthcare. Santos highlights how integrating cannabis and ketamine-assisted therapy (CAT) into group health plans can improve accessibility, reduce reliance on addictive pharmaceuticals, and drive down healthcare costs. The discussion also touches on the evolving regulatory landscape, emphasizing the importance of safe, legal, and high-quality alternative treatments to enhance well-being and community health.
Jack Thomas and Gaetano highlight a groundbreaking development in New Jersey, where medical cannabis is now included as an employee health benefit in public sectors, with ketamine-assisted therapy (CAT) also being introduced as a cost-effective alternative for mental health and pain management. Nichelle Santos emphasizes how these innovative treatments provide a safer and more accessible option for individuals struggling with conditions like anxiety, PTSD, and chronic pain, reducing dependence on opioids and other harmful prescription drugs. The conversation underscores the broader movement toward integrating alternative therapies into mainstream healthcare, making wellness more attainable while fostering happier, healthier communities.
Psychedelics have been used for thousands of years for healing and spiritual growth, yet misconceptions remain about their potential. Experts like Sam Liebowitz emphasize the importance of education, guidance, and professional support when exploring psychedelic-assisted therapy, ensuring safe and transformative experiences. As alternative treatments like ketamine-assisted therapy gain momentum in mental health and pain management, integrating community support and spirituality into these practices can enhance well-being, helping individuals not just heal but elevate their consciousness for a more fulfilling life.
For those curious about psychedelics for healing but hesitant to take the first step, experts advise thorough research, open conversations, and seeking experienced guidance to ensure a safe and beneficial experience. As alternative treatments like ketamine-assisted therapy and medical cannabis become more accessible, individuals and employers alike are encouraged to advocate for these benefits to improve health outcomes and workplace well-being. With increasing clinical research and growing mainstream acceptance, the next five years could see significant advancements in the integration of these therapies into everyday healthcare, making transformative healing more widely available.
00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:57.709 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Right and welcome everyone to the happy spot. Unfortunately something happened with our host, who disappeared on us for a moment, and hopefully he will be back in a second.
00:00:59.810 --> 00:01:02.734 JACK THOMAS: Thank you, everybody. While we're waiting for Gaetano.
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:15.200 JACK THOMAS: I'm gonna cover this for us for a moment. So at the happy spot, what we do is we focus on alternative approaches for wellness. We are fortunate to have here today Nichelle Santos.
00:01:15.610 --> 00:01:43.529 JACK THOMAS: who is one of those women you read about and you go? Wow! How did she do it? And we get to have her here today? CEO cannabis coverage headquartered New Jersey over 260 clients. There's nothing but wisdom that we're going to hear from this professional Sam Lebowitz counterbalance on his background and experience within the ketamine area which then brings us back to Michelle.
00:01:43.630 --> 00:01:59.479 JACK THOMAS: She just launched a program with her partners, and I'll let her get into that. So but 1st let's go around and give them a little 30 second shout out about themselves who they are and what we're going to be touching upon today, Michelle, I'm going to turn the floor to you first, st please.
00:02:00.080 --> 00:02:27.759 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited to be here. So thanks, Jack. Thanks, Sam and Gaetano for having me on the show today. I think that your audience will be really interested to hear about the alternative benefits and treatments, the innovation in healthcare to really transform and revolutionize healthcare. I'm Michelle Santos, founder and CEO of Canada Coverage Insurance Services.
00:02:27.820 --> 00:02:42.909 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: My background is in environmental and occupational health and safety from Rutgers University and my public policy credentials stem from Harvard, Kennedy School and I started in insurance right out of college, in risk management.
00:02:42.980 --> 00:03:06.789 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and there I really developed an affinity for occupational safety and health and practiced process safety management as a safety engineer for several years, and then brought that expertise back to the insurance industry, this time as an insurance producer and launching Canada coverage to really focus on the emerging markets of cannabis and psychedelics.
00:03:07.010 --> 00:03:26.320 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So Canada coverage is a national insurance brokerage and consulting firm contributing to the success of a safe and legal cannabis and psychedelics, industries with compliance and risk management strategies and a full portfolio of insurance services.
00:03:26.370 --> 00:03:37.450 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: We bring business solutions to mitigate risks, protect businesses from failure, increase revenue to cannabis operators and increase the tax base for communities
00:03:37.640 --> 00:03:46.019 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: as well as to maintain public health and safety and really impact and uplift the community and the environment.
00:03:46.930 --> 00:04:00.519 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: What we're really excited about is the opportunity to transform healthcare with innovative alternatives, such as medical cannabis and ketamine assisted therapy as an employee benefit. Yeah.
00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:14.909 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: through group health plans, we can scale patient access and affordability as well as attract new patients to the industry that may have never tried any modality of cannabis to help the industry thrive.
00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:22.980 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: And this innovation is an is an alternative to opioids and other addictive prescription drugs
00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.270 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and or those that cause harmful adverse effects.
00:04:27.960 --> 00:04:35.439 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: As if that weren't enough. These alternative treatments also bring significant cost savings to healthcare spin.
00:04:35.630 --> 00:04:49.409 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: This country is facing continuous health care. Double digit increases. This cost savings in medical and prescription plans is significant to any company's bottom line.
00:04:50.410 --> 00:05:01.639 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So you know, we're just living through a quite a pivotal and historic moment to revolutionize the healthcare industry with alternative treatments
00:05:01.810 --> 00:05:28.579 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: such as medical cannabis, ketamine, assisted therapy that we call cat psychedelic assisted therapy that we refer to as pat. So we got cat and pat with medical cannabis. Plant-based medicine belongs in healthcare and is now available for group health benefits as a way to scale patient access and affordability, and also serve as a way to reduce the amount of prescription drugs patients consume
00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:39.229 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: which they're very often overprescribed drugs that are then layered with an additional cocktail of prescriptions to counteract the original prescription.
00:05:39.340 --> 00:05:51.599 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So this is where we find issues with addiction or the adverse effects that may impact the organs or lead to organ failure, such as the heart liver, or kidneys.
00:05:52.690 --> 00:06:07.499 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: the disruption and development of alternative treatments, increased awareness, research, and development provides a real opportunity for medical and social impact to improve health outcomes. And as we know, health is wealth.
00:06:07.780 --> 00:06:20.759 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: we often take health for granted. But when our health is at risk, it has an impact on our ability to be productive, whether in our career or in our personal lives, and as a taxpaying citizen.
00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:25.970 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: chronic illness and chronic pain has an ill effect on the community.
00:06:26.140 --> 00:06:34.429 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: And, on the other hand, when people are healthy, productive, and as a taxpaying paying citizen, our communities thrive.
00:06:34.590 --> 00:06:40.040 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So it's time that we democratize integrative cannabis cat and pat
00:06:40.230 --> 00:06:43.630 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: as a pathway to reimagine healthcare.
00:06:45.470 --> 00:06:56.740 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Thank you, Michelle. Did you guys have a chance to introduce yourself? We're live. And obviously we have high winds here in New Jersey. And once again my computer got blown blown out. So you guys had a chance to introduce yourselves right.
00:06:57.150 --> 00:07:02.139 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Well, Michelle just introduced herself, and I am happy to introduce myself.
00:07:02.140 --> 00:07:15.160 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yes, please, Sam, and tell us while you introduce yourself. I also want in your intro. Can you tell us a little bit about the Double Diamond. Wellness and Ketamine assisted therapy, and why you decided to incorporate that into your business.
00:07:15.310 --> 00:07:44.019 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Sure. Sure. Thank you, Gaetano, and and I just want to thank you for bringing me onto your show and to be here on the happy spot. I always appreciate the opportunity, being a host of a show myself, to be on the other side of the microphone, as they say, is always fun. But my wife and I run Double Diamond Wellness, which is a small wellness center in Upper Manhattan. We started it back in 14 and a half years ago.
00:07:44.020 --> 00:07:53.389 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: when we originally took over an acupuncture practice from a gentleman I met who had decided to become a Buddhist monk.
00:07:53.390 --> 00:08:16.069 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: and he was selling off all his worldly possessions, and originally I thought I would just help him to sell his businesses. Instead, we ended up buying it ourselves, and we turned his acupuncture practice into a more generalized wellness center, where not only did we have an acupuncturist working with us, but naturopathic doctors, people who did biofeedback energy medicine.
00:08:16.070 --> 00:08:41.329 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: and then my wife Hongzhong is an Lcsw. A licensed, clinical social worker who's now been doing psychotherapy work for over 20 years. She's a certified emdr therapist. She does somatic intervention. And then, most recently, in the last 4 years, she's been doing. Ketamine assisted psychotherapy or cap
00:08:41.620 --> 00:09:05.709 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: she trained with Phil Wolfson, who's considered like the godfather of Ketamine, and after having her own, you know, in this experiential training she had such a profound experience that she really decided she wanted to bring it out to more people so sort of as a counterbalance to Michelle, who's looking really at the macro level and
00:09:05.710 --> 00:09:15.690 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: bringing this work out to thousands and thousands of people. We just run a small practice here in Manhattan.
00:09:15.690 --> 00:09:45.130 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: where we work with individual clients. So that's my wife and I focus more on the preparation, education, and integration for people engaged in doing psychedelic work. Because I've just found that there's so much misconception. There's so much misinformation. There's so many people who are, you know, engaging and using these very powerful substances, and they really
00:09:45.130 --> 00:09:58.850 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: have no idea what they're doing. They're doing things sometimes in a very unsafe way. I've heard lots and lots of horror stories, and so I'm really looking to educate the public
00:09:58.900 --> 00:10:11.690 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: about a safer way of approaching it. And and my wife, with her clinical background, can really bring a much more professional
00:10:11.880 --> 00:10:15.090 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: approach to working with psychedelics.
00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:42.790 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yeah. And listen. The mom and pop practices are the backbone of America. Right? So, kudos to your wife and yourself for the business, Michelle. The Us. Is changing their views on cannabis 39 States across the country have legalized medical cannabis or the adult use market. We'll wait to see how the new Administration will move toward or not, forward or not with the federal legalization of cannabis. What are your thoughts.
00:10:43.550 --> 00:10:48.656 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Well, that's a great question, and we can spend an hour and a half on that alone.
00:10:48.940 --> 00:10:49.670 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah, I know
00:10:49.670 --> 00:11:11.119 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: I'll try to be brief, but the impact of a trump administration along with the new Dea and Us. Attorney general leadership on cannabis legalization is significant. The cannabis industry is divided. Some see potential reform. If trump sees political or economic gain, while others fear a setback.
00:11:11.350 --> 00:11:19.859 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: The National Law Review notes that rescheduling cannabis could boost investment and ease tax burdens.
00:11:19.860 --> 00:11:42.839 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: but reversing Biden's efforts, could stall progress. So some key points are the Dea's role. Biden's administration moved to reschedule cannabis right to reclassify from schedule, one on that controlled substance list to schedule 3. But Trump's Dea pick, Derek Maltz.
00:11:42.930 --> 00:11:44.340 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: He opposes it.
00:11:44.490 --> 00:12:07.919 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: The process is currently stalled due to legal challenges and Dea objections. So there's a lawsuit filed that really wants to take the Dea out of the equation and making these decisions as the Department of health and human services made the recommendation to move forward.
00:12:09.060 --> 00:12:23.230 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: And then we have Pam Bondi, the Us. Attorney General, and her influence, so she's known for strict cannabis enforcement may shape Federal policy, but could defer to Trump's economic priorities.
00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:30.630 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So the jury's still out on that and then we have Hhs. Secretary
00:12:30.690 --> 00:12:57.189 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Rfk. Robert Kennedy, and he advocates for legalization, but is expected to align with administration policy. So he's come forward prior to being on this administration as an advocate for cannabis psychedelics. And but now he's kind of retracted that, and is looking to just align with the current administration.
00:12:57.230 --> 00:13:18.870 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So life goes on, no matter who's in power. And Gaetano. What I'm excited about is we're now at the end of prohibition for cannabis and perhaps for psychedelics, and certainly for ketamine assisted therapy and the emergence of a safe, legal, equitable, and sustainable cannabis industry
00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:46.620 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: for both the medical cannabis market and the adult use market. So there are a number of reasons why I highlight, safe and legal. And we heard Sam speak about that as well. That's critically important, because cannabis products are consumed. Ketamine assisted. Therapy is consumed and we want to ensure products are upheld to high standards for quality and safety
00:13:47.010 --> 00:14:15.739 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: products go through rigorous Qc. Measures, quality control measures and have to be tested by licensed laboratories, and although the industry was built through the legacy market for cannabis and a little bit in ketamine as well, there were always risks involved with contamination of foreign substances, whether mold mite, spiders to Fentanyl, and other harmful or deadly ingredients.
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:37.919 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So for cannabis there are 4 specifications to contribute to the overall quality and experience of products. And that's identity, purity, strength, and composition. They all play a vital role in ensuring consumer safety, product consistency and regulatory compliance.
00:14:38.230 --> 00:14:53.579 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: The cannabis industry is rapidly developing many cannabis products with a variety of strains and terpenes to experience a number of modalities, whether it's a flower to inhale an edible or gummy
00:14:54.030 --> 00:15:01.159 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: as a beverage, or a topical to alleviate symptoms for over 70 conditions and illnesses.
00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:23.869 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yep, and I'm on the fence with the administration with cannabis. Maybe I don't see it happening. But with the psychedelics I'm more leaning towards. It's a possible, because we do have Rfk. Jr. And Elon Musk there, so we'll see what happens with that. They are advocates. But we'll go to break. Now, when we come back we'll find out how you made history in New Jersey and in the nation. So we'll go to break and be back in a minute.
00:17:08.970 --> 00:17:33.949 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Welcome back to talk radio. Nyc, I'm your host, Gaetano Lardieri. So let's get into this history making. So Michelle Benavis, Health Leafwell and Canada coverage have made history in New Jersey by making medical cannabis benefits available to the public sector. This is incredible news. To make transformative strides in health care what towns have signed up for the benefits in the offering. Can you please, elaborate on that.
00:17:34.430 --> 00:18:00.539 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah, Gaetano, you're absolutely right. We're so excited to announce this new news. We've made history, indeed, the city of Trenton, New Jersey, which is our State capital, as well as the school districts of Teaneck, Orange, and East Orange have opted into this new employee health benefit with having medical cannabis as a benefit.
00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:02.380 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: The process.
00:18:02.520 --> 00:18:15.740 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: In the pathway to increase patient access and affordability, and the alternative to replace prescription drugs for common conditions like pain, anxiety, and sleep disorders.
00:18:15.860 --> 00:18:27.359 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So public entities can readily add coverage for these new and innovative treatments for their employees and their families, using safe and effective standards of care
00:18:27.770 --> 00:18:39.300 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and studies show that improved health outcomes lead to greater productivity, increased retention, lower medical costs and pharmaceutical costs
00:18:39.320 --> 00:19:05.759 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: which saves the employer on health care, spend, and a more engaged workforce. And it's just really a win-win situation. Again. We're the 1st ones in the country to do this Benabis health Leafwell, and it's quite a process with Leafwell offering the telehealth doctors. So when the patient
00:19:06.360 --> 00:19:19.319 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: goes to get their medical card, they just schedule an appointment with a telehealth, doc, and pay a copay just like any other doctor visit. So it makes it really easy, convenient.
00:19:19.320 --> 00:19:38.299 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and then the patient is able to shop at dispensaries that are in their network. And there they get this 20 to 25% discount in addition to not having to pay that state tax for their purchase. So this leads to a substantial savings
00:19:38.300 --> 00:19:40.960 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: for patients to get their medicine.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:20:09.929 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and at the same time this is not a checkers game. This is a chess match. We're also speaking to the healthcare carriers, so that one day cannabis becomes reimbursable, a reimbursable benefit. And I look forward to the day when you pick up your insurance id card, and you have your medical, your prescription, dental vision, as well as your medical cannabis
00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:31.970 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: program with that network of dispensaries where you can shop at. So it's exciting. We already have the 3rd party administrator, which is a key ingredient in the healthcare carrier ecosystem. They're the ones that adjudicate the claims, and
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:37.520 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: so Meritain has stepped forward to make this process viable
00:20:37.810 --> 00:20:43.679 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and bring these programs to the public sector in New Jersey.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:21:01.140 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Congratulations that's outstanding. And we actually need all legal states to do this. And we need the cannabis businesses to to lead in this space, and the ketamine assisted therapy. So Sam, as a owner of a business that offers ketamine, assisted therap. How does that model sound to you
00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:02.640 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: as a provider.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:06.000 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: I? Well, I think it's great cause. The challenge with
00:21:06.150 --> 00:21:11.829 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: with really reaching and serving patients is the affordability.
00:21:11.860 --> 00:21:41.129 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: because even though an insurance will cover maybe a preparation session or an integration session. The actual dosing session is not just 60 min. It's typically 3 h, and they won't cover that. And so it becomes very expensive. And I remember I was at 2 years ago at the Psychedelic Sciences Conference in Denver, where they talked about all different kinds of psychedelic therapies, and even where there were legal options.
00:21:41.170 --> 00:22:03.879 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: how the the speakers noted that even the legal options were so so expensive, and that the people there kind of came forward and said, Yeah, well, I guess there's always going to be a need for the underground movement where things are much more affordable for people, but you know that can be tricky in and of its own right.
00:22:04.280 --> 00:22:09.039 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: So this is a model you could encourage business owners like yours to sign on to.
00:22:09.220 --> 00:22:35.539 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think it. It benefits everyone when we're looking at something that's really going to serve the health, whether it's the physical health or the mental health of employees rather than just doing things the same old way. The more employees feel you're taking care of them, the more motivated and the more engaged they're going to be in doing the best they can at work.
00:22:35.780 --> 00:22:47.069 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Absolutely 100%. And Michelle, you mentioned the common conditions that are impacted by medical cannabis like pain, anxiety, sleep, disorders. But talk about some of the more serious conditions.
00:22:47.420 --> 00:23:08.729 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah. And and I will do that. But, Gaitano, I just want to let the audience know that not only is it medical cannabis as a benefit. But we're we've stepped forward with ketamine, assisted therapy as a benefit as well, because ketamine is much more expensive than
00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:18.480 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: cannabis, and employers are coming forward now, understanding that cost benefit analysis of, you know.
00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:23.910 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: medical treatments, pharmaceutical treatments, costs X
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:43.180 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: XY. And Z. And it's much more cost effective to to bring. Ketamine assisted therapy for chronic pain, mental illness. Ptsd, so I just wanted to let the audience know that both are available with
00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:55.020 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: cana coverage, benabis health and enthea. We've we've brought these programs to the marketplace, and it's available for both private and public sector.
00:23:55.090 --> 00:23:55.890 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So.
00:23:56.659 --> 00:23:57.819 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Outstanding. Yeah.
00:23:57.820 --> 00:24:10.669 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah. But when we talk about the over 70 medical conditions and illnesses that are impacted by medical cannabis and as well as ketamine
00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:40.279 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: anorexia add and Adhd autism aids and HIV. Cancer, cerebral palsy, cystic, fibrosis, epilepsy, glaucoma, hepatitis, c headaches and migraines, lupus, multiple sclerosis or ms nausea sickle cell opioid disorder, depression, Ptsd
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:42.719 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: chronic pain.
00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:57.209 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: arthritis, and Parkinson's disease. There's the list goes on. So I'm not going to read the whole thing, but there's so many more conditions and illnesses that are improved through medical cannabis as well as ketamine, assisted therapy.
00:24:57.210 --> 00:25:10.399 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Absolutely. And can you talk Michelle to us about the opioid epidemic substance, abuse, and chronic pain? And how cannabis and cat and pat can be used as harm reduction.
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:26.759 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Absolutely. We know the impact of substance abuse in this country. It's been devastating. It affects people of all backgrounds with alcohol, opioids and heroin being the most commonly abused.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:40.730 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Prevention, education, harm, reduction and treatment programs play key roles. In addressing these crises with medical cannabis cat impact proving effective in harm. Reduction.
00:25:41.010 --> 00:25:44.910 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: mental health and addiction are deeply connected.
00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:58.260 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Many with substance use disorders also struggle with conditions like depression or anxiety, creating a cycle of dependency, so treating both simultaneously is crucial.
00:25:58.610 --> 00:26:09.899 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Chronic pain leads to opioid prescriptions, increasing the risk of dependence and addiction. So a balanced approach, including alternative treatments
00:26:10.020 --> 00:26:15.020 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: with careful monitoring is essential for effective pain, management.
00:26:15.340 --> 00:26:26.170 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Absolutely, and we'll go to a break. When we come back. We'll ask Sam about psychedelics and how they're becoming more mainstream. So let's go to a break, and we'll be back in a minute on talk radio.
00:26:35.360 --> 00:26:38.910 JACK THOMAS: The amount of information that I've received from the 2 of you.
00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:48.769 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: And we'll go to break.
00:28:19.080 --> 00:28:35.619 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Okay, welcome back to talk radio. Nyc, I'm your host, Gaitano Lardieri. So Sam, psychedelics are becoming more mainstream. But there's still some stigma and misunderstanding around them. How would you address concerns or misconceptions about these therapies?
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:59.300 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: So the 1st thing I always try and let people know is that these amazing substances have been used for thousands and thousands of years in indigenous cultures and not just in indigenous cultures. They recently found evidence of ergo, which is the mold that Lsd comes from in some pottery from ancient Greece.
00:28:59.300 --> 00:29:12.700 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: So this is nothing new. People have been using things like magic mushroom psilocybin for quite a long time. Things like Ayahuasca and San Pedro in South America.
00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:28.829 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: you know, this tradition goes back in South America at least 3,000 years. Okay, so these are not like new things that we've just discovered in the last, you know, 100 years. Far from it.
00:29:29.371 --> 00:29:35.150 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: However, we in some ways have lost the sort of the indigenous
00:29:35.370 --> 00:29:43.780 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: culture around it, and how it's a rite of passage and and how to properly mentor someone through it.
00:29:44.070 --> 00:29:57.180 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: And and, like myself, like most people, you know, during high schools, we were doing all kinds of things without any guidance, without really researching anything, without educating ourselves about it.
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:58.500 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: And
00:29:58.820 --> 00:30:07.209 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: when you engage in something without like researching things a little bit. You're really missing out on a great opportunity.
00:30:07.370 --> 00:30:13.329 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: And and and because they are very powerful substances.
00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:17.730 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: you know, they can lead to some very unexpected results.
00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:45.989 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: So the idea of having a mentor having a facilitator having a guide who's more experienced than you, who's been around been involved for a long time, who can answer your questions. Finding someone who's good like that, I think, is just essential for anyone looking to do this, and especially if you want to do things in a clinical environment like working with someone like my wife, who's a psychotherapist
00:30:45.990 --> 00:30:57.380 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: works with with ketamine. You know that that is a very professional approach to it. It may not be for everyone, but at least consider it.
00:30:57.380 --> 00:31:01.729 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yeah, absolutely. And you know also what we borrow from. And we
00:31:01.860 --> 00:31:29.649 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: oh, the indigenous people so much. But another area I like very much is a community setting and group setting with therapy. I think, borrowing that from the indigenous community and bringing it into the Western setting can really help people treat a lot of people and be affordable. But we'll talk about that later. But, Michelle, let me ask you, ketamine is an FDA. Approved medication that doctors use as an anesthetic to induce loss of consciousness
00:31:29.650 --> 00:31:48.399 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: under the Controlled Substance Act. Health experts consider ketamine a schedule. 3. Non-narcotic substance cat is being used for mental health disorders, depression. Ptsd. Chronic pain disorders is cat available as an employee benefit like cannabis. Can you talk a little bit more? I know you mentioned earlier. But talk a little bit more about that.
00:31:48.860 --> 00:32:08.100 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah. In. In a word, yes, it is available as an employee. Health benefit cana coverage has been working with companies like Enthea and and miko that now offer ketamine assisted therapy as as that benefit.
00:32:08.100 --> 00:32:32.532 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So we have a network of providers. That such as Sam's wife. I can't wait to meet her. Because we look forward to crossing the river and working with folks in in New York City, in New York State as well as across the the country. It's it's just amazing how this is really spreading. And
00:32:33.370 --> 00:32:42.274 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: like, Sam said. This has been around for for thousands of years. And when we talk about medical cannabis
00:32:42.810 --> 00:32:57.999 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: I just want to mention that General George Washington, in his diary, talks about using hemp cannabis, and who knows whatever else but they? They use it to keep the horses calm from the sound of the
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:19.210 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: the cannons and the muskets, and the soldiers. You know, they didn't have nike sneakers like we have. So they used to use cannabis topicals to rub on the soldiers feet. So these practices have. These alternative practices have been around for thousands of years, and
00:33:19.210 --> 00:33:28.059 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and now, you know, we're ending prohibition. We have the Psilocybin Bill in New Jersey.
00:33:28.060 --> 00:33:52.000 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and we're looking to move that forward the day has come for to offer these alternatives and plant over pills is what we say. So we're proud to introduce this to the employer groups not only, you know, when you know better, you do better. So not only is it the
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.590 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: when we know better, it's morally the right thing to do. But there's an economic impact when you talk about
00:33:59.494 --> 00:34:22.580 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: what it means, for I have some interesting statistics, a study by Jama, which is the Journal of American Medical Association, states that mental health issues contribute to one trillion dollars, loss to us, businesses in annual employee, loss, productivity, and attrition. One trillion.
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:23.600 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Hmm.
00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:36.409 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: And that's just for mental health. So that's Ptsd suicidal ideation, and all the other disorders under mental health
00:34:36.409 --> 00:35:04.050 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: and a study by the health economist from John Hopkins University estimated that chronic pain cost the nation up to 635 billion annually, really surpassing the yearly cost for cancer, heart disease and diabetes. Those are astronomical numbers. So when we know better, we do better, there's an economic impact to bringing these alternative medicines.
00:35:04.090 --> 00:35:06.270 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: And we know that
00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:28.390 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: there are impacts based on case studies. So in 2022, there's a systematic review of 28 clinical studies found and ketamine infusion resulted in a significant decrease in depressive symptoms over only after 4 h.
00:35:28.390 --> 00:35:37.500 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Right? Post infusion. That's a rapid turnaround compared to 30 to 60 days of the traditional drugs that are on the market.
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:37.970 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Right.
00:35:37.970 --> 00:35:54.749 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Improvement in depressive symptoms peaked after 24 h, post infusion and symptom improvement remains significant even after 7 days. Post infusion. And that's just the 1st treatment.
00:35:54.750 --> 00:35:55.330 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Right.
00:35:55.952 --> 00:36:07.777 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Ketamine infusion significantly improves symptoms in treatment, resistant depression. Patients like patients who don't respond well to those traditional
00:36:08.570 --> 00:36:13.479 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: medicines and then for pain.
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:33.860 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: for chronic pain. A. 2024. Systematic review of 35 clinical studies evaluating the effectiveness of ketamine and reducing cancer-related pain found ketamine significantly reduced. Pain, intensity
00:36:34.290 --> 00:36:41.329 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: significantly reduce morphine dosage. Right? That's critical. Ketamine treated
00:36:41.720 --> 00:37:11.149 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: groups had significantly less adverse effects, such as nausea, vomiting, constipation, hallucinations respiratory depression, pretty serious there, and in a 2022 review of 18 clinical studies, evaluating the effectiveness of ketamine and reducing neuropathic pain, found Ketamine slightly reduced pain intensity after one week.
00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:18.219 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: but then it was significantly reduced after 30 days of treatment completion.
00:37:18.370 --> 00:37:25.579 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: So you know, really significant results. And the the time is now.
00:37:26.140 --> 00:37:34.869 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yeah. And if anyone's interested, that bill in New Jersey is S. 2,283 s. 2283. Call your legislators tell them you want the Service Center
00:37:34.870 --> 00:37:59.169 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Bill Shepherd along. And actually there was a great case study with Dr. Bronner's. So Dr. Bronner's offered. Ketamine assisted therapy to his employees. I think 7% of the employees took advantage and listen to these statistics. I'm going to read them. So there was an 86% improvement in post-traumatic stress disorder, 67% improvement in major depressive disorder
00:37:59.170 --> 00:38:08.249 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: and 65% improvement in generalized anxiety disorder. And then, after one year, 82% reported they are no longer taking antidepressants. So
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:25.229 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: the the results are just undeniable, absolutely. But let me go back to Sam and ask, Sam, how do you feel? A practitioner should ensure the use of psychedelics in therapy is done ethically and responsibly, especially as this field continues to grow.
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:32.909 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: So you know, one of the advantages of working with a professional practitioner or guide
00:38:32.990 --> 00:38:55.420 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: is is, 1st of all, letting them know what you're doing as opposed to like kind of band-aiding and pot marking, going here, going here, going there, doing all of that, because you can end up doing way too much. And you know there are many famous examples of people getting just one thing getting addicted to ketamine.
00:38:55.470 --> 00:39:06.919 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: There's a very famous story of Dr. John C. Lilly in the seventies of his experience, getting very addicted to ketamine, I think twice
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:27.159 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: until he got into recovery and got out of it. And so when you're working with a therapist, they're keeping an eye on how much you're doing when you're doing it, making sure you're not doing it too frequently. So when you're working with a professional, they're going to keep their eye on you. There's going to be some checks and balances in there.
00:39:27.600 --> 00:39:49.279 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: One thing I will say, though, that look, you know, we're all human beings. Sometimes people make mistakes, and we have to check in with ourselves about what feels right for us, and not always put it on the professional, or put it on someone else. If they say, Oh, you can do this, you can do that if it doesn't feel right for us.
00:39:49.670 --> 00:39:58.889 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: I always say, take your own advice first, st before giving up your agency to someone else, whether they're a professional or not.
00:39:59.620 --> 00:40:10.080 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Exactly. No. And, Sam, what role does community and connection play in the integration process? And and how do you foster that in your practice.
00:40:10.650 --> 00:40:36.049 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Yeah, community is so so important. I've seen it in in ceremonial work myself. When a group of people come together to heal and and people can share sometimes their trauma and their past, and people hear stories that are like, Oh, my God! That's like me! I had that, too, and just knowing that there's somebody else who has had the same experience that in and of itself can be so healing.
00:40:36.060 --> 00:40:43.650 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: But community is also really important in the integration process afterwards. You know, we we tend to talk about.
00:40:43.650 --> 00:41:07.179 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: You know, the psychedelic experience, the peak experience as if it's the be all and end all, and it's actually not. And one of the things, especially with ketamine, assisted psychotherapy as opposed to just doing an infusion on your own when you're actually working with a therapist. There's preparation beforehand. There's integration afterwards. And so when you have integration, not just by yourself, but with a group of
00:41:07.180 --> 00:41:07.950 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: people
00:41:07.950 --> 00:41:28.040 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: that community can support each other. And people can share resources like, oh, here's a podcast that I listen to. Oh, here's a practice that I'm doing, hey, does anybody know of someone who's a grief counselor, hey? Do you know somebody? Do you know any support groups for parents who've lost children? And now they start sharing resources, and so the
00:41:28.120 --> 00:41:35.449 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: combination of everybody working together. It's so much richer and fuller than just doing everything on your own.
00:41:35.870 --> 00:41:51.739 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Absolutely 100%. I agree with that 100% and getting the word out there and getting it done the right way in a safe and efficacious model is what we're shooting for here. And, Sam, how do you see the intersection of science and spirituality in.
00:41:51.740 --> 00:41:52.330 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: The context.
00:41:52.330 --> 00:41:54.169 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Psychedelics, assisted therapy.
00:41:54.690 --> 00:42:01.040 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Well, you know, it's 1 of the things for me that I've really been looking at over the last several years.
00:42:01.720 --> 00:42:04.959 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: because, just from my own experience.
00:42:05.090 --> 00:42:29.519 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Working with psychedelics can be an extremely spiritual experience. You know. They did the studies with psilocybin back in the day about having a mystical experience. It was like a mystical evaluation. And when the work that they've done with cancer patients around end of life and working with psilocybin on that has totally changed their perspective. And
00:42:29.520 --> 00:42:42.920 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: and so many people who before were atheistic or didn't believe, thought that at the end of life like that was it that suddenly. They've had this transcendent experience, and now they're not so afraid of death.
00:42:42.930 --> 00:43:09.720 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: To me. There's a real opportunity, and there are starting to be more and more sort of psychedelic related churches being approved by the Dea, where now, you know, we talked about community before. So where there's community, and there's a more spiritual aspect put around using these substances, which is what the indigenous cultures have been saying for thousands of years, to begin with.
00:43:09.780 --> 00:43:17.690 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: So of course, there's this, you know, very medicalized model of psychedelics, of just for healing.
00:43:18.310 --> 00:43:46.890 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: But once you've gotten past healing, then what then? It's about elevating our consciousness, then it's about using these substances as a spiritual practice that can make us even better human beings. It's like the healing process is just to help us to get from from being sort of underwater to above ground, and then the spiritual practice is to take us from above ground to a higher way of existing, of living.
00:43:47.230 --> 00:44:00.699 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Absolutely. I agree, 1,000%. And when we come back we'll go to break. And then when we come back, we'll ask Sam about what will be the 1st steps if someone's hesitance. So let's go to a break, and we'll on the other other end. We'll ask Sam about that.
00:45:38.120 --> 00:45:54.269 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Welcome back to talk radio. Nyc, I'm your host, Gaetano Larderi and Sam. I have another question. What advice would you give someone who is curious about exploring psychedelics for healing, but feels hesitant or unsure about taking that 1st step.
00:45:55.390 --> 00:46:19.919 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: So I believe so much in educating yourself before you take a step into it. Do some research. There's so much information out there online and talk to people. You'd be surprised how many people are actually using psychedelics and working with therapists and people in order to
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:44.070 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: help with their healing process. I mean, I know even many people in the orthodox Jewish community who are going that route as well, and people think of them as like some of the most conservative people. So sometimes it's just about opening your mouth and asking the people, you know, like, Hey, do you know anything about this, but find an experienced guide, find an experienced practitioner.
00:46:44.090 --> 00:47:02.999 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: And if you again want to follow sort of the more traditional routes, even, you just go on psychology today and search for psychotherapists who do. Ketamine assisted psychotherapy. You're going to find a bunch of people you can talk to right there, but you know, don't just pick one, and then just go work with that one.
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:16.300 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Talk to a couple of people, see who resonates with you see, who feels right for you. Sometimes I think we kind of rush into things without taking a little bit of time to see. Well, how does it really feel to me?
00:47:16.580 --> 00:47:25.250 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: And sometimes just checking in and taking a moment and and not rushing so much, we can actually make much better decisions.
00:47:25.250 --> 00:47:29.599 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yeah, and get that second and 3rd opinion if you, if you need it, right.
00:47:29.600 --> 00:47:31.050 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Right, exactly.
00:47:31.050 --> 00:47:55.139 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Nichelle. So ketamine has been long used as an illicit drug since the seventies. But this is ketamine as medicine prescribed by medical practitioner. Any drug can be dangerous, including over the counter medication, like Tylenol, or even cold medicine, that contains codeine or other ingredients. This is about the evolution of medicine and making it accessible as an alternative. So tell me, are you excited, Nichelle?
00:47:55.140 --> 00:48:22.189 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Absolutely. I can't tell you how excited I am. I'm just really pleased to hear Sam speak about the healing, the body, the mind, the spirit, and you even had Dr. Henson on Maurice Henson on your show last week. And he spoke of the same because traditional Western medicine. Just it. It.
00:48:23.210 --> 00:48:47.459 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: It alleviates the symptoms. The drugs that are prescribed alleviates the symptoms of these conditions, but we all have to take a proactive approach for having control over our body and the direction you want treatment to that works best for you and for your family. So having these
00:48:48.357 --> 00:48:51.592 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: alternative treatments as a benefit.
00:48:52.340 --> 00:49:09.890 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: folks have to talk to their employers. Employers have to talk to the employees and make these benefits available. It's critically important. And it really takes a village to transform healthcare. So.
00:49:09.890 --> 00:49:27.379 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: talking to the healthcare community which includes the doctors and the nurses, the healthcare community. But we need the masses of employers, both public and private, to really advocate.
00:49:27.600 --> 00:49:41.380 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: educate, understand what these alternative benefits bring. And you know again, the the moral obligation. Now that we know we can work to reduce the stigma
00:49:41.830 --> 00:50:05.380 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: that exists and and see a real economic impacts because healthcare is increasing, you know, by double digits every year. So something has to give, and we know, plant over pills. It improves health outcomes. So yeah, I'm I'm truly excited about this, and the time has come.
00:50:05.380 --> 00:50:24.810 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yes, I'm excited as well. So yes. Call your legislators. Ask your legislators, ask your doctors, ask your healthcare professionals, and so on. So for the last couple of minutes I'm going to ask. Maybe there's questions you might want to ask each other as business owners and therapists and providers. What question would you ask Sam Michelle.
00:50:26.154 --> 00:50:31.195 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: I I would ask Sam. Can I meet his wife?
00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:40.790 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Absolutely, Michelle? Absolutely. She would love to meet with you, and she would love to find a way to participate in in what you're doing.
00:50:40.790 --> 00:50:47.560 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Is there any questions you have on some of the nuances of this model for the cannabis or the ketamine assisted therapy.
00:50:49.281 --> 00:51:11.349 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Well, I'm just curious. So if I understand it properly right, the service that you're providing is access to therapists like my wife, who are providing this kind of coverage as an employee benefit to a company's employees or staff.
00:51:11.833 --> 00:51:14.830 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: And I'm just curious if you've thought about maybe
00:51:14.970 --> 00:51:41.280 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: bringing a provider or 2 in to do like a lunch and learn for the companies that might be interested, so that the providers can kind of let the employees know. Hey, look, this is what we do. This is why it's good. This is what works, because I've seen that model used in the past for other things, and it was actually quite effective, so that, not only providing the benefit, but actually educating them a little bit in the process.
00:51:42.250 --> 00:52:05.259 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah, I think that's the right way to go, because as a healthcare consultant, I can talk about it from a high level, that macro level, but having the clinicians talk about the the benefits because they get to see firsthand, you know, talking about the treatment protocol and just
00:52:05.990 --> 00:52:18.750 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: sharing the results that they that they see firsthand from their practice. I think that's really important to share. So I look forward to doing that lunch and learn.
00:52:18.890 --> 00:52:36.290 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yeah, that's the best way, you know, doctor, to doctor, therapist to therapist. And you know there's a model where you can go around. Do like grand rounds, right? One of our physicians on staff can go and talk to other physicians about the treatments and so on. So that's a definite model we're looking into for the future, for sure.
00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:37.240 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yeah.
00:52:37.930 --> 00:52:44.900 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: But it's also about educating the employees because it's a benefit. If they don't understand the benefit, they may not take advantage of it.
00:52:45.140 --> 00:52:47.580 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: And they have to ask their employers as well. Right?
00:52:47.580 --> 00:52:48.000 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Right?
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:51.790 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Ask ask for it. Absolutely.
00:52:51.790 --> 00:53:17.770 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: That's why I say it always takes a village to make change. You really have to map out all the stakeholders like you, said Gaetano, from legislators to the healthcare community, to the providers and clinicians, to the the workforce and employer groups right. The Hr directors have to learn about this. They have to be. They have to know enough to be dangerous right
00:53:18.615 --> 00:53:40.484 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: to to offer this, but bringing those lunch and learns in house, and then exploring. You know the the group getaways, you know, employee getaways, whether it's the the C-suite only, or it's the group like Dr. Bronner did I, it's just fascinating that
00:53:41.040 --> 00:53:53.900 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: that employers are really investing in their employees and and focus on improving their health outcomes, healthy employees or productive employees, and that impacts your bottom line.
00:53:53.900 --> 00:54:02.960 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Yeah. And I say it all all the time. Data data data. You know, I have a saying in God, we trust, and all all others bring data. Right?
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:03.300 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: You're like.
00:54:03.540 --> 00:54:30.199 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: we always want to measure measure measure. And that's a bit in my wheelhouse from doing 26 years of cancer research and getting the FDA approvals, and so on. But that's what you got to do. You got to measure and bring those data to the legislators and bottom line. You know, bottom line is well for health and economics. So we've got to convince them that this is the thing to do. This is the future.
00:54:31.620 --> 00:54:33.070 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Absolutely.
00:54:34.090 --> 00:54:40.469 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Well, I I don't know if there's any more questions you have, or you want to ask each other.
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:45.171 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Well is, is Dr. Bronner on?
00:54:45.620 --> 00:54:48.950 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Hurdle was watching tonight. I think.
00:54:48.950 --> 00:54:52.577 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: I think he was on but this is definitely the future.
00:54:53.230 --> 00:54:59.889 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: we got to get more therapists involved and do more education around around for therapists, and the doctors.
00:55:00.100 --> 00:55:00.610 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Yeah.
00:55:00.610 --> 00:55:01.010 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Players.
00:55:01.010 --> 00:55:08.279 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: I mean, Gaetano. I'm curious from your perspective, since you brought us on, and you've brought on many other guests like.
00:55:08.600 --> 00:55:11.969 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: how do you see the future going. Do you see this stuff
00:55:12.070 --> 00:55:25.979 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: like like progressing like in the next year or 2? Or is it 5 years, 10 years horizon like, when do you think this will become like so common that that these types of conversations won't even be necessary?
00:55:25.980 --> 00:55:50.699 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: You know, when the data comes when the data comes in. So right now, if you look in clintrials.gov. So clintrials.gov is the database that's used by all the big pharmaceutical companies to enter their clinical trials. If you look there, there's about over a hundred studies in phase 2 with like psilocybin, and so on. Now those have to go to phase 3, and so on. But within the next 5 years we could have. Mdma was just. Obviously we all know the mdma.
00:55:50.700 --> 00:55:51.110 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Yeah.
00:55:51.110 --> 00:56:18.420 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Glycos. They might have another shot at that. But these have a timeline, and they're going through FDA approval. So within the next 5 years you could have multiple on label approved drugs for different indications. So look@theclintrials.gov, and you could see maybe there track the timeline. But I say, within the next 5 years we could have quite a few of these FDA approved psychedelics. For sure. Yeah, absolutely.
00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:19.910 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Wonderful, wonderful.
00:56:20.150 --> 00:56:22.750 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Okay, so let's go to our.
00:56:22.750 --> 00:56:35.709 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: Bringing these benefits to mainstream America, public sector, private sector. So if anyone out there is interested, you can find us@www.canada coverage.net.
00:56:35.710 --> 00:56:53.079 Nichelle Santos, CannaCoverage: or you can call our hotline at 855-02-2662, or reach me via email@nlikenancy.santos SANT. os@cannacoverage.net.
00:56:53.080 --> 00:56:56.629 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Fantastic. And, Sam, where can everyone reach you?
00:56:57.235 --> 00:57:17.919 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: They can find me and my wife@www.ddwc. As in Double Diamond. Wellnesscenter dot Nyc. Because we're New York centered not.com, but dot Nyc. And you can use the contact form to reach out to us, and we'd be happy to hear from any of you.
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:25.539 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Fantastic, and everyone can follow me on Linkedin, Gaetana, Lardieri on Linkedin, and we'll go to a break and come back on the other side.
00:57:25.540 --> 00:57:27.230 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: No, that's it for the show.
00:57:27.230 --> 00:57:27.610 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Well, that's.
00:57:27.610 --> 00:57:29.159 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Much Gaetano. Yep.
00:57:29.160 --> 00:57:30.059 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Oh, okay.
00:57:30.520 --> 00:57:32.499 Gaetano Lardieri FUNGGUY: Alright. Thanks everyone.
00:57:32.500 --> 00:57:33.399 Sam Liebowitz | www.DDWC.nyc: Thanks. Everyone.
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