Tuesdays: 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EST)
EPISODE SUMMARY:
In this session, we'll delve into how cultural and identity orientations shape workplace behavior and impact job and team fit. Gain fresh insights into how cultural attributes influence workflow, team collaboration, and decision-making. By understanding these dynamics, you can build a team that aligns with your workplace culture goals and ambitions.
We will touch on issues such as:
- How cultural backgrounds shape priorities, decision-making, and interactions in the workplace.
- Strategies for matching leaders' attributes to organizational functions and team goals to enhance performance.
- How individual contributors navigate their work environments and the factors that influence their approach to various scenarios.
- How cultural insights can guide team composition and individual roles, fostering a more cohesive and effective work environment.
By recognizing the profound impact of cultural and identity orientations, we can cultivate more inclusive, dynamic, and successful teams.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Rob Lion is a dynamic professor of human resource development at Idaho State University and the founder of Black River Performance Management, where his motto is "Work should fuel the spirit, not drain it." With over 20 years of experience in leadership, organizational development, and performance improvement, Rob is renowned for his innovative, people-first approach.
Holding a PhD in Training and Performance Improvement, he specializes in creating human-centric systems that drive growth and success within organizations. Rob leverages his deep understanding of human behavior and workplace psychology to simplify leadership complexities, equipping clients with science-backed strategies to enhance organizational culture and strengthen teams.
As a captivating speaker, Rob brings complex ideas to life with relatable stories, humor, and infectious energy. He has been featured on numerous podcasts, authored several academic papers, and is celebrated for bridging research with real-world practice. Whether addressing executives, leading workshops, or inspiring teams, Rob's passion for empowering individuals and transforming organizations leaves a lasting impression, making him a highly sought-after thought leader in his field.
***
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
www.gotowerscope.com
www.blackriverpm.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertlion/
How do cultural and identity orientations influence individual behavior within the workplace? Attendees will gain insights into the "how's" and "why's" of behavior, highlighting the importance of understanding these dynamics to build high-performing teams.
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
Dr. Mira Brancu’s latest episode of The Hard Skills explores the complexities of workplace culture and how leaders can navigate the challenges of hiring for "fit" without falling into bias. Featuring Professor Rob Lion, an expert in human resource development, the discussion highlights the importance of defining fit beyond personal comfort, using science-backed strategies to create inclusive, high-performing teams. Leaders looking to future-proof their organizations must refine their hiring and team development approaches to align talent with organizational culture while ensuring diverse perspectives drive success.
In this segment, Dr. Mira Brancu and Professor Rob Lion explore the pitfalls of hiring based on an unrealistic "wish list" rather than true organizational needs, often leading to high turnover and inefficiencies. Lion emphasizes the importance of identifying key personality and behavioral traits that align with a role, using data-driven assessments to de-bias hiring decisions and ensure a strong culture fit. By taking a structured approach to talent acquisition and defining fit beyond charisma or gut instinct, leaders can create workplaces that foster both high performance and long-term retention.
In this segment, Dr. Mira Brancu and Professor Rob Lion discuss how leaders can effectively onboard new hires while fostering an environment where both individual and team success thrive. Lion emphasizes that new employees enter with a strong desire to perform well, but organizations must provide structured onboarding, social integration, and ongoing support to ensure long-term fit. Additionally, he highlights the importance of frequent feedback loops—not just for low performers but also for high achievers—so that employees remain engaged, challenged, and aligned with the organization’s evolving needs.
In this final segment, Dr. Mira Brancu and Professor Rob Lion discuss how leaders can create environments where high performers and organizational misfits alike can thrive by balancing challenge with support. Lion highlights the importance of providing structured feedback, clearing obstacles, and fostering autonomy at the right pace to keep employees engaged and motivated. They also explore how cultural orientations influence workplace dynamics, emphasizing the need for leaders to understand individual and team needs to build resilient, high-performing organizations.
00:00:51.280 --> 00:01:05.130 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome to the hard skills show where we discuss how to develop the most challenging soft skills required to navigate today's leadership complexities and tomorrow's unknowns. I'm your host, Dr. Mira Branku.
00:01:05.710 --> 00:01:12.570 Mira Brancu: How do cultural and identity orientations influence individual behavior within workplaces?
00:01:12.730 --> 00:01:22.110 Mira Brancu: How do we think about culture fit? And you know how to sort of enhance the greatest performance and motivation out of our people.
00:01:22.270 --> 00:01:32.499 Mira Brancu: Season 6 is all about positive politics, and today we have Rob Leon, sharing his perspective on how to cultivate more inclusive, dynamic, high-performing teams.
00:01:32.530 --> 00:01:53.979 Mira Brancu: So let me introduce him. Rob Leone is a professor of human resource development at Idaho State University, and the founder of Black River performance management. With over 20 years of experience and a Phd. In training and performance improvement, he specializes in creating human-centric systems that drive organizational growth and success
00:01:54.300 --> 00:02:10.050 Mira Brancu: rob leverages his deep understanding of human behavior and workplace psychology to simplify leadership, complexities, equipping clients with science backed strategies to enhance organizational culture and strengthen teams so great to have you on the show. Rob.
00:02:10.340 --> 00:02:12.510 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Terrific thanks for having me. Mira.
00:02:12.650 --> 00:02:18.937 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. And you go by Rob Leone. But you know it's clearly Professor Rob.
00:02:19.330 --> 00:02:27.310 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, yeah, that anything works right? I'm I'm fine. I I roll with it. So thank you.
00:02:27.310 --> 00:02:29.218 Mira Brancu: All right, all right. Well,
00:02:30.200 --> 00:02:38.222 Mira Brancu: let's start with this, because before we got on the show, he and I were starting to sort of like. Just talk through this very kind of
00:02:38.640 --> 00:02:47.360 Mira Brancu: seemingly simple but highly complex construct of fit culture fit. So let's start there. Why is this
00:02:47.600 --> 00:02:57.670 Mira Brancu: such a complicated thing to talk about when it comes to hiring and people fitting into a workplace culture. What makes it so complicated.
00:02:58.820 --> 00:03:05.020 Rob | blackriverpm.com: So maybe I'll back up and start with. You know, the workplace is not very different than our personal life.
00:03:05.160 --> 00:03:25.169 Rob | blackriverpm.com: We have similar challenges and issues and dynamics. In fact, we were talking about this this weekend, that in some instances, when you hire someone, it's kind of like dating someone, or at least going through the interviewing process. Right? So maybe we should take some cues from our personal life and and recognize that fit is an important factor, as it relates to us, building connections with friends.
00:03:25.470 --> 00:03:55.199 Rob | blackriverpm.com: improving relationships with colleagues moving into more intimate personal space, navigating the space to find a significant other things like that right? And and some of us learn at a different pace over time what works well and what doesn't, and we all have our ups and downs. And so I think our personal life is a great lab experiment for what we might consider to do in the workplace. And and fit is central to that right? So
00:03:55.340 --> 00:04:02.630 Rob | blackriverpm.com: bit is a complex concept that we try to wrap our hands around.
00:04:03.920 --> 00:04:12.700 Rob | blackriverpm.com: But everyone has a different approach. Everyone has different definitions. And so it makes it really challenging for us to operationalize this concept.
00:04:12.850 --> 00:04:14.220 Rob | blackriverpm.com: let alone
00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:43.559 Rob | blackriverpm.com: how are we basing our opinions on fit? Are they based on our own beliefs about ourselves and leveraging our bias, as it relates to whether we're screening candidates or making decisions of who might be best for this certain task on this job that's already in the organization. So fit is really tricky, and I'll go on to another piece that I often talk about when we begin client engagements and begin most podcast discussions is that language is
00:04:43.930 --> 00:05:05.410 Rob | blackriverpm.com: essential when it comes down to organizational culture, and then eventually into that fit conversation. Right. So when you say one thing, I may or may not be on the same page with you as it relates to any concept of a definition. Yeah, motivation motivation might mean something very different from you than it does to me.
00:05:05.410 --> 00:05:32.000 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And and these are both kind of our worlds of work right? So now multiply that by 20 people on our team. And then we start having these conversations about how we're going to get things done and motivate people or things like that. And so it's easy to see how we don't land with some of our conversations and decisions. And I think it's important for us to really address that as we get into this fit conversation. Because what is it that we're looking for in this position?
00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:58.270 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Do we even have the language to identify what this position is demanding calling for right. So we get in the business of benchmarking positions. So we can look at what what is necessary for whomever comes into this position to be successful. But but you have to have a view outside of that to understand that. What are we talking about here? Are we talking about decision making, talking about power structures we're talking about, you know, autonomy, competition.
00:05:58.390 --> 00:06:00.500 Rob | blackriverpm.com: authority, all these different things.
00:06:00.690 --> 00:06:03.310 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And then, as we get into that, there's all these different
00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:21.129 Rob | blackriverpm.com: perspectives that relate to all those different constructs. So that's what makes this really muddy and fun. And it's a lot of fun when you partner with someone to go through these things and and to start to try to figure out how we're going to improve this next higher on this next round, because the last couple just didn't work out very well.
00:06:21.940 --> 00:06:49.169 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I appreciate that. You know, you and I come at this in kind of different but complementary ways. You're, you know, thinking a lot like straight up front in the very early stages, beginning, screening, hiring. How are we thinking about defining? Who's a fit? What is our culture? How do we? How do we explain that I come at it? Usually from the experience of
00:06:49.680 --> 00:07:07.210 Mira Brancu: people reaching out to me while they're already embedded in the midst of something that has fallen apart usually, or we're like, we're not gelling. We're not cohesive. Why is that? What's happening? Can you help us with usually team development and leadership development and
00:07:08.380 --> 00:07:16.283 Mira Brancu: you know, I I think about one of the things that I I think about is this recent
00:07:17.610 --> 00:07:27.390 Mira Brancu: client that I had where they tried everything with this team development, and they were really progressing. But it was arduous. It was arduous, right
00:07:27.520 --> 00:07:32.009 Mira Brancu: and eventually what happened is one of the team members.
00:07:32.808 --> 00:07:48.202 Mira Brancu: Stepped down. Went to a different role, and they hired or promoted another person. And all of a sudden. They're like, oh, oh, my goodness, everything's working! How is this possible, you know? And I started thinking, you know what?
00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:54.904 Mira Brancu: there! There's a lot to be said about chemistry. You know, there's there's just a lot to be said about
00:07:55.390 --> 00:08:02.709 Mira Brancu: something intangible that you know. You can work really hard at making a team work with all of the right
00:08:03.487 --> 00:08:07.330 Mira Brancu: frameworks and skills and competencies and all those things.
00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:18.510 Mira Brancu: And sometimes you might realize that even though that works. It might have been the chemistry, the fit all along in the very early early stages, like.
00:08:18.510 --> 00:08:37.949 Mira Brancu: you know, that person deciding this is a fit for me and the team deciding this is a good fit for us, so I would love to hear more about this sort of early stages hiring screening process. What do you think about? What is that language that you start sort of entering in into with your clients?
00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:43.699 Rob | blackriverpm.com: So if I could take a moment to tell you how I landed where I am, right here I was
00:08:43.809 --> 00:09:04.609 Rob | blackriverpm.com: formally more in the later stage like you're talking about. And what I, what I realized is that we can build some great systems intervention solutions. But but if the system's not ready to integrate that if the people can't integrate that into process and practice, it's not going to go anywhere right? And so
00:09:05.380 --> 00:09:28.999 Rob | blackriverpm.com: I believe in stewarding people's funds in the sense of. Let's make these investments, not expenses. And so it's it's a lot more difficult to turn that ship later in the game to your point, because you had to wait for someone to leave right as opposed to early on. And so what we're trying to do is trying to. We often come in at that mid to late frame that you're talking about.
00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:54.511 Rob | blackriverpm.com: But but once we start to do that, we say, how do we future proof? This right? I often talk about. We're one bad hire away from a problem again. And it's that culture piece that becomes that grease to those gears right that smooths things out, because when you have culture on your side as a part of a team, you could have easier time with more difficult conversations and
00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:22.100 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and holding people accountable and creating boundaries. Right? These, all these different things we're talking about as solutions. We need to back up and look at what feeds into those. And so, if we know these are our goals, the endpoints where we want to be, how do we figure out how to prioritize this on the front end. So what that means is that we're now looking at different things. We're looking at, not just capabilities and skills. But we're also looking at the
00:10:22.310 --> 00:10:26.390 Rob | blackriverpm.com: personality of the individual that is outside of that
00:10:27.670 --> 00:10:34.270 Rob | blackriverpm.com: trade or craft skill. But looking at the relationship between their
00:10:34.370 --> 00:10:52.549 Rob | blackriverpm.com: you know, the skill of the soft skills hearts. The more the more important skills, the sophisticated skills, right? The ones that we we challenge, we have challenges building in people. How do we identify who those people are that are going to start from this vantage point of how do we take a person in year one to make them
00:10:52.890 --> 00:10:55.030 Rob | blackriverpm.com: efficient as a second year person.
00:10:55.470 --> 00:10:59.070 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And and it's lining up these right pieces to figure out.
00:10:59.180 --> 00:11:02.219 Rob | blackriverpm.com: what does this once again? What does this position call for.
00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:10.040 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And how do we screen through this? So that we are doing this in a way that's very purposeful
00:11:10.540 --> 00:11:11.780 Rob | blackriverpm.com: specific.
00:11:12.350 --> 00:11:31.200 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and then also not lending us to any sort of bias or discrimination at the same time, because that's 1 of my worries is the the consequence of this. This fit conversation is is in some instances discrimination occurring in some environments. And we want to make sure we're very careful with that.
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:44.459 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I was just going to ask about that, because that's the immediate thought that comes to mind when I think like how you define fit. How you help others define fit is, how do you avoid
00:11:44.903 --> 00:12:08.589 Mira Brancu: our natural biases, or, you know, discriminatory practices as a result of our natural biases to keep hiring people who are like us, who talk like us, who speak like us, who sound like us. It's so comfortable, you know, and yet it might not be the right fit for what you need. How how do you go about? Sort of minimizing the impact of our human biases?
00:12:09.620 --> 00:12:26.389 Rob | blackriverpm.com: So that's tough. If you haven't been doing the development work with the organization right? Because you're beginning to shift their perspective on. On looking at these things instead of what it was that they were looking at before. So if we've been doing the development work, it's really easy, because now they value it. They know where to look.
00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:32.699 Rob | blackriverpm.com: but I think it's it breaks down to asking a lot of questions, determining what people are looking for.
00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:37.259 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and then letting that team talk about what those things are.
00:12:37.370 --> 00:13:07.249 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and being the facilitator of that conversation, so that we thread out the pieces that they're truly looking at. Because, as I started, language is our biggest limiting factor in many instances here. And so people aren't even necessarily able to articulate what it is they're truly looking for in this position, as it relates to expertise. As it relates to one task, let's say so. When we listen to them, we're able to thread out those things to say. Oh, look, you're talking about authority, or you're talking about competition here.
00:13:07.490 --> 00:13:21.299 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Okay, let's let's talk about that a little bit more. Is this what you're meaning? And they're like, yeah, yeah. So now we have some actual targets that we can look at to to start building what we're gonna integrate into our criteria as we start to hire for this.
00:13:21.560 --> 00:13:42.500 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I would love to hear an example of a sort of client journey from where they started with when they asked for something, and how you, you know, sort of got them to land, and where they landed at the end of this sort of clarification engagement with you. We are reaching an ad break so.
00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:42.910 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Yeah.
00:13:42.910 --> 00:13:45.239 Mira Brancu: I'm going to leave people hanging for that.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:14:06.680 Mira Brancu: You are listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Professor Rob Leone. We air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern. If you're listening right now at live at this time, you can find us live streaming on Linkedin, Youtube and several other locations@talkradio.nyc. And you can ask us questions in real time. We'll answer back.
00:14:06.830 --> 00:14:10.160 Mira Brancu: Otherwise we'll be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:15:52.890 --> 00:15:59.070 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Rob Leon.
00:15:59.850 --> 00:16:20.140 Mira Brancu: We've been talking about culture fit, and this sort of like realization that we don't always agree on the definition of what is fit, and how to even define it enough to find the right people that are a true fit for what we're looking for. So I would love to hear
00:16:21.037 --> 00:16:35.360 Mira Brancu: kind of a client journey like an example of how a client came to you with maybe a more nebulous, you know idea of what they wanted
00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:45.420 Mira Brancu: and what you learned and what they learned over the time that you work with them to clarify what they were looking for, and how they got there.
00:16:46.270 --> 00:16:50.819 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Wonderful. Okay? So a couple of thoughts go through my mind as it relates to this.
00:16:51.390 --> 00:16:58.769 Rob | blackriverpm.com: I had this experience as leading a CEO retreat in the mountains in in Central Idaho a couple of years ago.
00:16:58.920 --> 00:17:06.240 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and we were talking about this exact thing, and I happen to have written a blog post. And it's on our website
00:17:06.410 --> 00:17:12.269 Rob | blackriverpm.com: that I don't remember the exact title. But if you do, you remember the Sears wish book?
00:17:13.010 --> 00:17:15.690 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Did you grow up with them. Okay, okay.
00:17:15.690 --> 00:17:43.380 Rob | blackriverpm.com: So a little bit of imagery for us that remember that. Right? So if you were like me when that thing showed up in November. You grabbed the magic marker and you just started circling the toys the stuff you wanted with with no attention to the cost. I'm just going to get this, and I want this. And then it was up to my parents to deal with it. Right, I said, and too many of us are structuring positions and organizations like the Sears wish book.
00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:52.780 Rob | blackriverpm.com: What do I mean by that? So we see this when organizations are starting to whether it's due to retirement or financial constraints. They start to collapse positions right?
00:17:53.320 --> 00:17:56.557 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And and there's certain positions and certain
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:11.240 Rob | blackriverpm.com: task profiles that should never be collapsed because they violate some of the rules around some of the personality, dimensions and things like that. And so I was talking about this very thing. And this woman, said
00:18:11.450 --> 00:18:19.800 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Rob. That explains why we've had 3 people go through the exact same position in the last 18 months.
00:18:20.060 --> 00:18:20.970 Rob | blackriverpm.com: because.
00:18:20.970 --> 00:18:21.310 Mira Brancu: So.
00:18:21.310 --> 00:18:40.050 Rob | blackriverpm.com: We were building positions according to what we wished or wanted, especially when we're trying to cut back right? We're trying to make sure all functions are covered. But unfortunately, that's violating a lot of people's tendencies. Right? And when I talk about tendencies and personality, I'm not saying that they're necessarily 100% rigid and fixed because
00:18:40.060 --> 00:19:05.479 Rob | blackriverpm.com: we know there's growth opportunities. And then there's also skill development that can supplement. So I'm super introvert. And I just have to develop the skills to be outgoing and interactive with people to be successful in my job. And and so all of us can do this right. So another piece. Another quick story, as it relates to this, is that we were looking at data as it relates to culture work in terms of marketing, and
00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:27.430 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and the conversation was around retention. And I, said, Rob, retention is such an important factor. That's a great way for you to demonstrate your value to the organization, I said, well, I'm going to tell you that retention dips when I start to become involved. And this is why? Because what we're doing with the organization. It's not a great way to sell myself, that's for sure.
00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:31.750 Rob | blackriverpm.com: When we start getting people doing the right things, working together.
00:19:32.110 --> 00:19:36.419 Rob | blackriverpm.com: their humanity grows, their connection enhances between them
00:19:36.560 --> 00:19:42.600 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and those that don't fit start to exit the organization naturally. And so that relates to
00:19:43.030 --> 00:19:48.573 Rob | blackriverpm.com: actually a couple of different organizations that we had this in where we started the process.
00:19:49.620 --> 00:19:53.089 Rob | blackriverpm.com: you know, they're trying to do their best.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:54.859 Rob | blackriverpm.com: It's the best they know.
00:19:55.080 --> 00:20:05.889 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and they love their organization, and they really love their people they're working with. They're trying to do their best. But to all of us like, if it's I couldn't tell someone how to teach A. K to
00:20:06.040 --> 00:20:22.560 Rob | blackriverpm.com: K to 5 classroom. It's not my background. So I need someone to come in and tell me this is the same thing for their organization. They're a leader. They're great at their craft, but they need the assistance. So what we did was we started to look at these these fit factors right? What are the things that we need
00:20:22.800 --> 00:20:33.883 Rob | blackriverpm.com: for this person to be successful in this role? And and how do we go about teasing those things out, and and we can do them in a variety of different ways.
00:20:34.690 --> 00:20:55.479 Rob | blackriverpm.com: the easiest way is to integrate some of the the behavioral assessments and personality assessments as as a data point for us to start to see how these things present themselves, because the big challenge has historically been for this client for the person I just got off the phone with before we started here. Is that, how do you? You know everyone's out there to sell themselves?
00:20:55.780 --> 00:21:02.509 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And of course, we're typically giving jobs to the more charismatic people which happen to be
00:21:02.840 --> 00:21:25.199 Rob | blackriverpm.com: likely extroverts, even though the jobs intended for an introvert. And when I say intended, for, like I said once again, we could profile positions. And and we see this in disciplines at higher education. How certain people are drawn, based off of their behavioral aspects and personality to do this. So what we started to do is we started to build what this position looks like.
00:21:26.030 --> 00:21:30.530 Rob | blackriverpm.com: We administer tools. Throughout the process of the screening
00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:59.129 Rob | blackriverpm.com: we debrief after those things are are done, I actually share the reports redacted, as it relates to the clients impressions during the multiple stages of screening to try to tease out some things and and hear what they're saying. And then it's almost like a ta-da. Let me give you the names of the people you looked at. And and it's really powerful moment because we we operate a lot off of our hunches
00:21:59.410 --> 00:22:06.659 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and that gut, and it's not always right. But it's a good tool, especially the the kind of more
00:22:06.860 --> 00:22:08.830 Rob | blackriverpm.com: more life experiences we have.
00:22:09.060 --> 00:22:16.199 Rob | blackriverpm.com: You know, it becomes more reliable. And and so when we look at what our impressions are, our reactions are
00:22:16.450 --> 00:22:34.929 Rob | blackriverpm.com: against actual fit factors, and where people are landing on those, and they're always coupled, because there's always the conversation about. Maybe they're super modest and they're not divulging as much information. And we work through all this we want. We want to find the best fit possible for this organization. But what it ends up doing is
00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:48.830 Rob | blackriverpm.com: it gets us to this point when we launch on day one with onboarding. We're already a step in the direction where we want to be. Right? So we we've identified to this
00:22:48.900 --> 00:23:09.910 Rob | blackriverpm.com: potential into this candidate potential hire that we're committed to these practices. And this is a part of our organization. And some people self select out and say, Look, I'm not going to go on with this, because I'm not interested in sharing this information about myself. And and that's that's an that's that's a fit test in and of itself, right? And so
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:25.770 Rob | blackriverpm.com: I like to do this on the front end. Not everyone wants to do this on the front end. They try to do it after the fact. But whatever we always land on, look, you're investing in culture work and fit for your organization in a variety of different manners.
00:23:26.370 --> 00:23:38.370 Rob | blackriverpm.com: we need to be abundantly clear on the candidate side. Once you start doing these interviews, that this is a part of who we are, this is a part of our identity. This is a part of our practice.
00:23:38.500 --> 00:23:49.069 Rob | blackriverpm.com: We allocate resources to do these things, and we work together. And and that way when someone comes in, even if you don't screen them this way.
00:23:49.170 --> 00:24:07.839 Rob | blackriverpm.com: They know what's expected of them. At least. There, there's you've already had this conversation, so that if, if, for whatever reason they say, look, I don't want to be a part of this practice. But I'm happy to work here. It gives the leader an opportunity to have some real direct conversations about what this is and why it's important for them
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:24.890 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and and for some people it's time to exit already for other people. It's oh, I didn't quite understand it. And for other people they make it work without being a part of it. So because each organization is unique, and I would never say that this is the only way to do it. There's a variety of ways to do this.
00:24:25.610 --> 00:24:28.280 Mira Brancu: Yeah, okay. So there's a lot of things coming up.
00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:28.740 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Man.
00:24:28.740 --> 00:24:38.109 Mira Brancu: as you're talking. So number one, I think that is a way to try to de-bias the initial.
00:24:38.961 --> 00:24:43.239 Mira Brancu: You know, hiring process. Because it's
00:24:44.540 --> 00:25:01.279 Mira Brancu: it's data informed. It's thoughtful. It's intentional. It it looks at multiple data points and criteria as opposed to. For example, just the interview we already know, interviews are highly biased. I, personally
00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:19.710 Mira Brancu: have hired several people where I was not impressed by their interview, and I was really nervous, but they were amazing for the position. And so, you know, interviews don't tell all, and adding these additional mechanisms and data points help.
00:25:21.130 --> 00:25:26.910 Mira Brancu: The the other is that it?
00:25:28.490 --> 00:25:31.080 Mira Brancu: I really appreciate how you
00:25:31.270 --> 00:25:49.259 Mira Brancu: shared that. Some position descriptions I love how you said it violate. How did you say violate people's tendencies? The norms of how people function right? People have their their sort of natural style and tendencies, and what they lean into.
00:25:49.260 --> 00:26:04.119 Mira Brancu: And yes, some people want to be challenged in a new way, and want to develop those things in a position that requires something different of their personal preferences and styles. Other people really do not want to. And it's going to be highly uncomfortable.
00:26:05.180 --> 00:26:19.910 Mira Brancu: And you gave one example, which is like the introversion extroversion, you know, scale and experiences. And there are other things like that. I have been. Again, I'm going to just take myself as an example, because I think people will relate to this.
00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:48.659 Mira Brancu: I have been the same person in multiple different roles, and been more successful in some situations and context than others. And when I think back, what are those situations and context that made me more successful, it just. It wasn't because all of a sudden I drastically changed who I was. It was because the the role and context called for my strengths, and I was a great fit for those things, and I leaned in versus
00:26:48.910 --> 00:26:57.820 Mira Brancu: they called for something else, and it was such a friction that either I had to address myself, or I had to just say, this isn't right for me
00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.330 Mira Brancu: right.
00:26:59.780 --> 00:27:07.439 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Absolutely I I've been there. I've been on that, you know. I've been that wish book job where I've
00:27:07.580 --> 00:27:18.469 Rob | blackriverpm.com: thrived in one half of the job. The other half they sucked right, and and it was before I learned any of this stuff. This was early in my career, but
00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:23.119 Rob | blackriverpm.com: but if I use myself as an example, just as you did or others.
00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:29.480 Rob | blackriverpm.com: We've all like, we're all new to every so many things. We, you know, we have our expertise. We have our craft.
00:27:30.170 --> 00:27:56.149 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Lots of other things in life are, you know, curveballs thrown at us that we're just trying not to get hit by it right? So I really appreciate that. That's very true, and that's what we see. I remember we had a I saw a posting once that was for, and this was an organization that was trying to consolidate some of its employees. And they they needed a financial manager that would also serve as Pr. So you have someone that's that's, you know, has a real tendency to be
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:05.813 Rob | blackriverpm.com: very data, oriented, slower, paced in terms of or deliberate pace in terms of of how they process and move
00:28:06.280 --> 00:28:27.289 Rob | blackriverpm.com: much more likely to be introverted as a match. And then you have this, like Pr Spokesperson, for the organization, that that is the total opposite end of that faster pace, higher energy, glowing demeanor. Right? And so it just it. It doesn't mean they don't exist. There's unicorns out there right, but
00:28:27.320 --> 00:28:44.150 Rob | blackriverpm.com: we can help ourselves save time and money, because we know that the losses are substantial when we make up a poor hire, and and it, and even outside of the cost it wears on the team to go through this because they're either carrying the the burden because that position is vacant
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:55.692 Rob | blackriverpm.com: or you're disrupting their their schedule because you're like, look, we're going to enter. Interview another 5 candidates this week. So re up your calendar right? So I I really do think
00:28:56.580 --> 00:29:25.789 Rob | blackriverpm.com: you know, we owe to ourselves to really take the time to think about these things. Look, it's going to cost us one way or the other right? And I would rather have organizations investing in kind of raising the humanity and the human spirit of the team having people leave work at the end of the day, feeling energetic, and, you know, as full of energy as they could after a whole day, so that they could go on with their life outside of that, and have fun, and and, you know, live. That's what we want them to do.
00:29:26.110 --> 00:29:55.243 Mira Brancu: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Now. You dropped a breadcrumb that I want to follow. I'm I'm going to drop a second breadcrumb, but we're reaching an ad break. So we'll after we get back from the ad break we'll talk about it. You started saying like, so. So that's the sort of front end over time. If and when people realize they're not a great fit, it actually affects retention. And I would love to sort of continue that conversation about
00:29:56.010 --> 00:30:03.670 Mira Brancu: How do you? Not just hire for fit upfront, but think more globally
00:30:03.690 --> 00:30:08.899 Mira Brancu: around the sort of the culture of who is a high performer.
00:30:08.910 --> 00:30:21.079 Mira Brancu: and what happens with retention of lower performers, or perhaps performers that are just not a great fit, or, you know, create friction, and that kind of thing. So I would love to just sort of
00:30:21.080 --> 00:30:40.060 Mira Brancu: follow that breadcrumb a little bit more. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Professor Rob Leone. We air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. Eastern, and you can find us at Linkedin, Youtube and several other locations@talkradio.nyc. We'll be right back with our guest in just a moment.
00:32:11.540 --> 00:32:17.750 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Professor Rob Leone.
00:32:19.040 --> 00:32:23.090 Mira Brancu: So we've talked about kind of the upfront ways
00:32:23.270 --> 00:32:33.819 Mira Brancu: to start being more clear, more intentional, more thoughtful about creating a great fit for the organization and for the person who's being hired
00:32:34.210 --> 00:32:43.320 Mira Brancu: that already starts setting them up for success, which everybody wants to be set up for success. And every organization wants to set up their new hires for success. So
00:32:43.450 --> 00:32:51.839 Mira Brancu: obviously, that's really really important. As the person is transitioning in to the organization.
00:32:52.293 --> 00:33:02.969 Mira Brancu: Now, this is a multi-part question. We can take it anywhere, I'm thinking through, like as they're transitioning in. How do we make sure that they get the right support that they're
00:33:03.320 --> 00:33:17.589 Mira Brancu: personally acclimating? But the team is embracing what is maybe perhaps a new style, right? A complementary, but not the same style. And then how do we
00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:23.380 Mira Brancu: assess for ongoing fit, or perhaps misfit
00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:26.400 Mira Brancu: over time. And what do you? What do you do with that.
00:33:28.540 --> 00:33:35.419 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Wow! We should have started. I don't know. We we have so many. There's so many different pieces that go through my mind. Oh, my goodness.
00:33:35.870 --> 00:33:55.389 Rob | blackriverpm.com: okay, so where to begin? I want to begin at the beginning. And and so you mentioned like organizations want to get their people up going. Well, people want to do the job well, and I truly believe this is one of my general beliefs, and I think it's it's healthy to to. Actually.
00:33:55.640 --> 00:34:01.270 Rob | blackriverpm.com: you know, adopt this framework is that everyone is trying to do their best. Day one.
00:34:02.120 --> 00:34:04.379 Rob | blackriverpm.com: They are motivated.
00:34:04.620 --> 00:34:18.560 Rob | blackriverpm.com: you know, within a reason like there's always more. There's an yeah. But to all of this, but like people are trying to do their best, they're trying to feel good about the quality of work they do for themselves their own esteem needs.
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:31.900 Rob | blackriverpm.com: They're trying to do do good work so that their friends or family will know that they're doing good work like in in terms of you know, I I'm a valuable addition to this organization or this community or something.
00:34:32.130 --> 00:34:53.199 Rob | blackriverpm.com: but they're also they also want to do well, because someone just hired them and went out, and, you know, took a chance with them. So I think it's really important for us to acknowledge, like the intention behind people's work, and things change over time. No doubt we could talk about that for sure, but people want to do the best job.
00:34:53.400 --> 00:35:05.930 Rob | blackriverpm.com: However, they just don't necessarily know how to. So just because the intention is there, just as you mentioned, the organization's intention for them to be set up well, to do well doesn't mean they know where to begin.
00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:11.229 Rob | blackriverpm.com: So it once again. It's important to to really handle these things
00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:15.390 Rob | blackriverpm.com: kind of in isolation to determine where we are?
00:35:16.165 --> 00:35:16.800 Rob | blackriverpm.com: So
00:35:17.370 --> 00:35:25.919 Rob | blackriverpm.com: we once we determine that. So how are we going to integrate them? Where do you want to go next, like you have so many questions, that wh. What's the next piece of this that you want to move into.
00:35:26.060 --> 00:35:30.090 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's look at the team for a moment.
00:35:30.665 --> 00:35:34.040 Mira Brancu: Okay, because an individual was hired.
00:35:34.170 --> 00:35:37.399 Mira Brancu: But there's a team element here to their success too.
00:35:37.870 --> 00:35:51.820 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Yeah. So the 1st thing I go to is, what is the quality of the onboarding experience look like. And this is something consistently. I know there's organizations doing this very well, but I see a lot of organizations, you know, kind of
00:35:53.020 --> 00:35:57.429 Rob | blackriverpm.com: not doing this well, like Hr. Does their thing in terms of benefits.
00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:22.240 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Eap program offering stuff like that. And a lot of this stuff on the front end day. One is not really important to the person right? Like they need to know what the process is. But they're not necessarily using these these services, these handbooks. Day. One things like that. They're more concerned about social needs. In many instances. Am I going to fit in? Am I going to integrate? Are people going to like me right things like that as well as
00:36:22.240 --> 00:36:31.589 Rob | blackriverpm.com: am I going to understand how to do this job that they're taking a chance with me on? So there's a lot going on on the individual. So I think it's really important that we spend time
00:36:32.240 --> 00:36:37.620 Rob | blackriverpm.com: looking at. How are we integrating them into the social fabric of the organization?
00:36:37.990 --> 00:37:02.069 Rob | blackriverpm.com: We're not just handing them a set of keys and say, Hey, good luck! I know you got this right, and so there's a level of care that we provide in all sorts of other areas of our life that I think we deserve in the organization to help those people come in, feel comfortable, know where to find answers things like that. And so really setting them up for success. And the better we do this sooner
00:37:02.630 --> 00:37:21.339 Rob | blackriverpm.com: the quicker they're going to move through that learning curve of, you know, high enthusiasm, maybe not as competent as they need to be. And then eventually, we know that enthusiasm diminishes, and then they start to second. Guess. Wait! Should I have stayed in that last job that that one was working out pretty well compared to this? I feel like I'm not
00:37:21.500 --> 00:37:25.382 Rob | blackriverpm.com: knowing what I'm doing. So that's a part of it. So you also mentioned
00:37:25.780 --> 00:37:34.929 Rob | blackriverpm.com: So what do we do with those low performance versus high performance? And here's another point where I think we need to take a hard look. It's kind of like a fork in the road.
00:37:35.350 --> 00:37:59.279 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Is this person a legit, low performer? Or is there something that our systems contributing to that right? So, as you mentioned, one of the things we do is we build models, frameworks, and systems in our organ, our business, Black River, to help people navigate this stuff. Because how else do you know how to figure this stuff out? Right? You know we lead, we behave, we teach
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:05.720 Rob | blackriverpm.com: in accordance to what we've experienced in our life, good and bad, and we we carry those habits forward right? So
00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:11.210 Rob | blackriverpm.com: so I think one of the 1st things here is, we need to truly determine of these low performers
00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:18.760 Rob | blackriverpm.com: how many of them are truly low performers, based on their own individual needs and issues versus
00:38:19.100 --> 00:38:22.890 Rob | blackriverpm.com: the organization's provisions of support or the lack thereof.
00:38:23.210 --> 00:38:35.910 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Right? So it's easy, for I see this all the time we spend a lot of time in the performance area. It's class and teaching right now also. And we see, look, people are are labeled as lazy or entitled, or and those are those are
00:38:36.140 --> 00:38:43.790 Rob | blackriverpm.com: they. They do that for a couple of different reasons. One. They they don't really know how to label what's really going on. So it's the language that's available to them.
00:38:44.170 --> 00:38:50.441 Rob | blackriverpm.com: But they also don't know what's getting in the way of why, that person's, you know, not performing
00:38:51.617 --> 00:38:56.189 Rob | blackriverpm.com: so we have to figure out, are we as leaders?
00:38:56.350 --> 00:38:58.489 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Bottlenecking. This in some way
00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:08.989 Rob | blackriverpm.com: is, you know, sometimes I see in organizations the Good Old Boys club right like that's a bottleneck for advancement, for people that don't fit, that
00:39:09.090 --> 00:39:20.039 Rob | blackriverpm.com: that ideology and and I identity right? And and so we need to, you know, examine these things and determine. Are we keeping people? Are we? Are we
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:48.399 Rob | blackriverpm.com: artificially bottlenecking people's ability to be successful in this program because maybe they're just not into sports. And that's part of our insight. Talk is the leadership team. And then they just no longer fit. Right? So I think right. There we have to really do a good job. Look, is this a reflection of culture fit? Is this a reflection of data and information? Are we providing them sufficient information to their job correctly, or do have we provided them the tools to do the job correctly?
00:39:48.490 --> 00:39:56.959 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And then the last item in that analysis is, are we holding them accountable? Are we providing them frequent enough feedback
00:39:57.160 --> 00:40:00.399 Rob | blackriverpm.com: with accountability measures integrated into it
00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:17.280 Rob | blackriverpm.com: so that they truly can rise and change, or they eventually realize that they're no longer a fit or they're not where they need to be. And then they need to start exploring alternatives. They start to exit the organization on their own accord, instead of
00:40:17.650 --> 00:40:19.999 Rob | blackriverpm.com: instead of hanging in there. Because
00:40:20.180 --> 00:40:33.099 Rob | blackriverpm.com: let's be honest, like people hang around in organizations way too long, because the person that's supposed to be holding them accountable isn't having that difficult conversation with them. Yeah. And that's a skill that we have to develop
00:40:33.470 --> 00:40:35.229 Rob | blackriverpm.com: in order to
00:40:36.140 --> 00:41:05.369 Rob | blackriverpm.com: to to better service our high performers. They deserve it right? We don't. We don't want to be held hostage by the low performers in in any situation, especially when we as leaders, and I always like that concept of we get paid the big bucks, regardless of whether or not that is big bucks or not. But to make the difficult decisions right? That buck stops here accountability framework. And that is what I see as the biggest factor in terms of continuing organizational development
00:41:06.062 --> 00:41:11.370 Rob | blackriverpm.com: goal pursuit for the organization strategy initiatives, all those things as
00:41:11.410 --> 00:41:29.960 Rob | blackriverpm.com: we need to correct the boat as it steers off. And that might be a difficult conversation this week with Fred, and next week it's someone else. But how do we integrate this into practice? One of the things we talk about is frequent one on ones with drips of feedback. Every agenda in the one-on-one system has a feedback
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:42.280 Rob | blackriverpm.com: space in it. For let's just say, Mira, you and I are doing this. And I let's say I'm your supervisor. You. Every time we meet you have dedicated time to give me feedback in terms of both what you need
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:51.230 Rob | blackriverpm.com: as well as how I'm leading. But also I give you the feedback, too, of where I need those corrections. And if we're doing these at frequent intervals.
00:41:51.810 --> 00:41:59.140 Rob | blackriverpm.com: They're small, easy changes that people don't get upset about. But if we leave it to the end of the year at the annual evaluation time.
00:41:59.260 --> 00:42:20.119 Rob | blackriverpm.com: We're not helping ourselves at all with that. And and actually, we're doing a real disservice to the other person, because I believe I bet you and me both believe that we want to do the best job possible, and I want to receive the feedback or correction or assistance. If I'm not doing what they expected me to do.
00:42:20.270 --> 00:42:32.380 Rob | blackriverpm.com: It goes back to remember office space, the TV, the movie, you know. He never knew he was fired. No one ever told him he was fired. They just kept relocating him, and somehow he still got a paycheck right? So I don't know. Does that help.
00:42:32.700 --> 00:42:43.789 Mira Brancu: It does I? It's made me think of of 2 things. You know, the people that I work with a lot are high performers and organizational misfits, usually in the same person.
00:42:43.790 --> 00:42:44.769 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:44.770 --> 00:42:45.475 Mira Brancu: And
00:42:46.962 --> 00:42:55.003 Mira Brancu: obviously a reflection of me. And so you know, one of the the things that
00:42:56.200 --> 00:43:02.619 Mira Brancu: I'd love to sort of talk through with you after we get back from the next break is
00:43:03.715 --> 00:43:29.650 Mira Brancu: the the feedback back and forth on a routine basis is critical. We often think with high performers. We just need to praise them for all the amazing things that they do when, in fact, they're desperate for being challenged and being pushed to be even better. And they're constantly wondering, is this the right place for me? If I'm not being challenged, you know, if I'm not sort of able to move into
00:43:30.357 --> 00:43:46.549 Mira Brancu: you know more interesting, challenging you know, spaces. And so I would love to sort of like talk with you about from your perspective, the way that you work with leaders who set up
00:43:46.760 --> 00:44:13.639 Mira Brancu: the right environment to create the right amount of challenge. Work with invite in high performers organizational misfits, you know. To to find the right space. I have many questions about this. But let me put it out there. We'll be right back in just a moment, and you're listening to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira branco and our guest today. Rob Leon.
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:56.500 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Rob Leone
00:45:56.780 --> 00:46:23.040 Mira Brancu: and where we left off. I started just thinking about, you know, as you're talking about having these good routine small bits of feedback sessions to continue staying aligned and on track helping high performers. I started thinking about the people that I work with, you know, mostly high performers, organizational misfits, and kind of the the challenges that they find
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:35.150 Mira Brancu: when they're starting to wonder. Is this the right place for me? Is this the right fit for me? And they're trying so hard to make it work or to feel really good about their work.
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:58.650 Mira Brancu: You're coming at it from the perspective of like, how do we create the right structures, the processes, so that you're not necessarily pointing fingers at individuals. You're you're trying to improve the actual processes and structures to help people thrive. I'm curious just what are your thoughts on that, and how you go about assessing fit versus adjustments.
00:46:59.300 --> 00:47:04.739 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Sure. So let's let's take the the term high performer out of this, and let's just look at people in general.
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:13.289 Rob | blackriverpm.com: They want to have fun. That's not a word we use often as we talk about scope of work.
00:47:13.370 --> 00:47:30.130 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And I think fun is a really important factor here, as whether low performers or high performers, but especially high performers, because it becomes mundane. If you're not getting those pieces that continue to challenge you, drive, you
00:47:30.130 --> 00:47:58.540 Rob | blackriverpm.com: push you right. And and it's you know whether or not you consider it fun. Everyone gets to determine that. But you know I want to enjoy my job, and at the end of the day feel good when I go home, and if if the person I'm looking to to help, you know, remove the barriers isn't removing the barriers, or or helping me cultivate this and stoke my fuel. Then it's not going to be fun. It's going to become mundane, and I'll become complacent. And so what is the mechanism to do this? Right? Well, one thing we have to do
00:47:58.540 --> 00:48:01.799 Rob | blackriverpm.com: is make sure. Once again, coming back to language, I need a voice.
00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:05.700 Rob | blackriverpm.com: I need to be able to articulate what what I need
00:48:05.910 --> 00:48:23.749 Rob | blackriverpm.com: to my supervisor, so that one on one is just as important for the supervisor to provide that feedback as it is for me to have an opportunity to have their undivided attention to share with them what I need. And it's like a dance. One leads, one follows right? And so I think that's really important. One of my favorite
00:48:24.910 --> 00:48:26.200 Rob | blackriverpm.com: frameworks
00:48:26.740 --> 00:48:33.200 Rob | blackriverpm.com: from the sixties is called challenge and support. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of it. Sanford
00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:36.029 Rob | blackriverpm.com: wrote about it, and
00:48:36.580 --> 00:48:45.350 Rob | blackriverpm.com: if you just take it as that simple concept of challenge and support. I talk about it as the rubber band wrap around your fingers, you pull it too hard, you challenge it too hard, it breaks.
00:48:45.780 --> 00:49:02.460 Rob | blackriverpm.com: you go too loose. It flops, and it's not helpful. And that's what these high performers really need. They need you to find them resources when they have something going, and they just need to keep it going and build it up, build it up, build it up. They also need you to politically clear the way at times.
00:49:02.550 --> 00:49:28.980 Rob | blackriverpm.com: They also need you to just sit there and listen to them. And so there's a level of sav or savviness of that leader that needs to exist here when leading these teams. You know we know what the magic of the misfits are right, and they could do so much and be so powerful. But you still need a conductor here right? And and at times the conductor might have to roll up their sleeves and reteach a direction.
00:49:29.100 --> 00:49:52.549 Rob | blackriverpm.com: but in other instances they just step back, remove barriers, provide resources as needed, and those misfits have in many instances collectively, the talents and the skills. And they might just not have the direction, right? And that's where that leader comes in. So I think it's really important that once again we integrate this language piece so that we can have
00:49:52.550 --> 00:50:13.729 Rob | blackriverpm.com: these conversations, that when when you say you need challenge, I know what that means. And then I respond with, so the last time we did this, you needed this, this and this. What do you think about this time? How can I be a resource to you? Right? So my goal. My belief is that the leaders role is to create the conditions for the team to succeed, for the individuals to flourish and the team to succeed.
00:50:14.470 --> 00:50:27.340 Rob | blackriverpm.com: The problem is is that if we haven't done the groundwork, the legwork to this culture, competency building and and and laying these foundations for framework and fit matters and stuff like that. We're too busy
00:50:27.470 --> 00:50:29.150 Rob | blackriverpm.com: working day to day.
00:50:29.330 --> 00:50:49.280 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and we're almost caretaker. Ish over the team instead of giving them the autonomy they deserve when they deserve the autonomy. Not everyone deserves autonomy right out of the gate. New people. That's 1 of the problems. We they fail because we give them too much autonomy out the gate when they need a little bit of handholding and role modeling and integration. Right?
00:50:49.490 --> 00:50:53.709 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And so it's these sorts of things that we need to figure out.
00:50:54.440 --> 00:51:17.359 Rob | blackriverpm.com: how are we going to succeed? How do we use the tools and the language we've learned and leverage those in our conversations? And so what we also aspire with when we're working with teams is to get to this point where the teams themselves are coaching each other. So when someone's like, hey? I don't know what to do about Mira. She's making mistakes. We pull out our materials, they go back and say, Look, let's look at her personality, you know.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:29.370 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Tendencies and things look, she prefers it a little slower, a little bit time to reflect upon it. So maybe if you approached it a different way, so that they're building the self sufficiency. They're holding each other accountable
00:51:29.740 --> 00:51:58.540 Rob | blackriverpm.com: because they have the culture. That accountability measure doesn't sting. You know it. Really, it's an organization that flourishes. And then the leader gets to step back and look up and see where the organization is going to go. Right. I do strategy sessions with groups, and they just so many of them have to integrate preparatory cultural work. And these foundational pieces because they start to make these plans. But they don't have the inputs ready
00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:17.179 Rob | blackriverpm.com: to to accomplish those things. And they're so important. It's just like, you know, I can't run a marathon without training for it and ruin myself if I do it. There's no difference in in terms of running an organization. We have our targets, we have our goals. We need to now backwards plan to make sure that we have the system in place that can accomplish this.
00:52:17.550 --> 00:52:31.400 Mira Brancu: Brilliant, brilliant. I love it now. We started this whole thing around identity and cultural orientations. I'd love to hear how you sort of bring it all together around the influence of cultural orientations.
00:52:31.770 --> 00:52:50.699 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Okay. So I'm just gonna this is going to totally left field us. And it might be a conversation for another day. So we talk about all these fit factors. Well, this last year I spent on a sabbatical looking at cultural syndromes. So we've heard about individualism. And we've heard about collectivism.
00:52:50.940 --> 00:53:03.949 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and those are those are syndromes that occur that are tied to cultural upbringing. Right? The West is predominantly known as individualist society. So we prioritize ourselves over others.
00:53:04.150 --> 00:53:23.990 Rob | blackriverpm.com: The East is much more collectivist. Where power makes a difference, power difference is important how we arrive at decisions are a lot more collective in nature. So this last year I've been examining this through. I'm looking at it as like a Western collective lens, because not only are we complicating things when we have to start looking at fit.
00:53:24.170 --> 00:53:31.550 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Now, we're even backing it up further, that some people are more. And I like to use the word community because our organizations are communities.
00:53:31.550 --> 00:53:31.870 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:53:31.870 --> 00:53:56.190 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Are more community minded. And now, when we talk about culture and the prep that we're leading into, are we making decisions for this team. And this organization as a community base more collaboratively? Or are we hiring people that are going to work pretty much in silos and play well together? Right. Each organization gets to decide what that looks like, and and certain functions will play better with others.
00:53:56.350 --> 00:54:07.579 Rob | blackriverpm.com: But now we're looking at this list of things that relate to as I screen someone who is going to want more autonomy. Well, those are individual lists.
00:54:07.690 --> 00:54:27.980 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And so now, when we look at individualists, there's some more criteria. In there they come, horizontal individualists versus vertical. The vertical individualists are ultra rugged individualists, but they also succumb to pressure of peers. And so so the more we learn about the data and the research behind all this stuff.
00:54:28.640 --> 00:54:37.569 Rob | blackriverpm.com: I think the better. We ask questions of these candidates to determine the fit for the position. So like, I said, just kind of left field here, but.
00:54:37.570 --> 00:54:38.260 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:54:38.470 --> 00:54:42.160 Rob | blackriverpm.com: You know we we believe in getting to know as best as we can
00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:48.289 Rob | blackriverpm.com: that candidate, and to determine whether or not they're going to flourish in this environment.
00:54:48.820 --> 00:54:49.210 Mira Brancu: Brilliant.
00:54:49.630 --> 00:54:51.580 Mira Brancu: And so, yeah, I'll leave it at that.
00:54:51.580 --> 00:55:01.189 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, I would love to hear more about that. And if other people want to hear more and learn more about your work. Where can they find you?
00:55:02.428 --> 00:55:28.550 Rob | blackriverpm.com: On Linkedin is probably the best platform you know, linkedin.com slash, or just do the search, Robert. And then Leon. But the last name is spelled like Lion LION, or you could go directly to our website. And you could actually find some of my other podcasts. And this will be on there, too. Black River, the letter P for performance, the letter M for management.com.
00:55:28.860 --> 00:55:34.689 Rob | blackriverpm.com: slash, rob and thank you. You're bringing it up.
00:55:34.690 --> 00:55:35.450 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:55:36.190 --> 00:55:52.509 Rob | blackriverpm.com: And yeah, when you get on our web page, there's a contact form you could reach out. You know, we love chatting with people about these things. What's going on? We'll we'll diagnose things with organizations. There's complimentary calls. You know, we we believe in
00:55:52.690 --> 00:56:02.950 Rob | blackriverpm.com: and making work, not suck right to borrow one. Borrow one of Adam Grant's terms. And and we believe that work should fuel the human spirit, not drain you.
00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:23.590 Mira Brancu: Awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show. This has been fantastic. We could have absolutely had another hour just on where we were going with the cultural orientations, and maybe we will have you back just to focus on that. Once you put that together, and I'm sure it's going to turn into a book, and then we'll have you on.
00:56:23.590 --> 00:56:24.219 Rob | blackriverpm.com: Thanks. Mira.
00:56:24.220 --> 00:56:44.970 Mira Brancu: So everybody, what did you take away? And more importantly, what is one small change that you can implement this week, based on what you learned from Rob, share it with us on Linkedin. You heard that you can find him at Rob Leone LION. Like Lion or Mira bronco or talkradio dot Nyc, so we can cheer you on.
00:56:45.230 --> 00:56:56.529 Mira Brancu: We are on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, twitch, apple, spotify and apple Amazon Podcasts all over the place, help us reach our visibility, reach and impact by leaving a review.
00:56:56.770 --> 00:57:09.229 Mira Brancu: And thank you to talkradio, dot Nyc. For hosting. Thank you for joining us, Rob. We really loved having you on, and have a great rest of your day wherever you're tuning in from bye. Everybody.
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