Tuesdays 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EDT)
EPISODE SUMMARY:
We often talk about boundary setting and leading with authenticity and integrity as ways to create healthier work cultures. But why? What is the deeper reason behind this and how can leaders, especially those holding marginalized identities, attend to their own inner experiences to ultimately shape a more human-centered world? That's what Laura Phoenix will be sharing this in episode and we explore the the intersection of trauma-informed practices, leadership, and organizational health.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
This episode explores the intersection of trauma-informed practices, leadership, and organizational health. Many leaders holding marginalized identities face multiple traumatic stressors in life that are often replicated in high-pressure work environments, and in a number of cases that can add up to invisible pressure that harms our wellbeing. We'll talk about how pressures to conform to dominant culture might show up unseen, how those might be felt, and how that feeling might lead us to lead more authentically or to leave organizational structures and leadership roles that perpetuate harm. We'll also discuss how boundary repair work and somatic healing methods can help leaders create healthier organizations or exist in less healthy organizations.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Laura Phoenix (she/they) is passionate about helping people tap into the body’s role in how we feel and how we heal. As the founder of Warrior Pose Yoga & Healing, which is based in Durham, NC, Laura has guided thousands of people to discover new ways of feeling better, safer, and more able to grow alongside the trauma they carry.
As a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner (SEP), certified yoga teacher, and healing professional for more than 10 years, she emphatically welcomes humans of all shapes, races, and genders to her practice. In addition to her deep professional experience, Laura is also an abuse and trauma survivor who trusts in healing yoga and bodywork to guide herself forward. Personally, she comes to this work as a cis, queer, white, able-bodied, neurodivergent human – honored to hold space and learn from the diverse perspectives of the folks she serves.
Beyond healing work, Laura can also be found running in the first morning light, planting in her garden, and laughing with the people who fill her days with love and shared meals, game nights, and cozy chats by the fire.
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We do not receive any funding or sponsorship for this podcast. If you learned something and feel others could also benefit, please leave a positive review. Every review helps amplify our work and visibility. This is especially helpful for small women-owned boot-strapped businesses. Simply go to the bottom of the Apple Podcast page to enter a review. Thank you!
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WEBSITES:
Guest LinkedIn Profile: Guest Website: www.warriorposeyoga.com
Our website: www.gotowerscope.com
trauma, healing, neurodivergence, queer, intersectional, somatics, recovery, #TheHardSkills
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
00:00:44.670 --> 00:00:55.929 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome to the hard skills show where we discuss how to develop the most challenging soft skills required to navigate today's leadership complexities and tomorrow's unknowns.
00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.829 Mira Brancu: I'm your host, Dr. Mira Bronku, and my new millennials workbook
00:01:01.070 --> 00:01:04.970 Mira Brancu: for navigating workplace politics is coming out on December 3rd
00:01:05.110 --> 00:01:12.510 Mira Brancu: so Season 6 is focusing on developing proactive strategies for positive, honest power and politics
00:01:12.620 --> 00:01:19.650 Mira Brancu: and influence. I mean, and today is a very interesting way to think about this and that. I bet you've never, ever considered.
00:01:20.100 --> 00:01:29.719 Mira Brancu: So we often talk about boundary setting and leading with authenticity and integrity as ways to be proactive in creating healthier work cultures.
00:01:29.980 --> 00:01:33.570 Mira Brancu: But what is the deeper reason behind this?
00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:40.170 Mira Brancu: And how can we apply the intersection of trauma-informed practices.
00:01:40.250 --> 00:01:46.020 Mira Brancu: leadership and organizational health to ultimately shape a more human-centered world.
00:01:46.230 --> 00:01:50.100 Mira Brancu: In this episode our guest, Laura Phoenix, will help us explore this
00:01:50.290 --> 00:01:56.720 Mira Brancu: Laura Phoenix is the founder of warrior Pose Yoga, and healing based in Durham North Carolina.
00:01:56.790 --> 00:02:07.589 Mira Brancu: She has helped thousands of people of all shapes, races, and genders discover new ways of feeling, better, safer, and more able to grow alongside the trauma that they carry.
00:02:07.790 --> 00:02:11.590 Mira Brancu: Laura is a somatic, experiencing practitioner, Sep
00:02:11.780 --> 00:02:15.289 Mira Brancu: certified Yoga teacher and a healing professional.
00:02:15.390 --> 00:02:24.850 Mira Brancu: In addition to her deep professional experience, Laura is also an abuse and trauma survivor who trusts in healing yoga and bodywork to guide herself forward.
00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:35.679 Mira Brancu: She describes herself as a Cis queer, white, able-bodied, neurodivergent, human, honored to hold space and learn from the diverse perspectives of the folks that she serves
00:02:36.610 --> 00:02:45.069 Mira Brancu: beyond healing work. Laura can also be found running early early in the morning earlier than I could possibly imagine, just to walk
00:02:45.620 --> 00:03:00.868 Mira Brancu: planting in her garden, which I've tried, and I've got a brown thumb and enjoying game nights which I can't do, because I'm too competitive, so she's a way better person than me. So Laura, welcome to the show.
00:03:02.310 --> 00:03:13.191 Mira Brancu: Thank you very much as as I lose my crap over here a better person because I game nights. That's a new one on me.
00:03:13.610 --> 00:03:16.759 Mira Brancu: Well, let's talk about your affinity for game nights.
00:03:16.760 --> 00:03:17.270 Laura Phoenix (she/they): What?
00:03:17.270 --> 00:03:22.540 Mira Brancu: What does an ideal game night look like for you? And what are your favorite types of games.
00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:40.329 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So, you know, I actually started playing games and doing game nights because of my own perceived inability to fun. And I was like, how do people fun? I guess they play games so so that like
00:03:40.370 --> 00:04:05.415 Laura Phoenix (she/they): that, that is how I started doing it. I am never particularly big on the strategy games where I have to like, think a lot about how to create some imaginary world where I have to like do some complicated thing, because that's that's just not that fun. I'm a little bit bigger on the the kind of getting to know you games I love. My. The only game I actually own is Esther Perel's game. And I've also recently really enjoyed queer agenda.
00:04:06.290 --> 00:04:12.229 Mira Brancu: Those sound good. Yeah, I do appreciate the the get to know you connection games for sure. In fact.
00:04:12.260 --> 00:04:16.859 Mira Brancu: right here for a long time I was using this delvedeck.
00:04:17.529 --> 00:04:18.449 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Which, like you.
00:04:18.450 --> 00:04:27.149 Mira Brancu: Just basically like, pull a card, ask each other, here's 1, what product do you miss? That is no longer being sold.
00:04:27.710 --> 00:04:29.239 Laura Phoenix (she/they): That was the 1st card out.
00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:32.125 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Remember the pens from the nineties.
00:04:32.530 --> 00:04:36.530 Mira Brancu: Pens from the nineties, ones with the different colors that you.
00:04:36.530 --> 00:04:42.439 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah, it felt very, very cool to have it. It was like, Oh, I can make it red. I can make it pink. I could make it black.
00:04:42.780 --> 00:04:46.480 Mira Brancu: Those are pretty awesome. I agree anymore.
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:51.190 Mira Brancu: Yeah, my favorite product, that's no longer around. And it was around, for like a blip.
00:04:51.460 --> 00:04:57.230 Mira Brancu: it was called Poke black, and it was coffee and Coca-cola.
00:04:57.490 --> 00:04:59.380 Laura Phoenix (she/they): What's so good?
00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:04.900 Mira Brancu: And nobody liked it but apparently me, because they removed it from the shelves very quickly.
00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:09.854 Laura Phoenix (she/they): How tragic you have to make your own. Now.
00:05:10.370 --> 00:05:12.240 Mira Brancu: All right. Well, I feel better now. We just had our own.
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:12.809 Laura Phoenix (she/they): All right.
00:05:12.810 --> 00:05:14.386 Mira Brancu: For like 5 seconds.
00:05:15.890 --> 00:05:22.140 Mira Brancu: Alright. So Laura and I. The.
00:05:22.270 --> 00:05:38.959 Mira Brancu: We're comfortable with each other because we we've already known each other. Okay, let's just sort of establish that we met through a local women's entrepreneurship community. Unfortunately, it no longer exists. But we ended up having lunch together. About a month ago to reconnect and
00:05:39.385 --> 00:05:44.130 Mira Brancu: as I always know when I talk to Laura, we're gonna go deep.
00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:50.450 Mira Brancu: So we did go exceptionally deep into a good conversation. Which you know.
00:05:50.610 --> 00:05:57.459 Mira Brancu: was, of course, very enjoyable for an introvert to have like an actual, real deep conversation. So thank you, Laura
00:05:57.774 --> 00:06:02.330 Mira Brancu: and when we got into it we started talking about like the intersection of our interests.
00:06:02.350 --> 00:06:03.025 Mira Brancu: And
00:06:03.780 --> 00:06:20.979 Mira Brancu: That's how like we started talking about her, trauma, informed Yoga. That's my label. She might call it differently. That's kind of my label on it. Somatic healing work, and how that connects with the experiences of leaders who hold marginalized identities and have experienced trauma. Those are the
00:06:21.010 --> 00:06:29.009 Mira Brancu: sort of like connections that we made in terms of our own interests and generational trauma which she's sort of interested in and
00:06:29.460 --> 00:06:39.479 Mira Brancu: how many of us might not know that we might be carrying trauma around, and that our body may be telling us, or even screaming at us that something is off.
00:06:39.580 --> 00:06:45.920 Mira Brancu: But we don't often pay attention, especially people who are hyperachievers.
00:06:46.080 --> 00:06:59.100 Mira Brancu: They're not going to pay attention as closely. And that's a lot of the people who listen to this right? They're not going to pay as close attention. And sometimes we've done such a great job of disconnecting our feelings from our body.
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:03.180 Mira Brancu: And so Laura and I are going to be exploring.
00:07:03.430 --> 00:07:06.479 Mira Brancu: What does this have to do with leadership and organizational health.
00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:12.289 Mira Brancu: He's going to convince you everything, right, everything.
00:07:12.900 --> 00:07:16.929 Mira Brancu: everything. So let's start with the basics. Many of our listeners are
00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:35.439 Mira Brancu: kind of business types, petty types, overachieving types like academics, researchers, stem and tech. So when we use words like somatic and healing, they might feel like skeptical, they might be like, Oh, this is so fruitful, or woo, or whatever. So let's just start with like definitions. Right?
00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:42.769 Mira Brancu: How do you? How do you define healing work, somatic work? And Yoga in a way that connects these dots.
00:07:43.940 --> 00:08:13.750 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Sure. So somatic, basically just means of the body derives from Greek don't need to necessarily get into it. But that whole umbrella covers a lot of a lot of ground, including the 2 modalities that I work with. Emdr. Which I do not work with, and a bunch of other stuff that we don't necessarily need to get into for these purposes. What I think is is one of the best dots to connect, I suppose, is, if you think in terms of how your brain
00:08:13.820 --> 00:08:19.580 Laura Phoenix (she/they): functions, your brain and your nervous systems, and what parts work the fastest.
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:28.356 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Your amygdala, which is like hidden in the middle of the brain and is the part that's responsible to slightly oversimplify for
00:08:28.760 --> 00:08:36.229 Laura Phoenix (she/they): it's it's responsible for threat response. It's responsible for emotional valence. And it's responsible for survival.
00:08:37.100 --> 00:08:42.059 Laura Phoenix (she/they): That's the part that's fastest that like fires first, st so to speak.
00:08:42.090 --> 00:08:53.060 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And if that part has been hijacked by a survival response, whether it's literally happening in the moment you're being chased by a bear, or whether you've got unresolved trauma, you had a
00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:58.820 Laura Phoenix (she/they): difficult childhood. You are holding a marginalized identity in a world that doesn't see you as equal
00:08:59.170 --> 00:09:01.729 Laura Phoenix (she/they): or other various reasons.
00:09:01.930 --> 00:09:06.790 Laura Phoenix (she/they): If that part of your brain is on fire, so to speak.
00:09:06.820 --> 00:09:09.080 Laura Phoenix (she/they): you're gonna have a harder time
00:09:09.090 --> 00:09:20.150 Laura Phoenix (she/they): doing your best complex thinking you might be able to bang it out. You might be able to to be productive and like make things happen, but you're not at your best.
00:09:20.660 --> 00:09:31.020 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and it's burning resources physiologically at a at a much higher rate than than you would if you were if you were able to to regulate
00:09:31.490 --> 00:09:32.720 Laura Phoenix (she/they): easier
00:09:32.730 --> 00:10:01.470 Laura Phoenix (she/they): is kind of my, my basic bottom line for for like, why? Why, we work somatically, like we're working closer to those those possibly on fire brain parts than when we engage in cognitive work which has its place to. I'm not. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong or not helpful. I'm just pointing out that especially for for the earliest and deepest traumas engaging closer to to what's actually
00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:03.239 Laura Phoenix (she/they): lighting up, so to speak.
00:10:03.730 --> 00:10:05.610 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Can have profound impact.
00:10:06.020 --> 00:10:13.349 Mira Brancu: Yeah, that makes so much sense. I mean, let's let's think about this right, if you're in a leadership position
00:10:13.800 --> 00:10:18.603 Mira Brancu: and someone calls you out on
00:10:19.870 --> 00:10:23.209 Mira Brancu: you know, causing harm or
00:10:23.902 --> 00:10:31.740 Mira Brancu: hurting somebody's, you know. Feelings or doing wrong, whatever that is.
00:10:33.020 --> 00:10:41.319 Mira Brancu: Our 1st response is that amygdala protection response. Right? We. We get defensive.
00:10:41.370 --> 00:10:42.830 Mira Brancu: We get anxious.
00:10:42.950 --> 00:10:49.090 Mira Brancu: At least, let's those of us who are conscientious get upset, you know about that.
00:10:50.510 --> 00:11:06.551 Mira Brancu: and we might be sweating. We might worry about. How are they going to perceive me now, or am I safe? Are they going to take me down like these are all the kinds of things that leaders worry about reputation, all of this stuff. And
00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:12.189 Mira Brancu: you know the as you're you're talking about this.
00:11:12.819 --> 00:11:17.009 Mira Brancu: It's it makes so much sense when you said like, it's the
00:11:17.310 --> 00:11:19.480 Mira Brancu: it's the part of our brain that
00:11:19.670 --> 00:11:30.710 Mira Brancu: reacts the fastest. Because if you're in survival mode right, like the most important thing that this brain has started us out with is 1st protect ourselves from harm.
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:41.100 Mira Brancu: And even though we're not being chased by saber tooth tigers anymore. It. Still, it doesn't matter. We've manufactured ways to feel
00:11:41.433 --> 00:11:48.190 Mira Brancu: the same way in order to protect ourselves as humans. It just makes perfect sense that that is the fastest to respond. And
00:11:48.470 --> 00:11:53.499 Mira Brancu: if that piece is hijacked it's so much harder to respond cognitively like
00:11:53.610 --> 00:11:56.329 Mira Brancu: you. You can imagine like how you feel like
00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:03.639 Mira Brancu: tunnel vision, hard to concentrate, hard to focus, can't decide. You know all of these things. So
00:12:04.391 --> 00:12:07.049 Mira Brancu: getting your amygdala back to
00:12:07.070 --> 00:12:19.729 Mira Brancu: like a stable place makes sense before you can use your frontal lobe to make the decision right. All of that makes perfect sense to focus on what's happening with your body in those situations.
00:12:20.330 --> 00:12:33.666 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And it's it can be, especially for those of us who who have developed to be like, I don't wanna shame anyone. This isn't necessarily a judgment. I I actually myself can relate to being overly reliant on, on
00:12:34.170 --> 00:12:46.999 Laura Phoenix (she/they): cognitive thought, meaning making like, and and to believe myself rational when, in fact, I was really hijacked in my past like that's that's relevant, and I. So so it can be really hard work
00:12:47.130 --> 00:12:52.709 Laura Phoenix (she/they): to learn the skill of of slowing down and being with oneself and be able to notice, like
00:12:52.870 --> 00:12:56.670 Laura Phoenix (she/they): physiology, is going haywire. What do we need to settle?
00:12:56.870 --> 00:13:02.569 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And that ends up being deeply important work, so that those those fast brain parts
00:13:02.640 --> 00:13:11.050 Laura Phoenix (she/they): don't don't get so so ramped up and so out of control so fast. And we're we're more in touch with our ability to connect.
00:13:11.630 --> 00:13:18.590 Mira Brancu: Yeah. I would love to hear about kind of your own experiences
00:13:18.650 --> 00:13:20.679 Mira Brancu: when we come back from the ad break.
00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:25.740 Mira Brancu: But before we get to the ad break, which is in in just a minute. I want to sort of
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:30.899 Mira Brancu: highlight one other thing that you mentioned, which is, it's burning resources.
00:13:31.450 --> 00:13:37.690 Mira Brancu: Tell us a little bit about like what what is happening, and why does? Why is that part important that it's burning resources.
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:56.899 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah, so it because it makes us it. When we're working harder. We're pumping more cortisol into our into our bodies. Our heart rates are increasing, blood pressure goes up, respiration gets less deep, like all of these physiological markers of stress.
00:13:57.713 --> 00:13:59.120 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Deplete us.
00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:05.530 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And that's not so much when it's happening, you know, in, you know, over a 5 min increment. But when we are spending our whole days
00:14:05.560 --> 00:14:13.790 Laura Phoenix (she/they): in survival mode, the I mean, if you look at like the the aces pyramid which takes you from like
00:14:14.260 --> 00:14:28.019 Laura Phoenix (she/they): generational trauma through local context, to family of origin, and what that environment is like like the next few rungs are what happens when that doesn't get interrupted. And they're pretty gnarly for like
00:14:28.030 --> 00:14:31.500 Laura Phoenix (she/they): behavioral health and literal physical health.
00:14:32.845 --> 00:14:36.050 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So rewiring those
00:14:36.290 --> 00:14:42.639 Laura Phoenix (she/they): those reactions, so to speak. Obviously, no actual wires involved ends up being really important for our well-being.
00:14:43.810 --> 00:14:54.129 Mira Brancu: A 100%. Yeah, when I was doing research with post-traumatic stress disorder in veterans. One of the things that we were looking at is how.
00:14:54.150 --> 00:15:04.700 Mira Brancu: if you have long-term high level cortisol constantly in your system, so like a constant stress response or trauma response and exposure.
00:15:05.260 --> 00:15:08.310 Mira Brancu: it does cause physiological changes.
00:15:08.450 --> 00:15:37.419 Mira Brancu: and it can produce metabolic changes and lead to, you know, even diabetes, cardiovascular disease, inflammatory disorders, autoimmune disorders, all of that is connected. Every single one of these things are connected, mind, body, right? So it's really so critical for us to recognize. And it's hard. It's hard. So when we come back from the ad break. Let's talk a little bit more about
00:15:37.690 --> 00:16:02.700 Mira Brancu: your own journey. How you got to this this place of understanding for yourself, and then eventually you know how you help your own clients. So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Laura Phoenix. We air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern. If you are here right now, when we're live streaming, you can ask us questions, and we could answer right back.
00:16:02.850 --> 00:16:09.129 Mira Brancu: We're on Linkedin and at youtube@talkradio.nyc. And we'll be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:18:22.050 --> 00:18:28.609 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Braku and our guest today, Laura Phoenix and both of us.
00:18:28.670 --> 00:18:31.989 Mira Brancu: if you're listening later have been bopping to the mute.
00:18:33.750 --> 00:18:34.956 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Aggressively popping.
00:18:35.560 --> 00:18:38.088 Laura Phoenix (she/they): We're using ourselves here all right.
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:44.462 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Now. Okay, now, it's hard to transition into this very serious next question I have, after we've been bopping.
00:18:45.014 --> 00:18:45.279 Laura Phoenix (she/they): But.
00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:45.800 Mira Brancu: But
00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:59.849 Mira Brancu: You did mention towards the end of the last section, about being, you know, hijacked in your past right, and how this has, you know, affected you as well. You shared very openly, and you do share very openly being
00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:22.110 Mira Brancu: and abuse and trauma survivor, and how you do practice what you preach, and that this work has helped you as well, so I suspect in many ways it probably helps you be better attuned and understand. Your clients have empathy. I'm wondering if you're willing to share a little bit about how this
00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:28.119 Mira Brancu: you know trauma-informed work has helped you, and how it's helped shape how you think about how you work with others.
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:36.769 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Sure. Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine doing this work. If if I hadn't been through some kind of journey myself it it doesn't feel like I'd be
00:19:36.950 --> 00:19:42.270 Laura Phoenix (she/they): such an effective partner in in holding space and
00:19:42.619 --> 00:20:03.060 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and helping people learn. So so yeah, I. And and when I you know, I'm gonna say, I used to get hijacked a whole hell of a lot more frequently. But I'm also not going to sit here and tell you that it never happens now, I mean, this world around us is Hella chaotic and Hella stressful. And I just just for like
00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:10.279 Laura Phoenix (she/they): transparency and and and like showing up as a real human being. I'm gonna freely admit that
00:20:10.360 --> 00:20:16.640 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I spent the the morning after election day like pretty hijacked.
00:20:17.320 --> 00:20:18.030 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:20:18.656 --> 00:20:28.669 Laura Phoenix (she/they): The difference for me between then and now is that now I am able to not shame myself for it. Usually
00:20:28.850 --> 00:20:36.079 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I'm able to not override my very active nervous system that has things to say
00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:42.580 Laura Phoenix (she/they): to keep me safe and well. And and I'm able to take more compassionate care of me.
00:20:42.630 --> 00:20:45.000 Mira Brancu: And and that that gives me.
00:20:45.560 --> 00:20:51.919 Laura Phoenix (she/they): That gives me the capacity to take. Take better, more skillful care of the folks around me, too.
00:20:52.710 --> 00:20:53.310 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:20:53.310 --> 00:21:03.520 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And I think I think that one of the most important things that I've learned to do is connect with all the parts of myself, and be able to hold them with a lot more tenderness.
00:21:03.590 --> 00:21:07.100 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Then our culture encourages us to.
00:21:09.010 --> 00:21:20.049 Mira Brancu: Wow! That is probably something we all wish that we could do better, right, and in certain cases better than others.
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:24.870 Mira Brancu: How how did you get to that point, what does it take.
00:21:26.280 --> 00:21:44.590 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I think some of it is, is skillful modeling, and I think that that happens in any good therapeutic relationship, whether it's with, you know, talk therapist, counselor, somatic, experiencing practitioner, I mean yoga teacher like friend. It doesn't even have to be a professional
00:21:45.165 --> 00:21:48.020 Laura Phoenix (she/they): but when when we in our
00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:52.010 Laura Phoenix (she/they): our current, and especially in our early lives.
00:21:53.200 --> 00:22:01.629 Laura Phoenix (she/they): have had the kind of modeling that we're supposed to marginalize parts of ourselves, that some parts of us are wrong, and shameful and unacceptable.
00:22:01.630 --> 00:22:01.990 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:22:02.387 --> 00:22:04.770 Laura Phoenix (she/they): We tend to repeat that pattern.
00:22:04.860 --> 00:22:08.549 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I know I did and a lot of the folks I see
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:18.939 Laura Phoenix (she/they): still do that, and that's that's 1 of the things that's that's happening when when we do this work of of turning toward ourselves with with somebody holding space
00:22:19.190 --> 00:22:26.589 Laura Phoenix (she/they): is is start to notice the parts of us that aren't welcome. And the parts of us
00:22:26.840 --> 00:22:28.880 Laura Phoenix (she/they): that are hard to look at
00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:32.310 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and and hold those parts with more care.
00:22:34.180 --> 00:22:41.860 Mira Brancu: And would you say that it requires unlearning.
00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:47.719 Mira Brancu: letting go, or doing something different, or replacing all of the above.
00:22:50.390 --> 00:23:07.319 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Combination of the above. For sure, right? I think that a a 1st really important step is is noticing when I I tell this story sometimes. When I when I think back to one of my earliest somatic, experiencing
00:23:07.350 --> 00:23:15.770 Laura Phoenix (she/they): thingies, sessions, times when someone is holding space for me, I remember that I'd had a pretty stressful morning.
00:23:16.123 --> 00:23:23.459 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I can remember the circumstances. It was like my car wouldn't start. It was, you know, chaotic and stressful, but not like
00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:35.070 Laura Phoenix (she/they): big problem and that had that had stressed me out. And I had made my way and shown up anyway. And I can remember sitting across from someone
00:23:35.290 --> 00:23:43.930 Laura Phoenix (she/they): who watched my body language. I can't remember what they asked me, but I remember really vividly being asked, like.
00:23:44.810 --> 00:23:50.820 Laura Phoenix (she/they): What what's your experience in this moment, like and inside it was like chaos.
00:23:51.030 --> 00:23:56.919 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and having them reflect back to me that it kind of felt like I wasn't so sure the chair was going to hold me.
00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:01.740 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and in a way that was true.
00:24:04.070 --> 00:24:10.379 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Because when your experience of life has been that it doesn't support you. Well.
00:24:11.060 --> 00:24:20.469 Laura Phoenix (she/they): that's in the physiology, and that was kind of an undercurrent that I hadn't necessarily looked very closely at until it was pointed out. But then, seeing it.
00:24:21.150 --> 00:24:34.639 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I knew something new about myself, and it wasn't just in the in the thinking it was in the feeling into and like what I had, what I had space to be with. And that's that's the kind of thing that I'm
00:24:34.650 --> 00:24:40.990 Laura Phoenix (she/they): pretty accustomed to doing every day like who who shows up and
00:24:43.150 --> 00:24:46.710 Laura Phoenix (she/they): tells me a really uncomfortable, painful truth
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:52.490 Laura Phoenix (she/they): about what what their life feels like for them today, and then dismisses it with. But it's okay.
00:24:53.310 --> 00:25:01.050 Laura Phoenix (she/they): you know, or or who begins to tear up when
00:25:01.360 --> 00:25:04.880 Laura Phoenix (she/they): they notice something that's happened, and then
00:25:05.550 --> 00:25:09.009 Laura Phoenix (she/they): quickly bites their lip and pushes it down.
00:25:09.947 --> 00:25:15.176 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So so noticing is a really important 1st step and then
00:25:16.340 --> 00:25:26.970 Laura Phoenix (she/they): being able to expand our attention to also notice, like what's happening. That's supportive. There's that painful piece. There's our habitual reaction. There's kind of the well worn rut
00:25:27.130 --> 00:25:38.859 Laura Phoenix (she/they): of the the way we've learned to to be with ourselves. And then and then can we open and also notice, like, what's getting us through this moment. Sometimes it's the person sitting across from us.
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:46.800 Laura Phoenix (she/they): sometimes, sometimes, if we, if we're able to retrain ourselves to the very mundane action of like, can we take in the room
00:25:47.280 --> 00:25:52.239 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and notice that there's that. What's happening right now is okay enough.
00:25:53.820 --> 00:25:54.420 Mira Brancu: Hmm!
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:58.009 Mira Brancu: And then expands the possibility for being with ourselves more fully.
00:25:59.620 --> 00:26:03.240 Mira Brancu: One thing that's coming up for me as you're describing this is.
00:26:03.650 --> 00:26:06.280 Mira Brancu: you know. Often in like talk therapy.
00:26:06.820 --> 00:26:10.790 Mira Brancu: we're asked, how do you feel? And there's a list of words we can choose from
00:26:11.090 --> 00:26:17.900 Mira Brancu: happy, sad pain, you know. And on
00:26:19.060 --> 00:26:23.650 Mira Brancu: the part of that that is really helpful is that some people can can't even
00:26:23.930 --> 00:26:31.610 Mira Brancu: recognize their feelings, and that is the noticing right. But sometimes you're still
00:26:31.730 --> 00:26:34.990 Mira Brancu: in your head when you describe the words, you know
00:26:34.990 --> 00:26:38.899 Mira Brancu: that's a word, you know I feel mad, right? And so
00:26:39.020 --> 00:26:51.670 Mira Brancu: what you're describing here is like the literal sensation right now, which has a deeper meaning, then
00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:54.599 Mira Brancu: sort of label to the emotion.
00:26:55.180 --> 00:27:02.409 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah. And sometimes for for some people it's more easy. It's a little easier to access, not always, not for everyone, but right, like.
00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:13.879 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I have to kind of think about it. If I've if I've never had someone connect the dots for me that this explosive feeling paired with jaw clenching, and you know, arms getting tense is
00:27:13.950 --> 00:27:30.569 Laura Phoenix (she/they): rage or anger right like that. That's that's a few. That's a few cognitive steps that I might not be able to make. But if if I'm sitting with someone who is doing those behaviors and I ask like, can you feel your arms?
00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:34.330 Laura Phoenix (she/they): They start connecting those dots a little faster. Oftentimes.
00:27:34.910 --> 00:27:41.450 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And you know.
00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:50.030 Mira Brancu: I think noticing is so critical because so many of us shut down.
00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:52.750 Mira Brancu: When we're under high stress.
00:27:53.030 --> 00:28:00.789 Mira Brancu: And you know, I've worked with leaders who didn't realize
00:28:01.150 --> 00:28:03.270 Mira Brancu: they were shutting down and shutting out
00:28:03.580 --> 00:28:09.149 Mira Brancu: other people or shutting down and shutting down other people in addition, in order to shut out the
00:28:09.850 --> 00:28:14.409 Mira Brancu: sort of like overwhelm of emotions and reactions. And
00:28:14.873 --> 00:28:18.633 Mira Brancu: if you do that as an employee, you know.
00:28:19.340 --> 00:28:27.729 Mira Brancu: most of the time you have people around you. You have your manager. They're like, are you, you know, checking in, are you okay? etc, etc. But if you do that in a leadership role.
00:28:27.950 --> 00:28:35.619 Mira Brancu: the power that you have in that role can be catastrophic.
00:28:36.997 --> 00:28:40.902 Mira Brancu: other people experiencing your shutdown because it's
00:28:41.860 --> 00:28:45.900 Mira Brancu: It feels more threatening and intimidating to them for you to do that to them.
00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:46.820 Mira Brancu: And
00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:52.090 Mira Brancu: It can be a derailer, you know, for your leadership trajectory.
00:28:52.150 --> 00:28:54.759 Mira Brancu: And so it's
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:00.179 Mira Brancu: and it has such a the weight of your words. But the weight of your actions has
00:29:00.260 --> 00:29:02.620 Mira Brancu: such a massive ripple effect
00:29:02.730 --> 00:29:09.310 Mira Brancu: in an organization and with your teams that it it's critical that people in leadership develop
00:29:09.390 --> 00:29:14.120 Mira Brancu: the skill to catch themselves, to notice Super early
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.339 Mira Brancu: as quickly as possible, because they don't have the luxury
00:29:17.710 --> 00:29:20.889 Mira Brancu: of like spending a week thinking about it right.
00:29:20.890 --> 00:29:22.690 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah, right.
00:29:24.360 --> 00:29:26.749 Mira Brancu: So we're reaching an ad break
00:29:27.030 --> 00:29:30.450 Mira Brancu: when we come back. I would love to
00:29:30.490 --> 00:29:33.324 Mira Brancu: talk through a little bit more about
00:29:34.280 --> 00:29:39.420 Mira Brancu: You know what leaders can do when
00:29:39.610 --> 00:29:41.280 Mira Brancu: their own stuff is coming up
00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:48.020 Mira Brancu: and how they can use the techniques that you talk about to start
00:29:48.900 --> 00:30:02.970 Mira Brancu: kind of getting back online or reconnecting with their bodies in order to be more effective. So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Laura Phoenix, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:32:06.700 --> 00:32:12.849 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Laura Phoenix.
00:32:13.288 --> 00:32:18.450 Mira Brancu: It's kind of like a juxtaposition for us to be like listening to this
00:32:18.620 --> 00:32:30.630 Mira Brancu: fun. Fast paced music, bopping along and then talking at a really deep level about painful traumatic experiences. We'll just name it, we'll we'll just embrace it.
00:32:31.930 --> 00:32:38.990 Mira Brancu: okay. So talking about, you know, leaders and leadership
00:32:39.945 --> 00:32:43.789 Mira Brancu: and and especially like, I work with a lot of women in leadership.
00:32:43.840 --> 00:32:47.679 Mira Brancu: a lot of folks with additional marginalized identities.
00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:50.470 Mira Brancu: And there's a real challenge.
00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:55.945 Mira Brancu: That I'm constantly thinking about about
00:32:56.770 --> 00:32:58.729 Mira Brancu: how they need to to show up.
00:32:59.180 --> 00:33:06.620 Mira Brancu: and they need to be fully engaged, and they're asked to be vulnerable, and they're asked to be open, and they're asked to be authentic, and
00:33:06.870 --> 00:33:10.740 Mira Brancu: they might have had a lot of heavy stuff that they're carrying around with them.
00:33:10.770 --> 00:33:17.540 Mira Brancu: and lots of messages about authenticity and what it means to be a leader, and
00:33:17.610 --> 00:33:19.910 Mira Brancu: etc, etc.
00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:25.710 Mira Brancu: And I'm curious just to hear what your thoughts are on, how
00:33:25.870 --> 00:33:31.820 Mira Brancu: they can both sort of take care of themselves while they're in a they're in a position of trying to also take care of
00:33:31.940 --> 00:33:37.260 Mira Brancu: others in an organization and still find that balance.
00:33:39.353 --> 00:33:40.320 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Pardon me.
00:33:41.146 --> 00:33:43.769 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah, I think that
00:33:43.820 --> 00:34:04.490 Laura Phoenix (she/they): especially women in our culture. And I think we talked about this before that kind of the in some in in many ways, the the more marginalized identity that we hold, the more the more you're expected to over function. And we were talking earlier about that that high cost of to the nervous system of functioning with
00:34:04.630 --> 00:34:13.640 Laura Phoenix (she/they): high stress and and or unresolved trauma and or current trauma, which may very well be the case, like the more
00:34:13.650 --> 00:34:16.620 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the more marginalized identities a leader holds.
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.680 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the more likely there's that we're still getting
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:33.270 Laura Phoenix (she/they): that incoming message from the culture that some parts of us are not acceptable, so it really feels like a double bind to me to be told like, Show up, be authentic, be vulnerable, and also, not all parts of yourself are welcome here.
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:34.670 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:34:34.929 --> 00:34:38.264 Laura Phoenix (she/they): That's that. Just just saying it.
00:34:41.469 --> 00:34:43.479 Laura Phoenix (she/they): It's making me have a bunch of feelings about it.
00:34:44.690 --> 00:34:45.690 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:34:45.929 --> 00:34:46.440 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And
00:34:46.449 --> 00:34:52.729 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and and I think that one of the most important things that someone who's in that position needs
00:34:52.849 --> 00:34:54.319 Laura Phoenix (she/they): is care.
00:34:54.819 --> 00:34:56.979 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And if
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:12.049 Laura Phoenix (she/they): you know, if if a person who's on the receiving end of a bunch of crap, cultural messaging and a lot a high level of expectation doesn't have, doesn't yet have the capacity to to bring that care to themselves or doesn't have
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:18.579 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the the kind of supportive team around them. And I don't necessarily mean work team.
00:35:19.149 --> 00:35:25.509 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Pardon me. But you know a a stable enough relationship like
00:35:26.229 --> 00:35:36.689 Laura Phoenix (she/they): skilled enough friendship, some of those those things that we hope to be able to rely on in our communities. I think that's when it's really important to enlist some kind of help.
00:35:37.636 --> 00:35:39.089 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So that
00:35:39.489 --> 00:35:49.299 Laura Phoenix (she/they): so that you're able to get the care you deserve. So that so that you're not so much at the mercy of all of the systems of harm that exist in this culture and
00:35:49.903 --> 00:35:59.636 Laura Phoenix (she/they): tremendous pressure in your role like and having to over function, especially if there's if there's some unhealed trauma coming up.
00:36:00.389 --> 00:36:03.789 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I think that that help is really important.
00:36:04.730 --> 00:36:12.700 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And you know, there's actually more and more research coming out that
00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:23.289 Mira Brancu: when you hold in and hold back how you feel, especially when you're angry.
00:36:26.120 --> 00:36:33.480 Mira Brancu: Frustrated, you know, with resentful right about the the things that have been placed on you.
00:36:36.010 --> 00:36:45.089 Mira Brancu: There's some research that that even that leads to some autoimmune conditions and inflammatory conditions, and especially
00:36:46.102 --> 00:36:54.090 Mira Brancu: higher in women, higher rates in women, because they're holding back a whole lot more and right.
00:36:54.090 --> 00:36:57.422 Laura Phoenix (she/they): It's it's that cost high cost of doing business again. Right? Yeah.
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.610 Mira Brancu: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:36:59.650 --> 00:37:00.279 Mira Brancu: So
00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:10.199 Mira Brancu: Now, what does this have to do with yoga? Tell us about that? Tell me more.
00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:13.620 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So
00:37:13.870 --> 00:37:23.849 Laura Phoenix (she/they): that's 1 of a couple of interventions I use. We mostly like I haven't labeled it per se. But when I'm talking about sitting with people, one on one. I'm generally talking about somatic experiencing work.
00:37:24.380 --> 00:37:30.130 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and the Yoga intervention I do is actually an evidence-based intervention
00:37:30.310 --> 00:37:57.349 Laura Phoenix (she/they): for the treatment of complex trauma. If I was going to nerd out at length about it, I would tell you all about the super cool studies that the Atlanta Va. Did, comparing it against cognitive processing therapy as a control which is notable, since that is kind of a gold standard in evidence-based intervention. And also since we've we've tossed around, how the cognitive parts of the brain are slower and
00:37:57.650 --> 00:37:59.472 Laura Phoenix (she/they): right. Whole whole
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:03.309 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Whole bunch of stuff there about about the the
00:38:03.640 --> 00:38:15.489 Laura Phoenix (she/they): interest of of comparing those 2. But what I like to geek out about a lot is that the the completion rate? When they compared these 2 groups was higher for the Yoga group.
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:23.500 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and also the symptom reduction for the Yoga group occurred earlier mid intervention for the Yoga group
00:38:23.520 --> 00:38:33.609 Laura Phoenix (she/they): compared to 2 weeks post intervention for the. And yeah, yeah, no. I remember that. Right? I had to think about it for a second 2 weeks. Post intervention for the cognitive processing group.
00:38:34.830 --> 00:38:40.859 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So those are a couple of really cool pieces of news about about how effective that is.
00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:54.690 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And 1 1 thing that that can be really cool for some people. Right? It's it's like a a personal personal preference, and where you're coming from sort of thing. But especially in the Yoga intervention.
00:38:54.940 --> 00:39:04.910 Laura Phoenix (she/they): it's a lot less about looking directly at what's going on, and a lot more about
00:39:04.950 --> 00:39:10.500 Laura Phoenix (she/they): reinforcing choice. There are a bunch of ways that if I was teaching a Yoga class.
00:39:11.230 --> 00:39:32.660 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I could hold the space and a lot of things I could prioritize. Like, you know, lots of listeners have probably been to a Yoga class where the teacher might have set such priorities as, like cool playlists. None of these are wrong, by the way, like cool playlist, peak pose strengthening apart, stretching apart. you know, like
00:39:32.790 --> 00:39:35.379 Laura Phoenix (she/they): lots of the the possibilities are endless
00:39:35.420 --> 00:39:47.160 Laura Phoenix (she/they): when I'm holding this space, the things that we are practicing are reinforcing choice. So every time I suggest a thing that my folks might do with their bodies.
00:39:47.290 --> 00:39:53.669 Laura Phoenix (she/they): It it's like, if you would like to. You might do this thing or that thing. You have a choice.
00:39:53.670 --> 00:39:54.480 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:39:55.700 --> 00:40:01.823 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And interoception, which is just a fancy word for felt sense.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:10.530 Laura Phoenix (she/they): you might do this thing that I'm suggesting, and if you try it, you might notice that something is happening in your shoulder.
00:40:10.540 --> 00:40:16.449 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Do you also feel something happening through your side? So we're practicing
00:40:16.490 --> 00:40:25.280 Laura Phoenix (she/they): doing doing some of those things that frankly trauma takes from us, exercising our agency and connecting with ourselves.
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:31.830 Mira Brancu: That is fascinating. So so interesting. I know we can.
00:40:31.830 --> 00:40:32.859 Mira Brancu: I love it.
00:40:32.860 --> 00:40:34.639 Mira Brancu: Okay, Laura, we can geek out. It's okay.
00:40:35.673 --> 00:40:37.740 Laura Phoenix (she/they): This is.
00:40:37.740 --> 00:40:39.160 Mira Brancu: I want to. I really.
00:40:39.160 --> 00:40:40.265 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Let me kick out right now.
00:40:40.940 --> 00:40:44.860 Mira Brancu: Absolutely reinforcing choice makes a lot of sense.
00:40:45.467 --> 00:40:52.180 Mira Brancu: The interoception of you know, connecting with what's happening inside your body makes perfect sense.
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.660 Mira Brancu: I don't want to get us off tangent too much, but like interoception, is also
00:41:00.030 --> 00:41:09.850 Mira Brancu: something that is is part of intervention for people with autism, especially people with more severe autism. You know, they have more trouble with interoception. So it's it's
00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:15.566 Mira Brancu: applicable to so many people's needs, right and
00:41:17.270 --> 00:41:22.380 Mira Brancu: and not just people with, you know, with trauma backgrounds. Including the fact that I feel like
00:41:22.824 --> 00:41:25.999 Mira Brancu: you. I think you could speak to this a little bit more.
00:41:26.405 --> 00:41:29.030 Mira Brancu: That over time. I feel like we've
00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:38.570 Mira Brancu: more and more disconnected to our bodies as we do so much online work. I don't know if you've had any thoughts on that, or what you're seeing in your own practice.
00:41:38.590 --> 00:41:42.480 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah, so many thoughts and feelings. I I think
00:41:42.830 --> 00:41:50.669 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I think I even I just noticed it in in my own day to day when I think about like over my own lifespan as kind of like a
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:54.770 Laura Phoenix (she/they): god. Am I like a middle aged adult? I guess I guess I'm a, because some of them
00:41:54.770 --> 00:41:57.049 Laura Phoenix (she/they): middle aged digital? Good God!
00:41:58.470 --> 00:42:00.950 Laura Phoenix (she/they): great! So like as a child.
00:42:01.190 --> 00:42:13.670 Laura Phoenix (she/they): if you were gonna connect someone you might be more likely for for me and my lived experience to be standing or sitting across from them, to be like doing a thing together, maybe to be on the phone and have access to a person's voice.
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:25.880 Laura Phoenix (she/they): whereas now so much of our into social interactions like, I actually talk about this with friends all the time, how how many steps there are to actually get a connection to a person. Often
00:42:26.450 --> 00:42:33.894 Laura Phoenix (she/they): there's like you text the friend, and check and see if they're available. And you might call them, or you might get together with them. And it's like,
00:42:35.750 --> 00:42:44.836 Laura Phoenix (she/they): yeah, like, what? What's that practicing? And I'm not. I'm not saying that we're wrong for living the cult and living in the culture that we live in. And you know,
00:42:45.270 --> 00:42:52.106 Laura Phoenix (she/they): cooperating with its norms, because that's kind of how we have to get by, but it also really
00:42:52.810 --> 00:42:53.990 Laura Phoenix (she/they): it, it.
00:42:54.330 --> 00:43:03.140 Laura Phoenix (she/they): It diminishes some of the possibilities for close connection that we actually need as human animals to
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:05.109 Laura Phoenix (she/they): to be. Well.
00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:16.620 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I think I I have like hypotheses that I I don't have any data for about what you know these these years coming out of pandemic stage.
00:43:18.100 --> 00:43:23.580 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Have have been like for people, but, like, I know, in my own habits and norms.
00:43:23.670 --> 00:43:28.039 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the the sense of of disconnection feels a bit more pronounced.
00:43:28.836 --> 00:43:31.760 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And I think that's a problem.
00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:36.200 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I mean, I definitely have noticed people craving.
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:45.130 Mira Brancu: getting back to connection. And I'm wondering, in the research that you did with like. Why the Yoga intervention
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:50.899 Mira Brancu: worked more quickly and reduce symptoms.
00:43:51.676 --> 00:43:52.950 Mira Brancu: More quickly.
00:43:53.360 --> 00:44:00.499 Mira Brancu: Is there any piece of that? Because it was in a group format, and there was some connection or
00:44:00.570 --> 00:44:04.330 Mira Brancu: more connection even with the instructor, if it was one on one.
00:44:05.230 --> 00:44:19.359 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So, to my knowledge, because this wasn't my study, but but one that was run through the Atlanta Va. And that's actually very interesting. One other very interesting point about that study is that it was done.
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:29.500 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I'm trying to remember the exact dates, and I can't, because I'm very bad, notoriously bad at remembering numbers and dates personally. But the timeframe
00:44:29.590 --> 00:44:32.580 Laura Phoenix (she/they): was early lockdown phase of the pandemic.
00:44:32.580 --> 00:44:33.790 Mira Brancu: Oh, interesting!
00:44:33.790 --> 00:44:38.039 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah. All the interventions went from being in person
00:44:38.310 --> 00:44:40.990 Laura Phoenix (she/they): to being on zoom, and it still worked.
00:44:40.990 --> 00:44:43.330 Mira Brancu: Wow! That's interesting.
00:44:43.890 --> 00:44:53.630 Mira Brancu: That's really interesting. I would love to hear what you make of that. We're reaching an ad break. So let's take the ad break first, st and I would love to know, like, what do you make of?
00:44:53.670 --> 00:45:00.619 Mira Brancu: You know the the research so far around, you know these kind of somatic interventions.
00:45:01.131 --> 00:45:13.069 Mira Brancu: And then, you know, we'll bring it back to kind of how to conceptualize that for very busy leaders who lead crazy, fast paced lives and what they can do right? So your
00:45:13.470 --> 00:45:20.820 Mira Brancu: listening to the hard skills or watching it with me right now. And Laura and we will be right back in just a moment.
00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:32.300 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today Laura Phoenix
00:47:32.520 --> 00:47:38.369 Mira Brancu: and Laura and I have been geeking out on the fascinating research that she found
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:43.689 Mira Brancu: about how this one Yoga intervention showed a lot of
00:47:43.700 --> 00:47:51.900 Mira Brancu: promise around, you know. Greater completion rates which that part doesn't surprise me. It can be very difficult.
00:47:52.527 --> 00:47:55.090 Mira Brancu: To stick with a
00:47:56.140 --> 00:47:59.779 Mira Brancu: protocol like cognitive processing therapy can be intense.
00:47:59.900 --> 00:48:08.920 Mira Brancu: and yoga in some ways feels more enveloping, I guess. And
00:48:09.010 --> 00:48:17.040 Mira Brancu: you know, especially when you describe like reinforcing choice and interoception like I could, I could imagine being able to stick to that
00:48:17.576 --> 00:48:21.393 Mira Brancu: a little bit longer, and then also, like the reduction in
00:48:21.940 --> 00:48:29.510 Mira Brancu: symptoms, is kind of amazing to me as well. Sooner so. Now moving it back to
00:48:32.150 --> 00:48:34.830 Mira Brancu: just rooting it in what I'm seeing.
00:48:35.683 --> 00:48:36.396 Mira Brancu: As
00:48:38.770 --> 00:48:46.911 Mira Brancu: sort of a a new workplace pandemic we can call it that or epidemic, at least in this country.
00:48:48.790 --> 00:48:53.480 Mira Brancu: I see a lot of people who are getting burned out faster. Stretch thin.
00:48:53.670 --> 00:49:01.060 Mira Brancu: exhausted. It's the the post Covid worn out, you know experience.
00:49:01.450 --> 00:49:05.490 Mira Brancu: And I see this with people in leadership, too.
00:49:05.770 --> 00:49:11.420 Mira Brancu: They're exhausted, too. They're stretched thin. Everybody's like wanting an out.
00:49:11.480 --> 00:49:14.660 Mira Brancu: but we don't all have it out. We don't all have that option.
00:49:14.900 --> 00:49:21.429 Mira Brancu: And so I'm just wondering can somatic work
00:49:22.040 --> 00:49:26.719 Mira Brancu: be something that they can add to their toolbox to help them?
00:49:26.890 --> 00:49:30.390 Mira Brancu: And if so, in what way like, how do you imagine it? Could?
00:49:30.580 --> 00:49:31.640 Mira Brancu: It could help.
00:49:33.160 --> 00:49:42.494 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Yeah, definitely, and I, I work with a lot of folks in high stress professions who are who are in leadership roles.
00:49:42.980 --> 00:49:57.169 Laura Phoenix (she/they): In fact, some of you know we it's it's kind of interesting like asking that around like, kind of immediately following us talking about how the intervention moved online. Some of the folks I see who who fit those
00:49:57.470 --> 00:50:02.950 Laura Phoenix (she/they): parameters in particular like, look, how do I make it,
00:50:03.570 --> 00:50:31.380 Laura Phoenix (she/they): If you'd asked me before the pandemic. If IA movement teacher and body worker, could move my profession online, I'd be like Nope, and I was wrong. Like, not only was I able to effectively move it online, just like the, you know, our friends at the the Atlanta Va. Did. But I've learned new skills in that time. I I like learned, and now help
00:50:31.570 --> 00:50:39.589 Laura Phoenix (she/they): help assist trainings for other trauma care professionals using touch skills.
00:50:39.740 --> 00:50:41.639 Mira Brancu: Or trauma. Recovery.
00:50:41.910 --> 00:50:48.189 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Touch skills like it's not the same. It's not literal, like hand to body touch.
00:50:49.060 --> 00:50:58.089 Laura Phoenix (she/they): but the way that we make contact even over this, this medium of of seeing and and feeling each other.
00:50:58.481 --> 00:51:16.670 Laura Phoenix (she/they): When we can do that like. It also makes a difference. I see a number of the the busiest professionals I see on Zoom, either because they are too far away to make it to me, and or because their schedules are so demanding that. That's how it works.
00:51:17.243 --> 00:51:19.659 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And it does still work.
00:51:20.950 --> 00:51:22.380 Mira Brancu: That's amazing. That's amazing.
00:51:22.380 --> 00:51:23.482 Laura Phoenix (she/they): It's real cool.
00:51:23.850 --> 00:51:28.020 Mira Brancu: Yeah, it's super cool. What do you think is happening
00:51:28.300 --> 00:51:30.319 Mira Brancu: for? For, like, what do you?
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:39.910 Mira Brancu: What are the sort of physiological changes that that create change in your understanding of it.
00:51:41.192 --> 00:51:43.609 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Access to felt sense of safety.
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:47.580 Mira Brancu: Whether whether or not I'm literally in a room with a person.
00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:52.999 Laura Phoenix (she/they): That's that's like the the bottom line. Most important thing
00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:59.409 Laura Phoenix (she/they): that I'm looking to reinforce, whether I'm using touch work in person or online.
00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:03.339 Laura Phoenix (she/they): whether I'm holding a space for a group
00:52:03.580 --> 00:52:12.100 Laura Phoenix (she/they): yoga practice or whether I'm I'm sitting with a person we might be like processing something. Using se.
00:52:12.450 --> 00:52:20.610 Laura Phoenix (she/they): it's really important for a nervous system that tends to loop into that activated state to
00:52:20.830 --> 00:52:23.670 Laura Phoenix (she/they): give it a like like help it learn an out
00:52:24.260 --> 00:52:33.400 Laura Phoenix (she/they): right? Does the thing happen, and then my heart rate races, my breathing gets shallow, my muscles get clenchy, and then
00:52:33.460 --> 00:52:38.009 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and then and then like there's there's the thing that ha! That always happens.
00:52:38.690 --> 00:52:49.570 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And then there's can we hold that? Can we notice that? And can we also find enough access to feel that something else is also happening, whether, again, that's like the mundane thing of
00:52:49.770 --> 00:52:54.079 Laura Phoenix (she/they): oh, in this room things are kind of okay
00:52:54.420 --> 00:53:01.410 Laura Phoenix (she/they): or you know, we're we're showing up to a Yoga class. And
00:53:01.630 --> 00:53:06.390 Laura Phoenix (she/they): like, Okay, you've got the thing whirring away in the background, whatever the stressor is.
00:53:06.580 --> 00:53:11.959 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And and then we move our bodies, we make some choices, and we learn over time
00:53:11.980 --> 00:53:19.399 Laura Phoenix (she/they): that we have that access to take. Take that high activation down to A, you know
00:53:20.150 --> 00:53:25.822 Laura Phoenix (she/they): home or whatever it is, it's not to get rid of it. We're not trying to. We're not trying to
00:53:26.660 --> 00:53:29.319 Laura Phoenix (she/they): put some parts of ourselves in a closet.
00:53:29.560 --> 00:53:34.440 Laura Phoenix (she/they): We're trying to hold them, and also be able to notice what is okay.
00:53:34.690 --> 00:53:38.290 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And some nervous systems need some help. With that. I know mine did.
00:53:38.730 --> 00:53:46.600 Mira Brancu: Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, that is exactly what we're all seeking
00:53:46.770 --> 00:53:50.939 Mira Brancu: is safety, you know. Right now, security and safety.
00:53:51.361 --> 00:53:56.059 Mira Brancu: That's pretty powerful. So if we were to now pull it all together.
00:53:56.590 --> 00:54:07.570 Mira Brancu: Right? How do you see these concepts that are seemingly so?
00:54:09.030 --> 00:54:12.960 Mira Brancu: Quote unquote? Simple. I mean, it's not really that simple but nice to meet you.
00:54:15.230 --> 00:54:21.489 Mira Brancu: could potentially make such an impact to create a more human centered world. That's where kind of we started.
00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:23.950 Mira Brancu: How do you make that connection? Where is that.
00:54:25.950 --> 00:54:28.750 Laura Phoenix (she/they): I think that the more connected we are to ourselves.
00:54:29.270 --> 00:54:35.719 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the better we can connect in our intimate relationships and our friendships, in our communities in our workplaces.
00:54:36.200 --> 00:54:41.679 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and if we're fragmented, cause the thing we always did was turn away, shut down.
00:54:41.740 --> 00:54:47.459 Laura Phoenix (she/they): yell at someone. You know what we there. There's an endless array of ways that
00:54:47.490 --> 00:54:52.920 Laura Phoenix (she/they): people cope with having more stress than they can navigate skillfully right.
00:54:53.140 --> 00:54:56.780 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and the more we have access to safety in ourselves.
00:54:57.020 --> 00:55:02.219 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the more we can hold the parts of ourselves that might be a little at war with tenderness
00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:11.760 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and care and compassion, like, the the more that we can we can give ourselves care
00:55:11.980 --> 00:55:16.460 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the more we can extend that care and mirror that care around us, like the more
00:55:16.640 --> 00:55:19.460 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the kind of the deeper the well we're drawing from.
00:55:20.670 --> 00:55:22.789 Mira Brancu: And this world needs.
00:55:23.120 --> 00:55:25.610 Mira Brancu: Oh, wow!
00:55:26.040 --> 00:55:28.890 Mira Brancu: That is powerful. That's powerful.
00:55:29.870 --> 00:55:33.440 Mira Brancu: All right. If you're if you're dying to know more and learn more from
00:55:33.610 --> 00:55:36.629 Mira Brancu: Laura. Laura, tell us where they can find you.
00:55:37.040 --> 00:55:38.030 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Sure.
00:55:38.030 --> 00:55:38.740 Mira Brancu: And more.
00:55:39.854 --> 00:55:48.360 Laura Phoenix (she/they): So my website is www, dot warrior pose yoga.com
00:55:48.660 --> 00:55:54.479 Laura Phoenix (she/they): It's actually pretty easy to show to show up for group Yoga classes. You can literally click through links there. So if that's
00:55:54.490 --> 00:56:07.629 Laura Phoenix (she/they): immediately interesting, you can click group. Yoga, you can click, get yoga, and that can happen. I've also got some free resources there. If you scroll down there are, they're actually abbreviated classes available.
00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:10.000 Laura Phoenix (she/they): And
00:56:10.020 --> 00:56:17.600 Laura Phoenix (she/they): the there's a free consult button. Where, if if somebody's listening and they're really like, yeah, I have my own questions about how I can do this.
00:56:18.418 --> 00:56:22.720 Laura Phoenix (she/they): That's a possibility. So yeah, free resources, Yoga classes
00:56:22.860 --> 00:56:27.660 Laura Phoenix (she/they): and the possibility to connect and ask your own questions are all available on my website.
00:56:28.080 --> 00:56:33.149 Mira Brancu: Love it, love it so easily accessible for such powerful impact.
00:56:33.560 --> 00:56:36.150 Mira Brancu: So, audience.
00:56:36.190 --> 00:56:44.460 Mira Brancu: what did you take away? And more importantly, what is one small change that you can implement this week, based on what you learned from Laura.
00:56:44.750 --> 00:56:55.200 Mira Brancu: Share it with us on Linkedin, and share it with talkradio dot Nyc on Linkedin. We're also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, twitch, apple spotify
00:56:55.370 --> 00:56:57.680 Mira Brancu: Amazon podcasts all over the place.
00:56:58.350 --> 00:57:05.820 Mira Brancu: help increase our visibility, reach and impact in the messages that you're hearing from the people on the show by leaving a review.
00:57:06.270 --> 00:57:14.409 Mira Brancu: and just wanted to say how grateful I am for what you do, Laura.
00:57:14.830 --> 00:57:21.280 Mira Brancu: Thank you to talkradio dot Nyc. For hosting. I'm Dr. Mira Branku, the host of the Hard Skills show.
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:23.090 Mira Brancu: And Laura, thank you.
00:57:23.610 --> 00:57:24.880 Laura Phoenix (she/they): Thank you so much.
00:57:25.730 --> 00:57:29.750 Mira Brancu: Have a great rest of your day wherever you're tuning in from bye. Everybody.
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