EPISODE SUMMARY:
1)What a participant can expect in a psilocybin session
2) Why are the advantages of participating in a group session
3) What kind of training is out there for people/professionals
4) How can you be involved through advocacy/groups
5) What is the NJ Magic Mushroom Bill all about"
In this episode you will meet Denise Rue MA, MFA, MSW who has performed thousands of psilocybin sessions and has advocated for psilocybin in New Jersey and has been very active in moving the needle forward in NJ and beyond to safe, efficacious treatment. Denise will dive into what is involved in a psilocybin session and what are the expectations and her experience from facilitating thousands of sessions. She will provide insight into how professionals and non-professionals can be advocates and obtain training is they want to be involved in these spaces especially in New Jersey. You also learn from Denise about her concerns about the movement.
https://njpta.net/about-us
#psilocybin, #psychedelics, #magic mushrooms, #advocacy
In this episode of The Happy Spot, guest host Gaetano Lardieri explores the transformative potential of psychedelics with clinical therapist and psychedelic guide Denise Rue. Rue shares her journey from skepticism to advocacy after a life-changing psilocybin retreat, highlighting how these substances can facilitate deep emotional healing, self-discovery, and a sense of connection. The conversation also addresses misconceptions, safety considerations, and the powerful role of group experiences in fostering personal growth and reducing isolation, offering insights for those seeking alternative paths to well-being.
In this segment, Gaetano Lardieri and Denise Rue discuss the benefits of group psychedelic therapy, highlighting its cost-effectiveness and the deep sense of community it fosters. Rue also provides insights into psilocybin dosing, emphasizing that individual responses vary widely due to factors like antidepressant use and metabolism, making a "one-size-fits-all" approach ineffective. Additionally, they touch on microdosing, which some users report enhances mood, productivity, and well-being, though clinical research is still developing, reinforcing the importance of mindful, personalized exploration.
In this segment, Gaetano Lardieri and Denise Rue discuss the growing field of psychedelic facilitation and the essential qualities required for guiding individuals through transformative experiences. Rue emphasizes the importance of humility, psychological stability, and extensive knowledge in areas like trauma, human development, and indigenous traditions, as facilitators hold deep responsibility for participants' safety. They also delve into the evolving legal landscape, the push for regulation and accountability, and ongoing advocacy efforts for broader access to psilocybin therapy, reflecting the growing public demand for alternative mental health solutions.
In the final segment, Denise Rue and Gaetano Lardieri explore how psilocybin therapy affects different age groups, emphasizing that older individuals may need more sessions to break entrenched thought patterns, while younger participants might be more flexible but lack the coping skills for challenging experiences. Rue highlights the high cost of legal psychedelic therapy and the importance of harm reduction practices, encouraging mindful preparation, safe settings, and integration support. She closes by emphasizing the transformative power of self-compassion in psychedelic experiences and urges listeners to advocate for legal access while engaging with educational resources like the New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy Association.
00:00:47.510 --> 00:01:07.660 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Welcome to the happy spot podcast on Nyc radio sponsored by Jack Thomas. I'm your special guest host, Gaetano lardieri. I am a cannabis and psychedelics, researcher and advocate for many years and professionally as a consultant in these 2 spaces for the last 11 years. In this special podcast series.
00:01:07.740 --> 00:01:25.430 Gaetano FUNGGUY: we'll dive deep into all things. Medical cannabis and psychedelics, exploring how these compounds can transform lives, reduce stigma and advance groundbreaking research, drawing from my experience and connections with advocates, scientists, therapists, industry leaders, and so on.
00:01:25.430 --> 00:01:39.739 Gaetano FUNGGUY: I'll introduce you to some of the most fascinating and innovative minds in science, medicine, insurance, and beyond. Get ready for an eye-opening journey into these dynamic industries. Welcome to our 1st podcast which will feature a
00:01:39.940 --> 00:01:54.930 Gaetano FUNGGUY: colleague, a friend and outstanding individual denise rue Denise. Before I go into asking you questions and our discussion. Please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do in the psychedelic space.
00:01:56.450 --> 00:02:04.029 Denise Rue: Hi, Guy, thank you so much for having me just to the listeners. I've come down with a
00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:10.030 Denise Rue: bit of a cold, so if I'm sniffling and coughing, I do apologize. So
00:02:10.650 --> 00:02:33.989 Denise Rue: I am a licensed, clinical, social worker, clinical hypnotherapist, and a psychedelic therapist. And I came into this field pretty late in life. I was a psychedelic novice until 2018, when I traveled to a legal Psilocybin retreat in Jamaica.
00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:39.760 Denise Rue: and for the 1st time I experienced psilocybin, and
00:02:40.030 --> 00:03:00.909 Denise Rue: I had been informed by all of the propaganda about drugs lumping all drugs together, and that they would fry my brain. But I had begun to read the research that was coming out of Nyu and Johns Hopkins, Imperial College around 2017,
00:03:01.290 --> 00:03:14.590 Denise Rue: and I had been working with a really challenging population highly traumatized, and I loved working with them. But as I started to read the research.
00:03:14.700 --> 00:03:24.389 Denise Rue: some light bulb just went off, and I said, You know, I think psychedelic therapy could really alleviate so much suffering
00:03:24.490 --> 00:03:37.779 Denise Rue: for this population. And so, since I had never used psilocybin before I went to this retreat, my 1st dose was transformational.
00:03:37.950 --> 00:03:43.610 Denise Rue: I actually came out of my 1st dose and said to the retreat, leader, I don't think I can go back to my job.
00:03:44.552 --> 00:03:49.379 Denise Rue: Well, and I had 3 more doses on that trip.
00:03:49.570 --> 00:04:00.659 Denise Rue: and they asked me to come back and work as their therapist and then retreat leader. So in 2,019 I moved to Jamaica.
00:04:00.830 --> 00:04:11.610 Denise Rue: and I led dozens and dozens of retreats. I've probably supervised about 1,500 psilocybin sessions.
00:04:11.790 --> 00:04:18.480 Denise Rue: and then I returned back to the States in 2023,
00:04:19.250 --> 00:04:24.670 Denise Rue: and I founded a New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy Association.
00:04:25.130 --> 00:04:30.249 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Excellent, and tell us so. How did you become involved overall in psychedelics?
00:04:32.115 --> 00:04:40.519 Denise Rue: Was really from reading the research, because I, as I said, I was a psychedelic novice.
00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:49.870 Denise Rue: I had never experienced it in high school or college, like most of my friends, and
00:04:50.590 --> 00:04:59.080 Denise Rue: and and there was a great fear factor involved from from the advertising
00:04:59.330 --> 00:05:08.779 Denise Rue: that all drugs were bad for you, and there was no differentiation between what might be consciousness expanding
00:05:09.350 --> 00:05:15.070 Denise Rue: versus what is just mind altering, maybe to numb you.
00:05:15.250 --> 00:05:15.810 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:16.970 Denise Rue: Yeah.
00:05:17.760 --> 00:05:23.760 Gaetano FUNGGUY: So, Denise, walk us through. What a participant could expect in the Psilocybin session.
00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:50.979 Denise Rue: Okay, yeah. So psilocybin or magic mushrooms. That is my medicine. And of course there are other psychedelics, such as ayahuasca, dmt. Ketamine, which is not a psychedelic, but is kind of lumped in there. It's a dissociative, and mdma, which is an entheogen or heart opener.
00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:57.029 Denise Rue: and all of those have therapeutic applications. So with psilocybin.
00:05:57.440 --> 00:06:20.390 Denise Rue: the session would take about 5 to 6 h, so someone would ingest the mushrooms in whatever form it takes about 30 min or so for the psilocybin to metabolize to psilocin, which is the active metabolite.
00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:36.019 Denise Rue: and then that kind of docks into the serotonin receptors, and then it starts a whole cascade of experiences. So there could be yawning nausea, cascading geometric
00:06:36.090 --> 00:06:50.579 Denise Rue: forms, heightened sensations, emotions, drowsiness, the sense that you're in a different reality, and and the arc of the trip.
00:06:51.308 --> 00:07:04.469 Denise Rue: You'll be in the peak for about 2 to 3 h, and on the come down for another one to 2 h. So what people can experience during this time is quite varied.
00:07:04.510 --> 00:07:21.099 Denise Rue: But generally people feel a heightened connection to their emotions. They feel things very, very deeply, and they may be quite labile, laughing 1 min, tearful the next.
00:07:22.063 --> 00:07:28.570 Denise Rue: So what we know is that psilocybin quiets
00:07:28.570 --> 00:07:51.370 Denise Rue: the default mode network these areas in the brain which we've come to call the default mode network, which is where we hold our narrative sense of who we are. Like the story of me. All the memories and the perceptions and our ego defenses that gets quiet.
00:07:51.470 --> 00:08:15.909 Denise Rue: and when that gets quiet, all these other parts of the brain that don't usually communicate, get to communicate. So this will give us new cognitive insights, memory, retrieval, ego, dissolution, perhaps mystical experiences, and and often our
00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:24.039 Denise Rue: unhelpful beliefs about ourselves and the world, they are relaxed
00:08:24.190 --> 00:08:41.499 Denise Rue: under the drug. So there really is an expansion of consciousness which allows for great possibility for healing. So many people will say, one session is like 10 years of therapy.
00:08:41.929 --> 00:08:42.189 Denise Rue: Yeah.
00:08:42.190 --> 00:08:51.349 Denise Rue: And I know that sounds exaggerated. But you hear it over and over and over again, because it gives you
00:08:51.610 --> 00:09:00.480 Denise Rue: a completely new perspective. It allows you to access the core of your suffering
00:09:01.425 --> 00:09:06.419 Denise Rue: without resisting it, and it allows you to feel
00:09:06.540 --> 00:09:17.190 Denise Rue: a great expansion, a connection to your inner world, a connection to others, a connection to maybe a higher power.
00:09:17.420 --> 00:09:35.290 Denise Rue: And and it allows you to kind of transmute your suffering. So it's like a hero or heroine's journey, and people come out the other side rather than just have their symptoms muted and numbed.
00:09:35.500 --> 00:09:47.349 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Understood. And and Denise tell us a little bit about any pre-medical screening questions, pre-medical questions, and any consent. Can you talk a little bit about consent during before session.
00:09:47.350 --> 00:09:54.489 Denise Rue: Oh, absolutely, this is very important. So, although psilocybin is
00:09:54.900 --> 00:10:00.869 Denise Rue: incredibly safe, it does not have any potential for addiction.
00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:06.937 Denise Rue: It would be impossible to overdose.
00:10:08.560 --> 00:10:23.330 Denise Rue: so. But it isn't for everyone, because it is temporarily destabilizing, and those folks who are already in a
00:10:23.530 --> 00:10:33.449 Denise Rue: psychically destabilized place should probably not use this. So so right now, in the clinical trials.
00:10:33.820 --> 00:10:44.280 Denise Rue: they exclude people who are actively suicidal individuals with schizophrenia or a 1st degree relative with schizophrenia
00:10:45.140 --> 00:10:47.360 Denise Rue: and bipolar disorder.
00:10:47.580 --> 00:10:52.720 Denise Rue: They're starting to do research on bipolar. 2 disorder
00:10:53.665 --> 00:10:59.829 Denise Rue: and it may be that individuals with bipolar 2
00:10:59.980 --> 00:11:17.570 Denise Rue: might gain benefit from these medicines. The fear is that it could potentiate destabilization, worsening of symptoms or a manic episode, but with consent, of course.
00:11:17.660 --> 00:11:27.089 Denise Rue: someone has to be an adult and be educated about what what might come up
00:11:27.090 --> 00:11:49.370 Denise Rue: so they can give consent. And then, usually within a setting, there's also consent for any therapeutic touch that might be used because in traditional therapy we don't use touch. Maybe we'll shake hands when we're greeting a client. But
00:11:49.490 --> 00:12:13.100 Denise Rue: because this work with psilocybin with psychedelics is so relational. We can use touch. So it's usually limited to touch on the shoulder, holding one person's hand to provide support if they're going through a hard time, so you would get written and verbal
00:12:14.138 --> 00:12:17.069 Denise Rue: approval for any sort of touch.
00:12:17.070 --> 00:12:25.609 Gaetano FUNGGUY: And you mentioned set and setting. And we know how important that is. Can you just describe a little bit? What does the environment look like in a therapist's office, or
00:12:25.770 --> 00:12:30.720 Gaetano FUNGGUY: at one of these facilities, the by the blind shades, and so on, that Denise.
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:54.440 Denise Rue: So set in setting is a very important concept, and that was found out in the 19 sixties when they were doing research. So this means the the mindset of the participant coming in. How? How is the participant prepared? What mood are they in?
00:12:54.440 --> 00:13:07.506 Denise Rue: What is the presence of support and comfort. So this, these all compose the set and the settings so you would get soft lighting. You would get
00:13:08.180 --> 00:13:14.310 Denise Rue: comfortable furniture, you would get blankets. It would be cozy and comfortable.
00:13:14.420 --> 00:13:19.200 Denise Rue: and generally at least in the clinical trials. There are 2
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:31.930 Denise Rue: facilitators there, often a male and a female but in in the service centers.
00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:42.960 Denise Rue: It's only one facilitator like what what is happening in Oregon right now. And and what will happen in in Colorado soon.
00:13:43.290 --> 00:14:11.500 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right. So in Oregon and Colorado they have the Psilocybin service centers. I think Oregon's been about a year now, so we're going to collect some very good data from those. And I think Colorado, starting their Psilocybin Service Center services this year. So we'll talk a little bit more about that as well. What are some misconceptions about working with the psychedelics? Maybe you can talk about that, Denise.
00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:21.520 Denise Rue: Yeah. So the use of psychedelics is not a risk factor for mental health problems. In fact, it's protective
00:14:21.660 --> 00:14:36.710 Denise Rue: people who have used psychedelics generally show reduced psychological distress and decreased suicidality. So we we should wipe that misconception of
00:14:36.850 --> 00:14:38.436 Denise Rue: right away
00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:58.000 Denise Rue: with psychedelics. As I said, it is not for everyone. People who are coming to the medicine really should investigate be curious about why they're coming, because it is not necessarily a 1 and done
00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:12.460 Denise Rue: right. It can be, but it may require not only the medicine session, but prolonged integration of the session, and you may need, you know, tune-ups.
00:15:12.460 --> 00:15:12.910 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:15:12.990 --> 00:15:39.599 Denise Rue: Right. I think another misconception is that people will just go into transcendence and the mystical experience. Often people have to descend before they ascend. You know people talk a lot about going through ego death or ego dissolution that's often not particularly comfortable.
00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:44.369 Denise Rue: but people tend to excavate past trauma
00:15:44.920 --> 00:15:49.899 Denise Rue: and let go of what no longer serves them.
00:15:50.150 --> 00:16:01.520 Denise Rue: and then go into the ascendance, the gratitude, the awe, the potential mystical experience. So there may be challenges in there.
00:16:02.808 --> 00:16:06.760 Denise Rue: I think another misconception is that
00:16:07.110 --> 00:16:30.950 Denise Rue: the the medicine session itself will save me, and I don't need to prepare, and I don't need to integrate, whereas really we know that it is a 3 step process that we have to prepare adequately. We have the medicine session with adequate support, and then we integrate after.
00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:43.939 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Excellent, and I think we're coming up on a break in a minute. Here, let me ask you, what do we know from the research about the applications for psilocybin.
00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:57.150 Denise Rue: So psilocybin has what we call transdiagnostic applications, meaning it is not just for one condition.
00:16:57.590 --> 00:17:09.200 Denise Rue: Psilocybin does have breakthrough therapy designation from the FDA for treatment, resistant depression, and major depressive disorder.
00:17:09.270 --> 00:17:31.150 Denise Rue: But it is beneficial with a slew of other conditions. So substance misuse Ptsd. Generalized anxiety, end of life, anxiety and existential distress. Ocd. Eating disorders, chronic pain. I'm in A
00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:49.770 Denise Rue: and autism spectrum disorder. And and there are so many research studies that are current and ongoing. So there's a lot of excitement about the potential for this medicine and other psychedelics.
00:17:50.530 --> 00:18:09.730 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yeah, and let's go and talk a little bit more about the group experience, because that's fascinating. I know the group experience. That's how it's done in traditional set set and setting. But in comparison with the individual setting, can you talk more about that, Denise?
00:18:10.221 --> 00:18:17.590 Denise Rue: Yeah, so that is that is my experience, working retreats working in a group setting
00:18:17.860 --> 00:18:21.179 Denise Rue: so, I do believe this is
00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:32.050 Denise Rue: how the medicine is ideally meant to be used. So when we are wounded, we're wounded in relationship.
00:18:32.580 --> 00:18:54.299 Denise Rue: And so those wounds can optimally be healed in relationship. Of course, that does happen if we just have one facilitator or therapist with us. But when we're working in a group setting, it increases the opportunities for
00:18:54.530 --> 00:19:03.719 Denise Rue: for understanding and compassion, and often with mental health conditions. People feel shame.
00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:07.250 Denise Rue: they feel isolated, they feel alone.
00:19:07.460 --> 00:19:08.830 Denise Rue: They don't
00:19:09.370 --> 00:19:33.760 Denise Rue: really hear from other people who who are suffering because look at our world, we're presenting a face right? The the Instagram or the Tiktok. Right? People aren't really saying what's going on in their soul. At 3 in the morning, right? But in these groups
00:19:34.270 --> 00:19:41.909 Denise Rue: people get very vulnerable, and people are able to talk about
00:19:42.650 --> 00:19:56.790 Denise Rue: what what their challenges are, and we don't normally do that. So it gives this great opportunity for connection, acceptance by others.
00:19:57.090 --> 00:20:03.620 Denise Rue: reducing isolation. It's quite extraordinary.
00:20:04.391 --> 00:20:13.049 Denise Rue: And I also think it's so helpful for others for people to hear. That person
00:20:13.290 --> 00:20:17.049 Denise Rue: is going through what I am going through, or they got
00:20:17.500 --> 00:20:21.409 Denise Rue: that's what I'm going through. It gives them hope.
00:20:23.116 --> 00:20:29.580 Denise Rue: So it is. It's an extraordinary experience. And I think
00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:35.569 Denise Rue: we need to look to the group experience rather.
00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:40.500 Denise Rue: in addition to that individual clinical model.
00:20:40.830 --> 00:20:47.710 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Okay, and and we'll go. We'll take a break now, and we'll come back and talk about microdosing and a few other things, so I guess we'll go to a break.
00:22:17.670 --> 00:22:36.220 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Okay, welcome back to talk radio. Nyc, so, Denise, we did talk a bit about the group setting. And that is a fantastic model. Actually to get therapy out to the masses. And for people who can't afford individual treatment, right? So maybe you can talk a little bit more about that model, and maybe even Microdosing.
00:22:38.375 --> 00:22:45.490 Denise Rue: Okay. But just to finish up in the group model, I do think that is more cost effective.
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:59.159 Denise Rue: and and it. And also it gives people a community, because once you've done this work with people, it does feel like they are your tribe.
00:22:59.510 --> 00:23:19.359 Denise Rue: right, and that it's almost like going to war with someone, and they've got your back. And and it's almost as if the people that you're in a group with and doing a psychedelic with. They often become closer than your own family, because they know you more intimately.
00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:30.770 Denise Rue: Yeah. So I I do think there have been a few clinical studies about the group model, and I think that will be rolled out.
00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:39.026 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about typical typical dose and dosing for these different settings? And
00:23:39.610 --> 00:23:44.650 Gaetano FUNGGUY: yeah. And microdosing talk a little bit more about that, Denise. That's that's a fascinating space.
00:23:44.650 --> 00:23:58.339 Denise Rue: Okay? So so dosing it's not. It's not as clear cut as it is with, say, an antibiotic. Okay, there's a lot of things that come into play.
00:23:59.250 --> 00:24:12.449 Denise Rue: In Oregon. They they cap the dose at 5 grams, and that's known as the hero's dose. So a lot of things affect someone's
00:24:14.166 --> 00:24:18.310 Denise Rue: receptivity, the primary being.
00:24:19.020 --> 00:24:46.219 Denise Rue: if they are on, or if they are not weaned off of their antidepressants. Okay, because antidepressants will reduce the number and the density of serotonin receptors. So if you don't have those serotonin receptors, there is no place for the psilocin to dock
00:24:46.300 --> 00:24:51.189 Denise Rue: right so ideally, people need to be off of
00:24:52.156 --> 00:24:59.799 Denise Rue: their antidepressant for 3 to 6 months to optimize the dosing experience.
00:25:00.420 --> 00:25:05.449 Denise Rue: This is not to pill shame anyone at all, and
00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:14.239 Denise Rue: and people can take a higher dose in order to offset. But but it's just not
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:35.359 Denise Rue: optimal, because, being on long-term antidepressants does decrease the sensitivity, then there's a lot of other factors. If people have reduced stomach acid, if people are on medications like ozempic, which affect your digestion.
00:25:35.360 --> 00:25:52.200 Denise Rue: several other factors in general, like even your tolerance, I mean, do you take a lot of anesthesia to knock you out? So so it's not a direct science, and it really isn't linked to body weight.
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:53.090 Denise Rue: Okay.
00:25:53.090 --> 00:25:53.620 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:25:53.620 --> 00:25:58.410 Denise Rue: So in the clinical trials, usually the doses
00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:19.860 Denise Rue: 2 and a half to 5 grams, so on. In the retreat world we would generally start someone at 2 and a half or 3 grams, and then see how they respond to that. And then, generally during the week, people might want to go up
00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:24.640 Denise Rue: and to see what that experience might be like.
00:26:25.591 --> 00:26:28.559 Denise Rue: So so I don't.
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:46.859 Denise Rue: I don't believe that the bigger the better. You know. People get a little bit competitive in this, and there's this idea in the mind about I've got to do the heroic dose. Well, let me tell you, some people can be off with the fairies at 2 and a half. Grams
00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:49.449 Denise Rue: feel anything at 7.
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:57.750 Denise Rue: So it's not so dose dependent. We need to get away from that.
00:26:59.050 --> 00:27:09.739 Denise Rue: And also it varies because I believe that psilocybin, it's it's it's it's sentient. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.
00:27:11.090 --> 00:27:14.540 Denise Rue: So okay, microdosing.
00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:20.069 Denise Rue: I'm not really a microdose maven here. But
00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:27.030 Denise Rue: but, microdosing means you're taking a sub perceptual dose.
00:27:27.370 --> 00:27:51.859 Denise Rue: and it's very hard to get some good clinical research on this, because the placebo effect is involved, but anecdotally. People do swear by it for many things like reducing chronic pain, increasing motivation increasing their productivity.
00:27:52.596 --> 00:27:57.749 Denise Rue: stabilizing their mood, lessening depression. So, so.
00:27:58.140 --> 00:28:26.659 Denise Rue: so microdosing. I mean, it's out there. And people are using it quite a bit, I think. Sometimes what people call microdosing is really a meso dose very low dose, say like a half a gram or one gram. But if you know, people will be using this, we know that, but start low and slow, and don't mix substances.
00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:36.620 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right, and you mentioned ozempic. And I was thinking, dietary, can you talk a little bit about any dietary restrictions or dietary protocols for sessions prior or after.
00:28:36.620 --> 00:28:39.997 Denise Rue: Yeah. Yeah. So psilocybin is not like
00:28:40.780 --> 00:28:45.559 Denise Rue: It's not like ayahuasca where people clear out. They go on a specific dia tab
00:28:46.297 --> 00:28:48.790 Denise Rue: you just don't want to have a full stomach.
00:28:48.980 --> 00:29:00.379 Denise Rue: Okay, because that increases nausea and slows down absorption. So some people fast. But but if you're going to eat, eat lightly
00:29:00.810 --> 00:29:04.579 Denise Rue: a couple of hours before you would do a dose.
00:29:06.090 --> 00:29:14.840 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Alright. And let's when we come back from break, we'll talk about some training programs. Okay, so let's let's go to a quick break, and we'll be right back.
00:29:14.840 --> 00:29:15.870 Denise Rue: Okay.
00:30:51.310 --> 00:31:08.059 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Hey? Welcome back to talk radio Nyc. Denise. So there's lots of training programs that are popping up to train people to become psychedelic facilitators. Can you speak to about the most important qualities a facilitator should possess.
00:31:08.060 --> 00:31:11.390 Denise Rue: Yeah. Yeah. So
00:31:11.630 --> 00:31:23.750 Denise Rue: since, the change of the laws in Oregon and Colorado. And there's a myriad of bills across the nation.
00:31:26.800 --> 00:31:34.100 Denise Rue: Training programs for psychedelic facilitators have have sprung up across the country.
00:31:35.290 --> 00:31:40.970 Denise Rue: So I think many people want to do this work.
00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:48.260 Denise Rue: Many people are coming from a place of having had their own healing
00:31:48.520 --> 00:31:54.039 Denise Rue: with psychedelics, and they want to bring that to others.
00:31:55.223 --> 00:32:07.100 Denise Rue: I think what is most important is that people realize that this is such a privilege and such a responsibility.
00:32:07.230 --> 00:32:14.090 Denise Rue: because when people are under the medicine, they are at their most vulnerable.
00:32:14.280 --> 00:32:24.870 Denise Rue: So this is this is to me psychologically tantamount to what brain surgery would be. We have to go in there
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:29.690 Denise Rue: with with real mindfulness and real care.
00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:38.339 Denise Rue: So, coming in after examining the reasons why you want to come in and do this work.
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:49.870 Denise Rue: Is it ego or are you really coming in with this idea of serving others, because you yourself
00:32:50.060 --> 00:32:57.630 Denise Rue: have healed your wounds, or the medicine has helped you heal the wounds, and you want to be in service
00:32:57.730 --> 00:33:23.519 Denise Rue: to a particular medicine and to others, not to your ego. That's that's key to me, and coming in with humility. This is never about you. It is always about the participant and the medicine. You are there to hold space, to create a container that is sacred and safe.
00:33:23.740 --> 00:33:33.790 Denise Rue: So the individual feels safe and they can relax. They can surrender and let the medicine do its magic right.
00:33:35.750 --> 00:33:44.670 Denise Rue: You're ideally. You want to be nonjudgmental, incredibly compassionate, very grounded.
00:33:44.800 --> 00:34:03.990 Denise Rue: and able to deal with your own stuff because things come at you in a medicine session. The participant can project a lot of stuff on you. I've been the great mother, and I've also been the witch
00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:10.769 Denise Rue: and and the facilitator has to stay grounded and safe
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:24.000 Denise Rue: and be able to manage their own internal responses. Track what's going on in their nervous system and navigate that so they can show up
00:34:24.179 --> 00:34:26.969 Denise Rue: over a pretty lengthy session
00:34:27.580 --> 00:34:37.370 Denise Rue: for for the participant you have to have an incredible knowledge base to do this work. It's not enough just to have
00:34:37.409 --> 00:35:01.110 Denise Rue: gone through a few ceremonies. If you really want to prepare people and help them integrate, you not only have to have information and knowledge about the medicine itself. You have to know about human development. You have to have a great grounding in trauma and understanding of that you have to
00:35:01.180 --> 00:35:12.949 Denise Rue: understand about indigenous practices, maybe about myths and symbols and archetypes. There's a lot that that you have to bring to this
00:35:13.962 --> 00:35:16.640 Denise Rue: and and integrity.
00:35:18.266 --> 00:35:27.559 Denise Rue: We do know that people have been harmed in the psychedelic space by facilitators
00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:34.190 Denise Rue: who who are therapists and not therapists. There's been incidents of sexual abuse.
00:35:35.543 --> 00:35:41.160 Denise Rue: psychological abuse and unskillful behavior.
00:35:41.620 --> 00:35:56.080 Denise Rue: So we really have to be vigilant. Because outside of Oregon and Colorado, this is not regulated on a national scale.
00:35:56.801 --> 00:36:07.469 Denise Rue: I think the safety and having that regulation and having a licensing board is that the facilitator is accountable
00:36:07.950 --> 00:36:10.489 Denise Rue: right now in the retreat world.
00:36:10.750 --> 00:36:13.790 Denise Rue: There, there's really no accountability.
00:36:13.990 --> 00:36:21.709 Denise Rue: So I think it's very important to understand. What could am I?
00:36:21.850 --> 00:36:23.440 Denise Rue: What are my good
00:36:24.083 --> 00:36:31.959 Denise Rue: at? What can I bring in service to others. Can I stay within my scope of practice?
00:36:32.310 --> 00:36:35.599 Denise Rue: And I think you really have to be called to do this.
00:36:35.750 --> 00:36:37.549 Denise Rue: It is a calling.
00:36:38.930 --> 00:36:55.259 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about the actual credentialing in like Oregon or Colorado? Is there a couple 100 h that needs to be, qualify you as a trip sitter facilitator. Can you speak a little bit more about the credential credentialing.
00:36:56.560 --> 00:37:14.119 Denise Rue: So I, I might get this wrong so I so it is X number of hours in in the classroom space. Usually that's virtual.
00:37:14.450 --> 00:37:18.640 Denise Rue: And then there are the practicum hours.
00:37:18.970 --> 00:37:22.819 Denise Rue: Okay, so that would be in a practicum
00:37:23.140 --> 00:37:30.190 Denise Rue: with non ordinary states of consciousness. Not necessarily psychedelics, but maybe breathwork
00:37:30.500 --> 00:37:43.950 Denise Rue: meditation. But but it's pretty clear that anyone who is working with psychedelics with others should have used the medicine.
00:37:44.330 --> 00:38:04.859 Denise Rue: It's not required. At least it wasn't for the Oregon certification, but it absolutely should be. Because if you're hiking up Mount Kilimanjaro, you're not going to go with someone who's never been there. You want someone to know the terrain. So I think
00:38:05.150 --> 00:38:29.639 Denise Rue: you know Stanislav Groff, one of the earliest researchers, one of his models, when he was doing the research early on in Czechoslovakia was that his facilitators had to have 5 personal psychedelic sessions, and they had to do, I believe, 30 sessions
00:38:30.485 --> 00:38:35.570 Denise Rue: with a client while they were being monitored.
00:38:35.810 --> 00:38:45.109 Denise Rue: So that sounds about right to me. I mean, you really have to be in the trenches. It is not enough to just read about this.
00:38:46.740 --> 00:38:50.526 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right? Yeah. And can you talk about
00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:56.100 Gaetano FUNGGUY: advocacy? And how did you become involved with the advocacy.
00:38:56.100 --> 00:38:59.029 Denise Rue: Okay. Well, I never intended to.
00:38:59.600 --> 00:39:12.769 Denise Rue: But when I came back from Jamaica and I hadn't lived here for for 3 years, and and a lot of my friends had moved away. During the pandemic.
00:39:13.370 --> 00:39:21.859 Denise Rue: I really thought one day, gosh! I have to to meet other people who are doing this because I didn't know anyone who was doing it.
00:39:21.970 --> 00:39:30.580 Denise Rue: So I basically went on, Meetup and I started this organization and and people came
00:39:31.556 --> 00:39:37.360 Denise Rue: mostly they were ketamine therapists, and
00:39:37.660 --> 00:39:46.439 Denise Rue: and we just kind of threw this organization together. And we have 3 arms.
00:39:46.580 --> 00:39:58.510 Denise Rue: One is education of the general public and other therapists or facilitators who are doing this work. So we offer
00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:06.390 Denise Rue: monthly webinars. We offer supervision circles, and
00:40:06.860 --> 00:40:11.860 Denise Rue: we do support groups for people doing this work.
00:40:12.030 --> 00:40:25.820 Denise Rue: But we moved into the advocacy world, because at that time there there was, and there is a bill in New Jersey
00:40:26.060 --> 00:40:30.890 Denise Rue: for psilocybin services.
00:40:32.680 --> 00:40:42.958 Denise Rue: So we just sort of went where we were needed, and we joined a coalition with other
00:40:43.580 --> 00:41:12.690 Denise Rue: individuals representing educators, physicians, marijuana advocates, I mean a whole slew of people, people with chronic pain and cluster busters, a really vibrant group. And we we advocated, we lobbied, we. We spoke with the legislators. And so what happened with this bill is that we did.
00:41:13.310 --> 00:41:16.199 Denise Rue: This is SS. 2283, correct.
00:41:16.200 --> 00:41:31.439 Denise Rue: Yes, I'm sorry. It is a psilocybin. Behavioral Health Access and Services Act. It was originally introduced into the Legislature by the President of the Senate and Scutari.
00:41:31.460 --> 00:41:46.141 Denise Rue: and I believe that was in 22. It went straight to Committee where bills go to die. It was reintroduced in 24, and it got some momentum. So we actually
00:41:46.790 --> 00:41:54.129 Denise Rue: we we went when the Senate Health Committee
00:41:54.450 --> 00:42:06.099 Denise Rue: had open hearings, and we testified there, and that was voted. It passed unanimously in the Senate Health Committee, and then it was amended somewhat
00:42:06.713 --> 00:42:15.100 Denise Rue: by the house. Then we did speak in front of the house, and they passed the amendments.
00:42:15.260 --> 00:42:19.300 Denise Rue: and and then it kind of fizzled.
00:42:19.300 --> 00:42:19.690 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:42:19.690 --> 00:42:25.850 Denise Rue: And I. And I think because the primary sponsor in the house.
00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:33.610 Denise Rue: Herb Conaway won his Federal seat. And so right now.
00:42:33.740 --> 00:42:37.929 Denise Rue: as someone else in the in the legislature, in.
00:42:37.930 --> 00:42:38.569 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Just pick it up.
00:42:38.570 --> 00:42:50.890 Denise Rue: Assembly has to pick it up. So we don't know what's happening, or if legislators will move forward on this, which is really, really.
00:42:50.890 --> 00:42:52.460 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Really, important, yeah.
00:42:52.460 --> 00:42:59.860 Denise Rue: Because a recent poll showed that 9 out of 10 Americans do.
00:43:00.260 --> 00:43:00.670 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:43:00.670 --> 00:43:01.600 Denise Rue: The port.
00:43:01.600 --> 00:43:02.230 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:43:02.570 --> 00:43:09.430 Denise Rue: Psilocybin services for mental health conditions and for general well-being.
00:43:09.540 --> 00:43:12.639 Denise Rue: So the populace is in support.
00:43:12.640 --> 00:43:13.270 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yes, they are.
00:43:13.270 --> 00:43:14.510 Denise Rue: Yes, because.
00:43:14.510 --> 00:43:18.990 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Like they were for cannabis at 67%. We were the highest out of all all the States.
00:43:19.470 --> 00:43:29.619 Denise Rue: Yeah. So there's there is a recognition that what we're offering in mental health treatment is not working
00:43:29.790 --> 00:43:43.789 Denise Rue: medication talk therapy. It's not working. It's not adequate. We have more tools in the toolbox that are adequately researched, well researched
00:43:44.060 --> 00:43:46.920 Denise Rue: in much safer
00:43:47.090 --> 00:43:59.839 Denise Rue: than most over the counter drugs. So let's use those, and people really do need to speak to the legislators and voice their support for psilocybin services.
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:11.389 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yes, absolutely. Call your legislators, and we'll we'll go to a quick break. And when we come back I want to ask you about the differences in maybe, and 75 year old, taking psilocybin and a 25 year old. So we'll go to break, and we'll come back in a minute.
00:45:50.120 --> 00:45:58.449 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Okay, welcome back to talk radio. Nyc, we're here with Denise Frew. Talking about psychedelics and psilocybin service centers. Denise got a question about
00:45:59.080 --> 00:46:10.020 Gaetano FUNGGUY: different age groups. Does a 75 year old respond in a 25 different than a 25 year old? Does a male respond differently than a female. Can you talk to that for a little bit?
00:46:10.750 --> 00:46:13.820 Denise Rue: Sure. So
00:46:14.720 --> 00:46:32.420 Denise Rue: I'm not aware of any research about the differences in people who identify as male versus female and their and their response. So I certainly haven't observed that. Okay? So.
00:46:32.610 --> 00:46:35.549 Gaetano FUNGGUY: And you've done over 2,000 sessions, Denise.
00:46:36.430 --> 00:46:39.606 Denise Rue: Maybe not quite. Maybe like 1,600.
00:46:40.404 --> 00:46:42.240 Gaetano FUNGGUY: That's quite a bit.
00:46:42.240 --> 00:46:44.870 Denise Rue: Yeah, I'm pushing for 2,000.
00:46:44.870 --> 00:46:45.390 Gaetano FUNGGUY: All right.
00:46:45.990 --> 00:46:52.710 Denise Rue: So okay, I would say one thing about
00:46:53.160 --> 00:47:02.110 Denise Rue: someone who is older, we tend to get more entrenched in our thinking and concretized.
00:47:02.510 --> 00:47:12.860 Denise Rue: Over time. So the positive about using these substances early earlier is that maybe
00:47:13.130 --> 00:47:19.170 Denise Rue: younger people have not been practicing.
00:47:19.630 --> 00:47:33.130 Denise Rue: Maybe poor strategies, right. Maybe they have more flexible beliefs, so they might be a little more fluid, a little more receptive.
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.449 Denise Rue: At the same time.
00:47:36.330 --> 00:47:53.320 Denise Rue: Does a younger person have the adequate coping strategies and distress tolerance skills not to be destabilized if some rough stuff comes up during the session.
00:47:53.948 --> 00:47:56.899 Denise Rue: So I would say with an older person.
00:47:57.770 --> 00:48:01.449 Denise Rue: It might take more sessions.
00:48:02.676 --> 00:48:15.800 Denise Rue: To. It's it's almost like dynamiting the the psychic terrain. But I've worked with people even into their eighties
00:48:16.120 --> 00:48:28.140 Denise Rue: and depending so much on whether they've been on a lot of psychiatric medications. If they've been what I call highly psychiatrist
00:48:28.310 --> 00:48:37.409 Denise Rue: right? And if they've bought in into this belief that their mental health conditions are
00:48:37.600 --> 00:48:40.980 Denise Rue: simply due to a biochemical glitch.
00:48:41.240 --> 00:49:10.069 Denise Rue: and maybe they have unrealistic expectations. Oh, I'm going to take this substance once I'm going to have a mystical experience. It's going to change my life forevermore. That might happen. That might happen. But psychedelics aren't a vending machine. We know generally what people might receive, but it's varied.
00:49:10.550 --> 00:49:34.239 Denise Rue: So I wouldn't have any issue working with someone who is in their seventies. I think we do need to be clear here. So just that people don't think that I'm in New Jersey working with psilocybin because I'm not. I worked with it in Jamaica because it is a schedule still, literally a schedule, one
00:49:34.370 --> 00:49:47.890 Denise Rue: substance. So I think one of the reasons I've pushed so much to advocate for psilocybin services is because I saw the potential and the
00:49:48.130 --> 00:49:56.400 Denise Rue: through incredible healing in Jamaica. I had this tool at my disposal. It was legal.
00:49:56.860 --> 00:50:00.610 Denise Rue: and then I come here and boop door is closed.
00:50:00.610 --> 00:50:05.400 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right and full disclosure. We're not advocating for anyone to take any schedule. One drugs.
00:50:06.220 --> 00:50:14.040 Denise Rue: No, it's it is, unfortunately, in my opinion, still illegal.
00:50:14.040 --> 00:50:14.770 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:50:14.770 --> 00:50:15.860 Denise Rue: And
00:50:16.160 --> 00:50:32.090 Denise Rue: and people can only use psilocybin in a clinical trial. If they go to to Oregon overseas, and soon they will be able to go to Colorado.
00:50:33.730 --> 00:50:37.309 Denise Rue: But right? And there are
00:50:37.860 --> 00:50:48.860 Denise Rue: many states across the country. I'm sorry. Many cities across the country where psilocybin is decriminalized.
00:50:48.860 --> 00:50:49.180 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Right.
00:50:49.180 --> 00:51:00.899 Denise Rue: So it's a low priority for law enforcement. So people might feel like they have a little bit more safety. There.
00:51:00.900 --> 00:51:07.759 Gaetano FUNGGUY: These. This is very important, too, if you're getting treated in one of these other countries. So talk to us a little bit about cost
00:51:07.870 --> 00:51:12.279 Gaetano FUNGGUY: and and and in the future, when the Psilocybin service centers get approved.
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:16.400 Gaetano FUNGGUY: talk about the what, what a potential cost can be for a session.
00:51:17.470 --> 00:51:23.700 Denise Rue: Yeah, it is. It is high, it is high. Retreats are.
00:51:23.980 --> 00:51:25.889 Gaetano FUNGGUY: It's all out of pocket, too correct.
00:51:25.890 --> 00:51:27.099 Denise Rue: Yeah, there's no insurance.
00:51:27.100 --> 00:51:28.020 Gaetano FUNGGUY: No insurance.
00:51:28.020 --> 00:51:38.270 Denise Rue: No, so gosh! Retreats are at a minimum. 3,000 up to 10,000.
00:51:40.710 --> 00:51:52.089 Denise Rue: Even one session in Oregon can be upward of $3,000. So again, this care
00:51:52.670 --> 00:52:04.399 Denise Rue: used in these regulated models is for people who are privileged many of the service centers.
00:52:04.600 --> 00:52:11.390 Denise Rue: I think they're all required in Oregon. They have to provide some lower cost
00:52:11.520 --> 00:52:24.810 Denise Rue: services for people who are disenfranchised, and there are a lot of great organizations which provide lower cost psychedelic
00:52:25.130 --> 00:52:30.470 Denise Rue: use to individuals who cannot afford it.
00:52:31.110 --> 00:52:46.590 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yeah. And can you talk a little bit about what's a good harm? Reduction for psychedelics, harm, reduction method. And and then I want you to talk also about Njpta, your organization, but more about the harm reduction@firstst
00:52:46.860 --> 00:52:50.629 Denise Rue: Okay? So so we do know that
00:52:51.550 --> 00:53:03.740 Denise Rue: hallucinogen use is up. I mean it. It has. It has grown considerably with the new research. So we just have to
00:53:04.160 --> 00:53:08.770 Denise Rue: acknowledge people are going to use these substances
00:53:08.890 --> 00:53:15.499 Denise Rue: also. People cannot afford to do so therapeutically. So how do people
00:53:16.580 --> 00:53:22.750 Denise Rue: do this with as little harm potential harm to themselves
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:41.145 Denise Rue: as possible. So arrowid is a very good website, the Fireside Project Zendo Project. There are a lot of of places. People can go for information.
00:53:42.340 --> 00:53:49.840 Denise Rue: if you are in an unstable situation like you've just had a breakup
00:53:49.950 --> 00:54:08.300 Denise Rue: or someone just died. And you're really having a hard time. I would not go right to a psychedelic, because that might destabilize you more if you're actively suicidal. Consider ketamine rather than a hallucinogen.
00:54:09.940 --> 00:54:15.030 Denise Rue: So I would recommend doing your research.
00:54:16.200 --> 00:54:28.977 Denise Rue: Read about the psychedelic you want to use. Have a friend or sitter there with you to provide support.
00:54:30.620 --> 00:54:50.870 Denise Rue: don't mix substances. I know that's quite common. People use perhaps cannabis alongside psilocybin. Maybe also hippie flipping, mixing little mdma with psilocybin I'm not really going to speak to that. But just be
00:54:51.030 --> 00:55:00.839 Denise Rue: careful. Okay, and and enter in mindfully. Having done your preparation with with respect.
00:55:01.755 --> 00:55:03.660 Denise Rue: For the medicine.
00:55:03.940 --> 00:55:17.016 Denise Rue: and get some good integration after psychedelic passage is another resource where? Where they connect people up with facilitators.
00:55:18.680 --> 00:55:19.570 Denise Rue: But
00:55:21.170 --> 00:55:34.059 Denise Rue: but be mindful, take care of yourself, and really ask yourself. Am I doing this to escape an uncomfortable feeling
00:55:35.250 --> 00:55:45.669 Denise Rue: kind of like the psychedelic bypass? Or have I really really worked hard to deal with this particular issue.
00:55:45.930 --> 00:56:02.310 Denise Rue: and I feel like I'm stuck. I've gotten as as far as I can, and I really feel that this used mindfully might catalyze my healing. Start low with dose. Start slow.
00:56:02.310 --> 00:56:09.200 Gaetano FUNGGUY: So, Denise, we got 1 min left. Can you just tell us about one really good success story with one of your clients?
00:56:11.010 --> 00:56:19.739 Denise Rue: Oh, boy, there are so many I I can't just pick one, but I but I will say that
00:56:20.420 --> 00:56:39.530 Denise Rue: what people access on the medicine that they haven't been access, been able to access through traditional therapy is deep self compassion. Most people know that they're supposed to be compassion to themselves, but they've never had that embodied experience.
00:56:39.700 --> 00:57:09.309 Denise Rue: When people get that, when people really feel self-love for the 1st time. That's extraordinary. Best work I've ever done. So people can find out more through going to New Jersey Psychedelic Therapy Association and jpta.net. We have resources. It's free to join. There's a lot of good stuff going on in New York as well. So just do a little
00:57:09.420 --> 00:57:13.760 Denise Rue: Google Google search. And call your legislators.
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:32.509 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yes, call your legislators. Join Njpta. Follow me, Gaetana Lardieri on Linkedin. I post quite a bit there on psychedelics. And Denise. This was fantastic. We want to get you back. Talk about more psychedelics. But yeah, thank you. Denise for the premier podcast for psychedelics.
00:57:34.367 --> 00:57:42.700 Denise Rue: my my honor, always always happy to spread the word, and if we could ever get a call in, that would be super fun.
00:57:42.700 --> 00:57:58.189 Gaetano FUNGGUY: Yeah, we'll we'll get that in the future. But this is our Pre bear podcast and we're going to have quite a few more coming up with some physicians, scientists, researchers from Canada, and so on. So this is going to be a fantastic series. Yeah. And I appreciate the
00:57:58.330 --> 00:58:04.680 Gaetano FUNGGUY: A platform from Jack Thomas and talk radio. Nyc, so here we go.
00:58:05.050 --> 00:58:06.529 Denise Rue: Thanks, so much. Good night.
00:58:06.530 --> 00:58:08.119 Gaetano FUNGGUY: You're very welcome. Good night, everyone.
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