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EPISODE SUMMARY:
How do you balance influencing to make an impact with listening to make connection? In this episode, we'll talk with Zachary Ames about multiple frameworks from the Socratic method, current marketing approaches, and storytelling to his framework around giving and receiving feedback.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
We often talk about how important it is for leaders to communicate well, gain alignment through inspiration and influence, and listen well to gain insight and connection. But sometimes these are at odds with each other. For example, if you are trying to influence, you do not always listen. If you are in a position to give feedback, you may not be receiving equally critical feedback from others. Our guest today, Zachary Ames will help us gain some frameworks for how and when to use these skills effectively.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Zachary Ames is an award-winning leadership and talent development expert focusing on bringing out the very best in leaders at all levels of an organization. With over 15 years of experience in start-ups, Fortune 500, and global private companies there are few leadership challenges he hasn’t faced. Combining his years living abroad in Singapore, a decade in New York, and his humble roots of Salt Lake City, Zachary brings a global approach alongside local sensibility. After his corporate career, Zachary started his own coaching and consulting firm XYZ Leadership, and recently launched Prysm Leadership aiming to accelerate and advance the careers of LGBTQ individuals. Zachary is also a member of Marshall Goldsmith's 100 Coaches and creator of Forefront, the premiere global accelerator for the next generation of coaches and talent development professionals. When Zach isn’t developing leaders or hosting his podcast Expand Your Zone, he can be found in the Utah Wasatch mountains skiing all winter or hiking in the summer with his 100-lb chocolate labrador, Cooper.
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We do not receive any funding or sponsorship for this podcast. If you learned something and feel others could also benefit, please share and leave a positive review. Every review helps amplify our work and visibility. This is especially helpful for small women-owned businesses.
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
Guest LinkedIn Profile: www.linkedin.com/in/zachames
Guest Website: www.xyzleadership.xyz ; www.prysmleadership.com
Our website: www.gotowerscope.com
#Communication #Influence #Feedback #Identity #The HardSkills
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
00:00:38.790 --> 00:00:50.089 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome to the hard skills show where we discuss how to develop the most challenging soft skills required to navigate today's leadership complexities and tomorrow's unknowns.
00:00:50.100 --> 00:01:05.720 Mira Brancu: I'm your host, Dr. Mira Bronco, and my new millennials workbook for navigating workplace politics book just came out on December 3.rd Get your copy today, and in honor of that season 6 to 9 are all dedicated to this topic.
00:01:05.780 --> 00:01:08.690 Mira Brancu: Season 6. Which is where we are right now.
00:01:08.860 --> 00:01:18.929 Mira Brancu: is all about positive politics. And today we have Zachary Ames giving us some insight on influencing and other communication skills that he teaches other people
00:01:19.150 --> 00:01:26.329 Mira Brancu: other leaders, and especially some that might be seemingly at odds with each other. So we'll explore why and how.
00:01:26.410 --> 00:01:29.310 Mira Brancu: Let me just introduce him to you for a second. Here.
00:01:29.450 --> 00:01:43.550 Mira Brancu: Zachary Ames is an award winning leadership and talent development expert with over 15 years of experience in startups, fortune, 500 and global private companies. He has lived in Singapore and New York.
00:01:43.790 --> 00:01:51.119 Mira Brancu: but he also started out in Salt Lake City, which helps him bring kind of a global approach alongside a local sensibility.
00:01:51.440 --> 00:01:56.690 Mira Brancu: Zach owns coach, a coaching and consulting firm Xyz leadership
00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:10.190 Mira Brancu: and is the host of the expand, your zone, podcast which is what Xyz stands for by the way, and recently launched prism leadership aiming to accelerate advance the careers of Lgbtq. Individuals.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:25.550 Mira Brancu: He is a member of Marshall Goldsmith's 100 coaches and the creator of forefront, the premier global accelerator for the next generation of coaches and talent development professionals, which is how we met. I was in that 1st cohort of forefront.
00:02:25.690 --> 00:02:32.079 Mira Brancu: so very excited to have met him in this way, and now have the opportunity to showcase his work.
00:02:32.644 --> 00:02:40.290 Mira Brancu: And in his spare time he enjoys skiing in the mountains, and hiking with his 100 pound chocolate. Labrador Cooper.
00:02:40.940 --> 00:02:43.190 Mira Brancu: so welcome to the show, Zach.
00:02:44.370 --> 00:02:46.580 Zachary Ames (he/him): Thank you for having me an absolute pleasure.
00:02:46.890 --> 00:02:52.267 Mira Brancu: Yes. And did you just hear his voice? He has the perfect voice for a podcast, I'm so jealous.
00:02:53.690 --> 00:02:54.200 Mira Brancu: So listen.
00:02:54.200 --> 00:02:54.700 Mira Brancu: Good night.
00:02:54.700 --> 00:02:55.882 Mira Brancu: Us. When you have a chance.
00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.100 Zachary Ames (he/him): Hope hopefully, a decent face, too, as the old adage goes.
00:03:00.070 --> 00:03:03.210 Zachary Ames (he/him): voice for radio. And now podcasts, we've got video.
00:03:03.710 --> 00:03:05.489 Mira Brancu: That's right. That's right. Now.
00:03:05.995 --> 00:03:10.379 Mira Brancu: Let's start with some easy softball ones. I am not a skier.
00:03:10.540 --> 00:03:16.319 Mira Brancu: It sounds cumbersome to me. I'm not a great fan of the cold.
00:03:16.720 --> 00:03:19.739 Mira Brancu: I'm not a fan of heights
00:03:19.870 --> 00:03:25.880 Mira Brancu: or anything where gravity pulls you quickly from one height to the next at the bottom.
00:03:26.220 --> 00:03:31.830 Mira Brancu: I'll put you know roller coasters in there, but I do enjoy hiking.
00:03:31.920 --> 00:03:43.259 Mira Brancu: and I'm curious for you. What is hiking with a 100 pound laboratory, I would imagine it's the exact opposite being quickly pulled up against gravity.
00:03:44.280 --> 00:04:00.289 Zachary Ames (he/him): Luckily he's a true lab. Very curious. He's not necessarily always on a mission. He's highly distracted, so I'm not necessarily being pulled up the mountain by him. I'm often trying to get him away from the trees and to stay on the trail. So it's a it's a good fun time.
00:04:00.640 --> 00:04:07.089 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And out of curiosity, any leadership lessons you've learned from your laboratory and hiking with him.
00:04:08.211 --> 00:04:28.229 Zachary Ames (he/him): I think I mean, even as we're going to get into some of this right, the some of the basics of just the behaviors. And how do we influence? How do we get the right treats and rewards, and those kinds of things? But what I've really actually learned, and a lot of the trainers I've been following is the idea of even dog psychology. It's actually all about the relationship
00:04:28.230 --> 00:04:41.460 Zachary Ames (he/him): as much as it is. We think it's about obedience that only gets you so far. It's actually that if you can get your dog to really want to be with you and sees you as the pack leader. It makes life a whole lot easier.
00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:48.899 Mira Brancu: That makes a lot of sense. Yes, all right. So you mentioned influence. Let's get into that influence piece.
00:04:48.900 --> 00:04:49.560 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah.
00:04:49.817 --> 00:04:57.270 Mira Brancu: You do a lot of work around that. You do also do a lot of work around giving and receiving feedback. It's probably one of the most popular needed
00:04:57.300 --> 00:05:00.310 Mira Brancu: skill sets right that people ask us about.
00:05:00.450 --> 00:05:05.989 Mira Brancu: And you also do things around positive workplace politics. That's something we have in common of interest.
00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:14.650 Mira Brancu: and I was as I was looking through all of the work that you do and the ways that you take people there. Right? I was starting to think
00:05:14.950 --> 00:05:20.979 Mira Brancu: that some of these might be at odds with each other. Right? So, for example, if you influence people.
00:05:21.190 --> 00:05:23.869 Mira Brancu: what you're trying to do is
00:05:24.020 --> 00:05:33.130 Mira Brancu: get people to see things your way and to agree with you around your way right? And at least that's our understanding of influence.
00:05:33.200 --> 00:05:39.099 Mira Brancu: And if you're in a position to, you know. Give feedback.
00:05:39.741 --> 00:05:43.168 Mira Brancu: There's this sort of message that
00:05:43.760 --> 00:05:53.619 Mira Brancu: you are the one in the position that must give feedback to somebody else, and that other person has the issue that you need them to fix.
00:05:53.730 --> 00:05:57.540 Mira Brancu: But they're the opposite is that
00:05:57.690 --> 00:06:08.489 Mira Brancu: if you influence, you might not be as influenced by others, or if you give feedback, you might not be as receptive to receiving feedback from others.
00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:12.849 Mira Brancu: Right? And so I'm wondering how you think about these sort of like
00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:17.100 Mira Brancu: dualities when leaders lean into learning these skills.
00:06:18.110 --> 00:06:21.537 Zachary Ames (he/him): So I think, probably what we might tap into
00:06:21.950 --> 00:06:48.690 Zachary Ames (he/him): in a few different ways. Actually, I think a lot of it sits with mindset. So even the way that you've kind of set the premise, we often have a lot of points of view of how we would think about it right when someone says, Oh, I have to have a feedback conversation there, a whole set of emotions kind of get set off. I often tell people right when I'm coaching with someone people will call and be like Zach. I have a difficult conversation coming up, and I go. Well, you just labeled it as difficult.
00:06:49.290 --> 00:06:55.090 Zachary Ames (he/him): Right. And so I've right reframed that for most of my clients is, I have a meaningful conversation coming up.
00:06:55.150 --> 00:07:02.849 Zachary Ames (he/him): and now that's why I have to give that to you. That's why it might feel difficult is because there's something really important that needs to be shared.
00:07:03.130 --> 00:07:15.299 Zachary Ames (he/him): and we may not have the skills to do it. But that doesn't mean the conversation itself is difficult, right? And I think, even to your point of maybe if I'm influencing, I'm not influenced. Or if I'm giving feedback, I don't get to have it.
00:07:15.400 --> 00:07:22.769 Zachary Ames (he/him): There's a weird little irony in. There is actually one of the greatest influence techniques is to allow yourself to be influenced.
00:07:23.080 --> 00:07:29.479 Zachary Ames (he/him): The ability and most of you probably know this right. If you've got a partner or anyone, or even sometimes kids at home.
00:07:29.550 --> 00:07:37.320 Zachary Ames (he/him): the ability for you to show your partner that I am listening, that I may actually adopt an idea you have.
00:07:37.690 --> 00:07:49.049 Zachary Ames (he/him): I agree with one of your points right? We here in the Us. Just came off of political season. We're going into holidays. Everyone's talking about. Oh, my gosh! What's going to happen at the dinner tables.
00:07:49.110 --> 00:07:58.670 Zachary Ames (he/him): and I actually think one of those things is, instead of fighting and thinking it's a debate actually come in with curiosity and be like. Oh, that's a really interesting point. How did you come to that
00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:19.959 Zachary Ames (he/him): and show your willingness to listen? Now I'm not saying you have to change your mind. I'm not saying you have to do all these other things right, but that your willingness to be influenced, or being open to it, will most likely increase the chances that they will sit and listen, because now you're not an enemy, they're not in protection mode.
00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:34.810 Zachary Ames (he/him): They're willing to also listen to your point of view, or, more likely, even again, the way we replicate body language, or we replicate questions, they're more likely to ask you a question out of curiosity, and listen to your idea, because you did the same for them.
00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:39.089 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I I think that's really important that
00:08:39.929 --> 00:08:45.482 Mira Brancu: you turn it more into a relationship right? Like a give and receive. And I'm wondering,
00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:51.600 Mira Brancu: I think people who are 1st starting out with leaning into that
00:08:51.700 --> 00:08:56.319 Mira Brancu: might fall into the trap of making it a performative thing.
00:08:56.340 --> 00:08:58.350 Zachary Ames (he/him): Right like I'm going to.
00:08:58.670 --> 00:09:00.710 Mira Brancu: Act like I'm willing to listen.
00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:08.850 Mira Brancu: I'm going to use all the right words I'm going to say. Hmm interesting. Tell me more like all of the sort of words that they learn right.
00:09:08.910 --> 00:09:15.670 Mira Brancu: How do you help transform that mindset from the
00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:27.670 Mira Brancu: sort of tactical performative? Here's what I must say, in order for someone to feel like they're being listened to into actually listening and caring about what the other person has to say.
00:09:28.170 --> 00:09:40.909 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah, I think I mean to be honest. Sometimes those going through the motions isn't always a bad thing, because again, it's the skill. If we are trying to build the muscle, if we are not good at asking those questions, or leaning forward or nodding our head.
00:09:40.920 --> 00:09:59.110 Zachary Ames (he/him): that's not necessarily a bad place to start, so I wouldn't completely say, Don't do those things because it is a skill set, and I think that's the the beauty of even you know, this show is that's the whole point is, we're learning how to do these things. These are not innate. It's not that I magically am better at this than anybody else.
00:09:59.448 --> 00:10:03.269 Zachary Ames (he/him): So we might actually need to try that out. Now, I would
00:10:03.400 --> 00:10:20.239 Zachary Ames (he/him): probably say, how do you do that in a safer environment at the beginning or when there's, you know, the stakes aren't as high. So you're more comfortable. Right? That's why we go to the that's why I'm actually at the gym right now, so that I can ski right. My, my, I'm practicing before I perform.
00:10:20.950 --> 00:10:22.120 Zachary Ames (he/him): Those are those those
00:10:22.220 --> 00:10:27.800 Zachary Ames (he/him): big moments. But I think exactly as you said, and what we've already alluded to is
00:10:28.310 --> 00:10:35.620 Zachary Ames (he/him): you? You have to go in with that mindset. And I think that's actually why it's sometimes scary. I think it's why people.
00:10:35.810 --> 00:10:39.120 Zachary Ames (he/him): because there's an unknown at the end of that conversation.
00:10:39.280 --> 00:10:43.389 Zachary Ames (he/him): If you come in thinking, here's how I want it to come
00:10:43.450 --> 00:10:59.390 Zachary Ames (he/him): or end. This is the result I want. You will be rigid. You will be in protection mode versus going. I have a point of view and a perspective on it may be the reason and an important factor. And yes, I would prefer us to get to this
00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:00.940 Zachary Ames (he/him): direction.
00:11:01.090 --> 00:11:11.880 Zachary Ames (he/him): But if we're that tight on the actual results. We're not going to be in relationship, and it will start to shift out of influence, and it will be command and control. And
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.369 Zachary Ames (he/him): quite frankly, in my view. That's then not leadership. Right?
00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:15.770 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:20.519 Zachary Ames (he/him): So I think that's the the piece you have to get really honest with yourself is.
00:11:20.830 --> 00:11:32.200 Zachary Ames (he/him): I trust myself to handle the unknown. I can manage the conversation when it comes, and they ask me something else. I'm open to listening when they give me a different point of view.
00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:37.759 Zachary Ames (he/him): as we all know every story has 2 sides. So that's a big piece. Whenever I talk about feedback is
00:11:37.780 --> 00:11:40.179 Zachary Ames (he/him): you go in with your perspective.
00:11:40.270 --> 00:11:43.130 Zachary Ames (he/him): You have to be open to listening to theirs
00:11:43.910 --> 00:11:52.799 Zachary Ames (he/him): right? And we can get into possibly a little bit later, anything frameworks on. How do we do that? Effectively? Or, more importantly, that doesn't mean we lose
00:11:53.210 --> 00:12:15.350 Zachary Ames (he/him): the line of sight of our point right? Especially as a leader to an employee. Quite often we do have a point to make. There is a serious consequence at the end. It doesn't mean we lose that and go on a wild goose chase. When an employee, or you know again, a partner gives you. Well, here's 20 other reasons why that didn't work. That doesn't mean I have to now go manage 20 different sidebar conversations.
00:12:15.560 --> 00:12:21.809 Zachary Ames (he/him): But that's often why we get nervous is because we recognize there's going to be information that we didn't prep for.
00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:28.040 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I I feel like this is actually
00:12:28.868 --> 00:12:31.919 Mira Brancu: aligned with negotiation techniques as well.
00:12:31.920 --> 00:12:33.310 Zachary Ames (he/him): 1,000%.
00:12:33.310 --> 00:12:35.930 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. So let me
00:12:36.760 --> 00:12:44.229 Mira Brancu: pull, pull together what it takes to have like this mindset that you mentioned. So number one start with lower stakes.
00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.700 Mira Brancu: and when you start with lower stakes, number 2, practice to perform.
00:12:48.920 --> 00:12:49.460 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah.
00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:55.520 Mira Brancu: And number 3, letting go of a specific result.
00:12:55.830 --> 00:12:59.249 Mira Brancu: and being prepared to handle the unknown.
00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:05.230 Mira Brancu: and number 4 be open to other options, another, you know, other outcomes that are sort of combined
00:13:05.290 --> 00:13:10.820 Mira Brancu: between what you thought you were going into and what could come out of it as kind of an enhanced
00:13:10.930 --> 00:13:11.630 Mira Brancu: outcome.
00:13:12.030 --> 00:13:12.610 Mira Brancu: Is that right?
00:13:12.610 --> 00:13:28.539 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah, even as you said, right, whether that's in a negotiation or just deciding where we're going to dinner tonight with someone to actually needing to tell an employee that that project didn't hit the result well, or we missed the deadline. And here's the consequence. All those things
00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:41.840 Zachary Ames (he/him): are very similar in that way. But to our earlier point, I think it's really the relationship and the premise. If I come in knowing that my goal and desires for this to be a win-win for both of us. I want this to enhance our relationship.
00:13:42.010 --> 00:13:46.610 Zachary Ames (he/him): Then we're not worrying about the back and forth and the battle and me versus you.
00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:55.229 Zachary Ames (he/him): we can actually sit on the same side of the proverbial table and find a solution based on the problem, not necessarily
00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:57.710 Zachary Ames (he/him): a battle between 2 individuals.
00:13:58.050 --> 00:14:02.289 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. And one thing that we're reaching in
00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:16.599 Mira Brancu: ad break. So we're going to take a break for a second here before we go into our next section, but sort of to close out one of the things that it's also reminding me of is this phrase that I learned early on when I was training within mental health
00:14:17.177 --> 00:14:21.550 Mira Brancu: interventions, and I don't love the phrase, but I totally appreciate
00:14:21.590 --> 00:14:24.570 Mira Brancu: what it means, which is like when
00:14:25.186 --> 00:14:28.949 Mira Brancu: sometimes you're working with people with depression or with anxiety.
00:14:29.130 --> 00:14:31.670 Mira Brancu: The the goal is, fake it till you make it
00:14:32.030 --> 00:14:46.870 Mira Brancu: fake it till you make it, and that's kind of, you know. Part of what you're saying here is like, try out what feels very awkward and low in a low stake environment to practice in order to get to the point where it actually feels
00:14:46.890 --> 00:14:54.970 Mira Brancu: natural for you to be back in that environment or to be successful in that situation. That's what I'm hearing here is, fake it till you make it.
00:14:54.970 --> 00:15:02.630 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah, and I don't remember where I heard this, but you can't credit me for it. But someone actually put a nice little flip on that that said, face it till you make it.
00:15:02.630 --> 00:15:03.789 Mira Brancu: Oh, I like that.
00:15:03.790 --> 00:15:25.530 Zachary Ames (he/him): And I like that because that's actually what you're doing. Right? So if I'm actually practicing, I'm actually doing the behavior. It's not that I'm faking the behavior. I'm actually doing it right. And so I'm facing the concern or the fear I'm not hiding and really faking it, I'm actually trying. And so that to me is a much more accurate way to think about that from.
00:15:25.540 --> 00:15:48.070 Zachary Ames (he/him): And you know what I imagine is right out of that kind of Cbt behavioral therapy world is. Yeah. I may not feel like going to the party because of my anxiety, but by going doesn't mean I'm faking it. I don't have to tell people I love being here, but by walking out my door and experiencing my emotions and processing them. That's facing it.
00:15:48.580 --> 00:16:13.510 Mira Brancu: Love it. I'm going to use that from now on. Thank you, Zach. All right, we're nearing an ad break. If you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Zachary Ames. We air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. On Eastern time, and at that time you can find us live streaming on Linkedin Youtube several other locations and talkradio Dot, Nyc. And we'll be right back with our guest in just a moment.
00:18:25.590 --> 00:18:34.760 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Zachary Ames. Now, Zach, we just talked about
00:18:35.110 --> 00:18:42.870 Mira Brancu: the mindset necessary to transition into starting to get better and better at influencing skills, communication skills.
00:18:43.484 --> 00:18:52.885 Mira Brancu: critical conversations, important, meaningful conversations is what you use instead of quote unquote, labeling them as difficult conversations. Right?
00:18:53.390 --> 00:19:01.589 Mira Brancu: once you sort of start thinking about embodying that mindset you mentioned, you have some frameworks around that.
00:19:01.890 --> 00:19:05.110 Mira Brancu: and I'm really especially interested in
00:19:05.632 --> 00:19:11.340 Mira Brancu: you know, I read about your methods using Aristotle's framework
00:19:11.793 --> 00:19:21.339 Mira Brancu: using storytelling, using common like current marketing techniques. I would love to hear more about how you apply those to these skills.
00:19:21.600 --> 00:19:50.209 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah, happy to dig into any of those or all of them, I suppose. So, maybe we start. Actually, this isn't a new idea. Over 2,000 years, you know, since Aristotle wrote, I think it was the treaties of rhetoric, or something that really brought into light the idea of pathos, Logos and ethos. Many of us know those words. We may not exactly know what they mean, or we think, oh, that's some old ancient thing, but the reality is, we use them all the time.
00:19:50.310 --> 00:19:56.360 Zachary Ames (he/him): And even in this space, as we're thinking about it, maybe as a direct conversation, one to one.
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:16.850 Zachary Ames (he/him): the reality is ever. Whenever I think about influence, we are in a constant dance of influence at most moments of our lives. Right? It's I'm influencing someone else. I'm being influenced all the time, every conversation. I'm having anytime I'm at the store, whatever it might be. These things are happening to us. So
00:20:16.900 --> 00:20:25.310 Zachary Ames (he/him): recognizing then, okay, what are the different methods maybe others are using, but also, what might I be able to bring to the table
00:20:25.410 --> 00:20:40.490 Zachary Ames (he/him): so very briefly, in terms of those definitions. I'll give you one example. To to bring it to life is when we think about the ethos that I always kind of link back to the idea of ethics or credibility. Right? Do I trust this person
00:20:40.670 --> 00:20:58.149 Zachary Ames (he/him): is really the the 1st kind of question. Is there credibility to what's happening in this situation? Right. I think we've all had that moment where someone says something to us, and we're really easily able to give it no thought or concern, because I don't care that that was the person who said it. But if
00:20:58.300 --> 00:21:04.690 Zachary Ames (he/him): you know my mom said it, man, I might really care. Right? So that's, I think, a really interesting piece of it.
00:21:04.790 --> 00:21:24.879 Zachary Ames (he/him): Then we get into the which is different from that, but is sometimes a bit similar is Logos, which is very simply our logic? Does it make sense? Is there data behind this? Does A and B equal C, right? And for many of us, that is another element that we go down and go. Okay, does that actually, just
00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:27.290 Zachary Ames (he/him): Frank, quite frankly, make sense?
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:32.360 Zachary Ames (he/him): And then we have the pathos which is actually the emotions.
00:21:32.610 --> 00:21:48.189 Zachary Ames (he/him): And sometimes we like to think we don't make emotional decisions, but there's oftentimes it's a huge and key factor, and we can link that to storytelling in a minute. But emotions is actually a huge, and I will even be the 1st to admit and raise my hand, that
00:21:48.190 --> 00:22:04.769 Zachary Ames (he/him): I don't really think I use my emotions that much. I had a colleague who used to get out what was called a feelings wheel, and would, you know, jokingly but kind of not jokingly, have me point to them and label them. And I you know I didn't think that when I had them, let alone made decisions by that. And
00:22:04.770 --> 00:22:31.779 Zachary Ames (he/him): the more. I've studied this. I go. Oh, I think I make most or many of my decisions from an emotional sense. Right? So those were the 3 pieces kind of this triangle that Aristotle was putting together, and my favorite way to bring them, maybe all together in one spot, because some of us definitely give more weight to the others, just based on personalities or our backgrounds. But it we typically still use all 3 in some way.
00:22:32.060 --> 00:22:44.599 Zachary Ames (he/him): So I always go back to the classic courtroom. I love a legal thriller. And at the end of each of those TV shows or the movie, typically, right, there's a judge and 2 lawyers, and they have their closing argument.
00:22:44.610 --> 00:23:11.739 Zachary Ames (he/him): And what that lawyer typically is doing is using the fact that you are in a very nice building. The judge is in a robe. That lawyer is, you know, very well dressed, and there's wood paneling everywhere. There's a huge amount of credibility given to this moment. Right. This isn't happening in someone's garage or a backyard. And people aren't wearing their shorts and flip-flops. We have established
00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:19.199 Zachary Ames (he/him): really the ethos of this thing. And in our culture, right? We have allowed lawyers to be in a high status.
00:23:19.860 --> 00:23:37.079 Zachary Ames (he/him): Then, when they go through their closing arguments, they will walk you back through all the data points. If this person was here at this point, they couldn't have been here at this point, and therefore they that's their alibi. They're free. Or, if you look at, exhibit A, therefore this in relation to Exhibit B.
00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:42.120 Zachary Ames (he/him): Here's the conclusion they give you very logical walk you through the evidence.
00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:44.650 Zachary Ames (he/him): but that's not where they end.
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:52.390 Zachary Ames (he/him): They typically end the emotional state. And my favorite version of this is, it could have been any of us that day
00:23:52.440 --> 00:24:18.430 Zachary Ames (he/him): right? They really try to get the jury to be in the shoes of the victim, or of the person being right who they're trying to get off, and who's wrongly accused, and the idea that yeah, we are all human. We all have these emotions. We all relate to this thing. And now I'm coming in with a much more different. Yes, the evidence might be there, but now I'm an emotionally invested individual related to it.
00:24:18.620 --> 00:24:39.600 Zachary Ames (he/him): so that to me is always a fun way to start to play things out, even if it's this really simple business meeting of like, okay, do I have enough data here? Did it, you know, or am I only talking about my opinion? But if I only talk about data and I don't bring in some emotional understanding or relate to my audience. That's probably gonna fall flat, too.
00:24:40.447 --> 00:24:46.239 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I, I can, you know, even see now,
00:24:47.430 --> 00:25:03.154 Mira Brancu: what's what's played out in like at a broad stage in our society like you can make all the arguments in the world, and people will still not agree with you if you don't have the trust factor and the emotional factor. And
00:25:04.040 --> 00:25:18.079 Mira Brancu: you're right, like, there are some people who will not trust you as much if you don't bring them the data right? And people who will not be on board with you enough if they really value
00:25:18.424 --> 00:25:28.799 Mira Brancu: the human connection and sort of like that storytelling piece right? And you know I talk a lot about this when it comes to feedback giving and receiving as well.
00:25:28.800 --> 00:25:29.480 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah.
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:35.970 Mira Brancu: Which is that you're much more likely to accept feedback
00:25:36.100 --> 00:25:52.249 Mira Brancu: more easily from somebody that you trust has your best interests in mind than somebody that you don't know very well and doesn't know you, because it's easier to say, well, you don't know me right. And so It
00:25:52.370 --> 00:26:01.389 Mira Brancu: makes so much sense that you need to sort of like use these 3 in a way that that speaks to the person or your audience. And
00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:03.580 Mira Brancu: as we're thinking through that.
00:26:04.551 --> 00:26:13.830 Mira Brancu: I can see how storytelling and current marketing techniques use some of these. So I'd love to hear how you might apply that to.
00:26:13.970 --> 00:26:15.350 Mira Brancu: you know, a
00:26:16.940 --> 00:26:28.029 Mira Brancu: feedback giving and receiving situation, or even a presentation that a leader needs to give in order for everyone in the organization to sort of be on board with a new change, or something like that.
00:26:29.010 --> 00:26:33.440 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah. So I'll flip to. If we think about the marketing side of things, I again
00:26:33.810 --> 00:26:55.799 Zachary Ames (he/him): a different take on it. We can see probably some parallels of the the other triangle that I often play with in the marketing world is the idea of hope and fear right very emotionally based. But the idea of oh, you know I aspire to be like so and so one day, right, every commercial of
00:26:56.460 --> 00:26:57.489 Zachary Ames (he/him): you know.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:15.189 Zachary Ames (he/him): pick the piece of food, and that it will make you happy. Or if you buy this product right? And we're gonna see a lot of that, especially with the holidays of this idea of you do this, and therefore that it's the same thing also, sometimes with the fear that I don't want this thing, or I'm trying to
00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:25.599 Zachary Ames (he/him): be. Get away from certain elements, or, or, more importantly, the 3rd piece of that, beyond the hope and fear which most of those are speaking to is identity.
00:27:26.080 --> 00:27:29.920 Zachary Ames (he/him): and that, I think, is my favorite place to really
00:27:30.060 --> 00:27:56.719 Zachary Ames (he/him): study and and think about in a lot of different ways. One of my favorite pieces, especially when we think about this whole world is in behavioral economics, because the basis of economics is that we are all making very rational decisions. I have all the information I need. I look at my choices and I do what's best for me. Well, behavioral economics basically has become a whole new, really bubbling up
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.590 Zachary Ames (he/him): world of study, because
00:27:59.610 --> 00:28:08.469 Zachary Ames (he/him): we know we make irrational decisions. We do not make the decision. That is always the best thing, or we spend money in really interesting ways. And when we look at that from
00:28:08.540 --> 00:28:35.500 Zachary Ames (he/him): an identity perspective, it's interesting. One of my favorite little studies on this was at the Petrified National Forest. I think it was. Basically they don't want you taking right. If anyone's been to a national park, you're not supposed to take the rock or the trinket or the fossil you find. And so on average, they were studying about 3% of the rocks. They put out fake ones. About 3% in 10 h were taken.
00:28:35.500 --> 00:28:59.619 Zachary Ames (he/him): Then they put up a sign that said, You know, other people, basically, rather than saying, Don't take it. They, from an identity perspective, actually said, other people are taking these, and therefore the request not to basically don't be like these people, but the fact that they planted the seed that other people were already doing it increased it to 8% almost 3 times
00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:26.729 Zachary Ames (he/him): right? And we've seen this in same thing just simply saying, Don't litter. But if it's there were. There's a big ad campaign that said Americans are more likely to litter, and it actually increased it. Because I'm identifying as an American. I'm identifying with other people who are doing this. And it's just wild. How sometimes just the language, or when I see others or others are okay to do that, you know. So the old adage, if your mom ever asked you, you know, would you jump off a bridge.
00:29:27.310 --> 00:29:33.529 Mira Brancu: So some of the data might actually say, Well, if it's my friends doing it, I I might. I might.
00:29:33.840 --> 00:29:43.779 Mira Brancu: Yeah, that is fascinating. We are reaching ad break. I would love, after the ad break, to get further into this combination of hope, fear, identity.
00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.270 Mira Brancu: and how to
00:29:46.560 --> 00:30:06.819 Mira Brancu: apply that in positive workplace politics, ways, where we could influence for good. We can influence to gather people around, you know, inclusion and better outcomes love to get into that. So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Zach Ames, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:28.129 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mara Branco and our guest today. Zach Ames.
00:32:28.647 --> 00:32:40.459 Mira Brancu: and Zach talked with us 1st about the mindset mindset shift required to really positively engage in
00:32:40.620 --> 00:32:44.660 Mira Brancu: healthy, productive, effective communication and influencing skills.
00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:56.179 Mira Brancu: and then shared with us some really interesting frameworks. Aristotle's framework around pathos, logos, and ethos. And then this hope, fear, and identity is where we left off. And
00:32:56.470 --> 00:32:57.980 Mira Brancu: I'm really curious
00:32:58.100 --> 00:33:08.946 Mira Brancu: about how we can apply this, how leaders can apply this to creating healthy workplace environments. I'm also curious about where the hiccups and the pitfalls could happen. So
00:33:09.370 --> 00:33:14.600 Mira Brancu: walk me through like, if I'm a leader and I'm trying to like
00:33:16.120 --> 00:33:20.831 Mira Brancu: let's go big. Let's go big, create culture, change right?
00:33:21.670 --> 00:33:26.530 Mira Brancu: How does hope fear and identity play into how I communicate
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:31.659 Mira Brancu: at the individual level, at the team level and at the organizational level. What does it look like?
00:33:32.860 --> 00:33:43.880 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah, it's an interesting one. Because and I think it depends on how big that that change is. And so sometimes. And I, I want to be really clear here. I think it goes back to kind of our very beginning piece of
00:33:43.960 --> 00:34:01.959 Zachary Ames (he/him): if I'm influencing. And I'm not being influenced. This idea. One of the most common questions I get when we talk about influences like, well, is this manipulation right? And so I want to be very clear back to the mindset thing. The intent here really is that I'm not sitting here trying to pull strings and get people to do things
00:34:02.050 --> 00:34:19.599 Zachary Ames (he/him): that they wouldn't do otherwise. Right? That's another core element, I think of behavioral economics is we want to influence the conditions whereby people can make their own best decisions. But we aren't forcing hands. And we aren't. You know, it's not threats, especially that fear thing is like. If you don't do this, then
00:34:19.650 --> 00:34:21.689 Zachary Ames (he/him): we're gonna you know, whatever
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:36.609 Zachary Ames (he/him): that said, we can also be honest, and again hit some of that pathos piece of Hey, this is the direction this company is going. If things don't change. Here's the result. And if that's honest, that's
00:34:36.659 --> 00:34:37.819 Zachary Ames (he/him): a really
00:34:38.179 --> 00:34:46.430 Zachary Ames (he/him): powerful and sometimes very important thing for people to say, Hey, let's shape up. I actually was in a. It was a really
00:34:46.540 --> 00:34:49.920 Zachary Ames (he/him): powerful meeting that my team got called into.
00:34:50.436 --> 00:35:13.629 Zachary Ames (he/him): We had just got our global head had left. The new global head had been brought in wasn't necessarily part of talk about identity wasn't necessarily part of our tribe was kind of an outsider. Didn't speak our language, didn't really know what we did. It was a weird fit in terms of the team, and so there was some kind of
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:20.390 Zachary Ames (he/him): back channel, talking, and quite frankly, some gossip and question Mark, and therefore you could imagine the behavior and some resistance.
00:35:21.446 --> 00:35:32.540 Zachary Ames (he/him): And we had the the, I think, not the head of Hr, but the the other person above our global head. Anyway, in terms of rank, basically got everyone in a room and said
00:35:32.600 --> 00:35:44.909 Zachary Ames (he/him): that one. This needs to stop and 2 either shape up or ship out like we are so grateful for everything you've done to get us to this point, in this, on this team and in this organization. But this is the new direction we're headed.
00:35:45.540 --> 00:35:55.939 Zachary Ames (he/him): And we, this is what we need. And this is the reason we made this decision. We are very. We're so grateful for all the hard work. But this is what we're doing, and we need to move on. And it wasn't a like
00:35:56.030 --> 00:36:00.960 Zachary Ames (he/him): ultimatum. And this big, fear-based thing. It was just very matter of fact of this is what's happening.
00:36:01.642 --> 00:36:27.670 Zachary Ames (he/him): I've also seen it work in really good ways, too, around. Talk about hope. The story of what's possible. I think people latch onto that, especially in difficult times. If we do this, especially if you're trying to get that extra effort out of individuals and across a broader organization. This is what's possible. If we really believe it's why we talk about the values on the walls and have mission statements and all that stuff.
00:36:27.740 --> 00:36:31.360 Zachary Ames (he/him): Some of it. We can kind of read between the lines and go. That's just
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:48.049 Zachary Ames (he/him): a consultant through something together versus do we really believe this? Is this our story. Is there a hopeful future if we are able to accomplish this right? I often joke that it didn't take rocket scientists to get us to the moon.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:37:02.259 Zachary Ames (he/him): It was Jfk. Standing and saying, Right, I have this idea that we will one day. Obviously it took many rocket scientists. But when that one statement of this idea of hope or this idea of what could be
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:15.849 Zachary Ames (he/him): all the resources. Our national attention changed, budgets changed, probably hiring decisions changed, and we actually got ourselves in that direction, and it was about the hope of a future. It was the story that got told.
00:37:16.040 --> 00:37:30.429 Zachary Ames (he/him): and it was a lot of the identity that I want to be part of that, or I believe in that, too. Right? So you see, these strings kind of coming together often. It's rarely one thing but multiple things that we can braid together to to get us our results.
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:32.129 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, I
00:37:32.160 --> 00:37:55.010 Mira Brancu: I'm thinking, like in in the 1st story, that you had just sending the message, this is not us. We don't do this right. Is a way to shape the identity of a positive work culture by describing what is a negative work culture that we don't want right? And in kind of that second is like.
00:37:56.004 --> 00:38:03.479 Mira Brancu: what is possible for us as a country to achieve right? And you know, I
00:38:04.390 --> 00:38:08.410 Mira Brancu: I'm also thinking about like my own process, as I
00:38:08.650 --> 00:38:13.379 Mira Brancu: over the years, have tried to hone my own messaging about what I offer.
00:38:13.430 --> 00:38:14.770 Zachary Ames (he/him): And what I'm.
00:38:15.180 --> 00:38:17.819 Mira Brancu: Often struggling with is
00:38:17.860 --> 00:38:32.319 Mira Brancu: sometimes I have hired or read marketing books that keep telling me the same thing up, the sense of urgency up the fear factor, make people feel like you're, you know, talk to the pain point.
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:35.929 Mira Brancu: and I have found it nearly impossible
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:44.619 Mira Brancu: for me to do, because it's so misaligned with feeling authentic to how I do things.
00:38:44.710 --> 00:38:49.239 Mira Brancu: The hope piece, the identity piece feels a lot more aligned.
00:38:49.618 --> 00:38:54.550 Mira Brancu: But I have also seen that in, you know, just like in our own country.
00:38:54.680 --> 00:39:04.829 Mira Brancu: sometimes describing what could go wrong. The fear factor right if you don't take this action, seems to work really well.
00:39:04.890 --> 00:39:11.069 Mira Brancu: Unfortunately, I don't love that, but that seems to be a message that also seems to work. Is there a way to like
00:39:11.640 --> 00:39:15.865 Mira Brancu: combine it? But in authentic ways, instead of ways that, like
00:39:17.020 --> 00:39:23.509 Mira Brancu: like you mentioned already, you know, not manipulating people, but in ways that is with integrity.
00:39:23.890 --> 00:39:46.029 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah. So I think your example is great, and actually probably is combined. Right? If you're only telling people, hey, you know, in our line of work in industry. I can now see it a mile away on Instagram, when someone says, Hey, I'm looking for. I have 5 spots open. No, you don't. We all know that that's now become a technique? It's a tactic doesn't mean it doesn't.
00:39:46.030 --> 00:39:49.229 Mira Brancu: Although I actually only make 6 spots open, just to be clear.
00:39:49.230 --> 00:40:06.229 Zachary Ames (he/him): Right, but well, and that's the thing. So if it's genuine and honest. But if it's being sent, and and it is out of concern for the ability for someone, because you care. And hey, you've talked about this. We know the hope that you have for yourself. Here's the work and solution I provide. And I believe that's genuine.
00:40:06.250 --> 00:40:09.110 Zachary Ames (he/him): And there are only 6 spots left.
00:40:09.220 --> 00:40:29.900 Zachary Ames (he/him): I'm doing it as a partner to let you know and give you more information. Yeah, it's very different from false urgency. That's act. That's accurate urgency, right? Similarly, though, I fall for it all the time, if there is an extra 60% off of the sale items at Jcrew. I spend a hundred dollars every time, right?
00:40:29.900 --> 00:40:42.770 Zachary Ames (he/him): And it's because I also know that there are only so many sizes, or that the sale will not be here next week. So that's always going to be a factor. But oftentimes it's the hope piece combined with that
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:50.700 Zachary Ames (he/him): which allows us to do that. And even, as you said, without getting into the details of the politics, I actually think as much as we fear what
00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:58.539 Zachary Ames (he/him): the country could be in some of our votes, it is linked very heavily to a hope for the kind of country we want it to be.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:40:59.430 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:40:59.430 --> 00:41:11.919 Zachary Ames (he/him): So it's the dials often. I don't think I rarely am I living in a world of switches. I think we live in a world of dials, and how much am I cranking one up or turning the other one down? Or what's the combination of the 2.
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:18.809 Mira Brancu: Absolutely absolutely. Yeah. So where have you seen the greatest
00:41:19.140 --> 00:41:36.980 Mira Brancu: misunderstandings or pitfalls when leaders try to put all of this together and try to improve their sort of like win-win outcomes and being, you know, leading with integrity, trying to create positive change, using these techniques.
00:41:38.623 --> 00:41:54.400 Zachary Ames (he/him): There's there's a couple places that might come to mind. I think one is sometimes when people think, Oh, the kind of leader I need to be, and I agree we should be more connected. We're already hearing in our conversation, more around relationships. And what sometimes that does, though, is it
00:41:54.980 --> 00:42:00.820 Zachary Ames (he/him): moves a leader to a point where they feel they can't make a decision, or they have to satisfy everyone's needs
00:42:01.020 --> 00:42:10.229 Zachary Ames (he/him): right if I'm open and I'm trying to influence, and I feel I have to be open to influence. Therefore I have to listen to everyone. I have to satisfy everyone that becomes really, really difficult.
00:42:11.140 --> 00:42:26.469 Zachary Ames (he/him): Unfortunately, or maybe in a good way, most companies are dot, not democracies, not everyone has a vote. Right? You take in that information. But that becomes a data point. But you still get to say, even as my leader in that example said, this is the direction we're headed
00:42:27.100 --> 00:42:35.710 Zachary Ames (he/him): right. And so sometimes there will be, and you make that decision, knowing very well that there what might be some ramifications some people might leave.
00:42:35.890 --> 00:42:51.920 Zachary Ames (he/him): You may have to have that really tough conversation and fire some people, but with that ability, when you're trying to navigate too many things and satisfy too many things or too many people, you end up, not really going anywhere. I see this especially. One of the biggest
00:42:52.030 --> 00:42:59.099 Zachary Ames (he/him): challenges for companies is in that startup phase, who everyone was doing everything and rolled up their sleeves, and
00:42:59.430 --> 00:43:11.069 Zachary Ames (he/him): it was scrappy, and there was energy, and you know there weren't wasn't really an Hr. And you can kind of do anything and everything. And you get up to 50 people, maybe 80 people. And all of a sudden you have to shift
00:43:11.300 --> 00:43:27.100 Zachary Ames (he/him): and actually put in some structure. You have to put in an org chart you have to put in certain policies, and people start to say, Well, this isn't the company I joined, or I don't believe in this anymore or my other favorites. I remember very distinctly someone saying, I'm doing too much. I
00:43:27.170 --> 00:43:42.820 Zachary Ames (he/him): I'm in too many. I'm spread too thin, and so we, the company I was working with. They hired someone else to take on a big part of that role, and the person then went. I'm no longer in all the decisions. What's happening? I you know. And we're like, well, we gave you what you wanted
00:43:43.060 --> 00:43:46.340 Zachary Ames (he/him): and unreal UN, you know, didn't realize
00:43:46.620 --> 00:44:01.149 Zachary Ames (he/him): there was consequences to that, that they are not as influential as they were in these things, and but the the ability, though in that to you I love that word. You've used right what feels aligned to you, and often most companies or founders have. That
00:44:01.150 --> 00:44:18.790 Zachary Ames (he/him): is what is still true for us. What is our true outcome. What is best for our consumer and customer, and the market's going to constantly change, so we will change and evolve. But how do we do that in a way that is still true to us. How do we still tell the right story around that, and know that there will be
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:26.810 Zachary Ames (he/him): some impact to that. We everyone who starts with us may not be the people who finish with us. And that's okay, too.
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:31.359 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate
00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:41.390 Mira Brancu: that. And and I'm thinking, that's a perfect time to use storytelling because, there's so many people
00:44:41.430 --> 00:44:48.050 Mira Brancu: that get stuck on. But we always did this this way or But I had that.
00:44:48.260 --> 00:44:56.589 Mira Brancu: you know Job in that way, and I don't like the way things are, and I want it to go back, or I want it to, you know. And
00:44:56.720 --> 00:45:02.940 Mira Brancu: if you're able to structure in a storytelling way by saying we used to do this.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:16.949 Mira Brancu: And then we learned this, and then we decided to move in this direction. And what we learned is this, it helps move people along to like help be part of that story, and that also connects to the identity piece as well.
00:45:17.670 --> 00:45:18.570 Zachary Ames (he/him): Absolutely.
00:45:18.570 --> 00:45:32.819 Mira Brancu: Yeah, love this, we are reaching our final ad break. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Zachary Ames. We air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern time, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:47:36.100 --> 00:47:41.629 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Bronco and our guest today, Zachary Ames.
00:47:41.790 --> 00:48:09.969 Mira Brancu: So we've been pulling all of these frameworks together around the mindset and kind of the the storytelling, the way to think about how to convey a message authentically and with integrity, bringing out, you know people's possibilities and how they identify, and I can't help but go, you know. Take this back to kind of your next step in your you know Company's trajectory by. You know you added
00:48:10.881 --> 00:48:18.179 Mira Brancu: another company prism leadership which aims to accelerate and advance the careers of Lgbtq.
00:48:18.797 --> 00:48:23.050 Mira Brancu: Plus individuals, and I'm wondering how you
00:48:23.150 --> 00:48:31.710 Mira Brancu: are thinking about the impact, the influence through that work, and how that might relate to everything that we've been talking about.
00:48:32.580 --> 00:48:49.810 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah, it's an interesting journey. Speaking of storytelling, I'll give a very brief one. My very 1st real corporate job. It was at Bloomingdale's in the heart of New York City on 59th and Lexington doing this type of work and leadership development.
00:48:50.030 --> 00:49:04.430 Zachary Ames (he/him): And yet it was the 1st time in my early twenties after living in Utah my whole life that I started living, you know, as my true self, as a out gay man, but I didn't know how to do that in a corporate setting.
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:09.660 Zachary Ames (he/him): or what that meant, or what the ramifications were, and a lot of question marks there. So I went to. They had a
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:27.899 Zachary Ames (he/him): head of diversity, and I knocked on her door and sat down and literally asked, How do I come out at work? And we joke about it, now that you know it wasn't like a high school counselor's office. There's no little trifold pamphlet to hand, but she was very nice and very polite, and we we had conversations about it, and
00:49:27.900 --> 00:49:41.320 Zachary Ames (he/him): some of the irony right was that I was in New York. I was working in fashion in retail. My boss's boss, you know, had the quarter share in Fire Island, a famous, you know, gay beach resort and destination.
00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:48.940 Zachary Ames (he/him): and yet the most senior leadership. The people who sat on the quote unquote 7th floor of the store.
00:49:49.600 --> 00:49:59.529 Zachary Ames (he/him): They were all in their black suits, and none of them were out. I did not see that representation, and still needed and had those questions, even in what was an.
00:49:59.930 --> 00:50:05.589 Zachary Ames (he/him): you know, not unexplicitly, a very open and inclusive environment.
00:50:05.740 --> 00:50:10.359 Zachary Ames (he/him): So I remember that very, very early on. And then, as I continue my career
00:50:10.410 --> 00:50:18.220 Zachary Ames (he/him): just as someone who's helped people advance their their own careers. That's been my job inside most organizations is to do that.
00:50:18.310 --> 00:50:28.759 Mira Brancu: And when you do the research, it doesn't take much to do. There's only 3 out Ceos in all of the fortune 100 and the foots one or 500 100.
00:50:28.900 --> 00:50:42.480 Zachary Ames (he/him): So it's super super small numbers. You dig even further. Most board directors. It's not even 1% of board seats of publicly traded companies are out, and many of those are filled by the same person.
00:50:42.520 --> 00:50:51.080 Zachary Ames (he/him): And so the representation of where some of this power sits and lies is not representative of again just the broader population.
00:50:51.200 --> 00:51:00.129 Zachary Ames (he/him): So the idea of prism, therefore, is pretty simple, is to help people accelerate their careers, and when I look at it.
00:51:00.350 --> 00:51:12.700 Zachary Ames (he/him): We have the playbook. I've done it with so many other individuals. There's clearly this group that doesn't necessarily have that playbook. And so why not give it to them is is really the basic premise.
00:51:13.340 --> 00:51:23.780 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of the sort of way to apply influence.
00:51:25.930 --> 00:51:28.719 Mira Brancu: Hope, identity storytelling.
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:37.380 Mira Brancu: How might you think about how a leader who is in the top ranks of an organization
00:51:38.157 --> 00:51:40.069 Mira Brancu: and is committed.
00:51:40.270 --> 00:51:41.640 Zachary Ames (he/him): To.
00:51:41.860 --> 00:51:45.570 Mira Brancu: Creating an inclusive environment that's comfortable
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:49.799 Mira Brancu: for people to come out for people to feel comfortable with their true selves.
00:51:50.230 --> 00:51:52.559 Mira Brancu: What might they be able to do
00:51:52.620 --> 00:51:56.499 Mira Brancu: to to use some of these skills in order to create that.
00:51:57.620 --> 00:52:20.829 Zachary Ames (he/him): So it's an interesting. So as I kind of looked at that data, I went, I can't be the only one person who's seeing this, and there are a lot of organizations out there who are doing exactly what you've said, and I think it's very good and very positive. And unfortunately, though it's still missing the mark. So a lot of people are saying or telling the story, or using in their advertising right, or do big pride events, and they try to keep signaling that it's okay.
00:52:20.830 --> 00:52:28.890 Zachary Ames (he/him): But what's not happening, and what we've moved away from is some of the reality of what it means to be a senior leader.
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:36.569 Zachary Ames (he/him): and it's become this dirty word. So I'm glad you're talking about it, even in your upcoming book. But it's a key piece of the prism curriculum
00:52:36.670 --> 00:52:54.729 Zachary Ames (he/him): is the idea of positive politics, and it doesn't mean that it's bad and wrong and back channeling and all this stuff. But recognizing that in every company and every culture there are centers of influence and positions of power. And quite frankly, even some of the the
00:52:54.790 --> 00:53:18.299 Zachary Ames (he/him): interesting research, even chimpanzees do this, they curry favor by bringing bananas to the you know the head chimp, and also do association and affiliate with the right people in the group. And so, if we don't recognize what that is, or what I often talk about, like the proverbial golf course, the politics is happening. Whether or not you're choosing to play it or be part of it or not. And
00:53:18.410 --> 00:53:37.910 Zachary Ames (he/him): we've I started to think that it's a bad thing. So we don't talk about it anymore. But the reality is when you're coming back from a client meeting. If someone is not pulling you aside and saying, Hey, this is what went really well, or Hey, that didn't go well, we need to circle back and make sure. Otherwise we're on risk of burning that bridge. It's that inside
00:53:38.150 --> 00:53:41.909 Zachary Ames (he/him): scoop that typically gives you the inside track.
00:53:42.170 --> 00:54:03.339 Zachary Ames (he/him): And unfortunately, just from a saturations number the like-mindedness and identity piece, we often aren't mentoring and sponsoring and giving that informal information to members of the LGBT community, and quite frankly, many other underrepresented groups. It's not just this one. And so that actually would be one. My advice to anyone.
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:18.100 Zachary Ames (he/him): Who are you talking to? Who are you giving that inside scoop to? How do you give it to others? And on the other side, that's our hope with this program is to actually give that opportunity to people to advocate for themselves and seek it out.
00:54:19.060 --> 00:54:38.029 Mira Brancu: That's fantastic. I mean, you and I are both on the same page around this, like, you know, you working with the Lgbtq plus population and me working primarily to help women. And, you know, underrepresented women navigate complex work cultures and unspoken rules about those cultures is, you know, most
00:54:38.130 --> 00:54:47.380 Mira Brancu: folks in these historically marginalized situations just have not had access to that information.
00:54:47.510 --> 00:55:00.370 Mira Brancu: to the resources to navigate these systems and the unspoken rules. There's lots of rules you can find in policies. But there's these unspoken rules about how to navigate the culture. And
00:55:00.390 --> 00:55:11.657 Mira Brancu: when that happens when you understand, and it's revealed in a much more clear way. Oh, okay, these are the informal influencers, and these are the, you know,
00:55:12.080 --> 00:55:14.766 Mira Brancu: pieces of information I didn't know about.
00:55:15.380 --> 00:55:20.269 Mira Brancu: It makes such a massive difference in your career, trajectory and outcome.
00:55:20.610 --> 00:55:29.579 Zachary Ames (he/him): Yeah, just as simple as I learned early on. If I needed a meeting with a certain senior leader, I needed to curry favor with the executive assistant.
00:55:30.422 --> 00:55:44.589 Zachary Ames (he/him): It wasn't again. It wasn't manipulation. I genuinely enjoyed that person. But if I didn't maintain that relationship or ask about the grandkids every time I was near in their office area. I didn't get what I needed.
00:55:44.820 --> 00:55:50.729 Mira Brancu: Absolutely, absolutely okay. So if people are interested in reaching out and connecting with you.
00:55:50.870 --> 00:55:52.430 Mira Brancu: tell us, where can they find you?
00:55:53.030 --> 00:56:19.669 Zachary Ames (he/him): You can find me at. I've got a couple different Instagram handles. But mostly if you come to my website Xyz Leadershipxyz, for any and all things leadership and training and development. Or if you're interested specifically about this LGBT leadership program, we have prism leadership. That's PRYS. M. There are contact details there you can reach out to myself or any of our team members. We'd be happy to share more.
00:56:20.250 --> 00:56:34.180 Mira Brancu: Excellent, excellent, all right, folks. So what did you take away from today's talk? And, more importantly, what is one small change that you can implement this week, based on what you learned from Zach.
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:40.949 Mira Brancu: Share it with us on Linkedin as well as@talkradio.nyc. So we could cheer you on
00:56:41.490 --> 00:56:57.410 Mira Brancu: and Talkradiomyc is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Twitch, apple, spotify Amazon podcasts all over the place. Please help us increase our visibility, reach and impact so that we can help other people by leaving a review.
00:56:57.610 --> 00:57:10.399 Mira Brancu: The stuff that I talk about on this show is part of my research-based strategic leadership pathway roadmap that I use to help socially conscious organizational misfits on their leadership journeys. You can find out more about us.
00:57:10.720 --> 00:57:18.769 Mira Brancu: www.co towerscope, dot com. And now, you've learned how to also access Zach and his brilliant resources.
00:57:19.130 --> 00:57:24.100 Mira Brancu: So do so and make sure to look him up on his podcast as
00:57:24.200 --> 00:57:31.549 Mira Brancu: as well. His podcast again, is expand your zone. So you can hear more about him.
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:37.420 Mira Brancu: Thank you to talkradio dot Nyc for hosting. Thank you for joining us today with
00:57:37.430 --> 00:57:39.930 Mira Brancu: Zachary Eames. Zach, thank you for joining us, and.
00:57:39.930 --> 00:57:41.900 Zachary Ames (he/him): Thanks for having me. It was a great conversation.
00:57:42.130 --> 00:57:46.920 Mira Brancu: Absolutely have a great rest of your day. Everybody, wherever you're tuning in from bye all.
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