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EPISODE SUMMARY:
What makes diversity and inclusion—seemingly so simple—also so complicated and difficult to achieve? Truly bringing inclusion to life can sometimes feel quite challenging, especially when there seem to be forces pulling in many directions, and various inherent dilemmas involved in working with and across differences. In this episode, we will explore how to bring inclusion to life and how to understand and manage some of the paradoxes and tensions of inclusion.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
Leading in a diverse organization can often feel very challenging, especially given some of the pulls and pushes these days related to DEI. What is involved in inclusive leadership geared toward helping oneself and others work well with our many differences and toward gaining the benefits of diversity? In this episode, we will discuss how to bring inclusion to life -- the essence of inclusive leadership, what makes it challenging, and how to manage the inevitable tensions involved in working with and across differences. Bringing inclusion to life involves being authentic and helping others do so, fostering more experiences of inclusion for more people, and behaving and leading inclusively. But inclusion is also difficult. We will discuss and unpack core dilemmas that are part and parcel of inclusion, including the tensions between fostering self-expression and requiring mutual adaption, between being flexible and open about boundaries and norms and keeping them stable and well-defined, and between increasing comfort and safety and leaving our comfort zones and taking more risks. Join us to learn more about the everyday work of inclusive leadership.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Dr. Bernardo Ferdman is an internationally recognized expert and thought leader on inclusion, diversity, and inclusive leadership, with over 39 years of experience in the U.S. and around the world as an organization and leadership development consultant and executive coach. He is passionate about creating a more inclusive world where more people can be fully themselves and accomplish goals effectively, productively, and authentically, and he works with leaders and employees to develop and implement effective ways of using everyone’s talents and contributions and to build inclusive behavior and multicultural competencies. Bernardo is principal of Ferdman Consulting, which specializes in supporting leaders and organizations in bringing inclusion to life in leadership practices and in organizational cultures and systems, and he is Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the California School of Professional Psychology, where he taught for almost 25 years. Bernardo has written extensively on inclusion and inclusive leadership; his most recent book is Inclusive Leadership: Transforming Diverse Lives, Workplaces, and Societies. He received his Ph.D. in Psychology from Yale University in 1987. He is a
fellow of various professional organizations and was the recipient of the Society of Consulting Psychology’s 2019 Award for Excellence in Diversity and Inclusion Consulting.
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
Guest LinkedIn Profile: https://linkedin.com/in/ferdman ; https://www.linkedin.com/company/ferdmanconsulting
Guest Website: https://ferdmanconsulting.com (firm); https://inclusiveleader.com (book)
Our website: www.gotowerscope.com
https://linkedin.com/in/ferdman; https://www.linkedin.com/company/ferdmanconsulting; https://x.com/bferdman; https://www.instagram.com/bferdman; https://ferdmanconsulting.com (firm's website); https://inclusiveleader.com (book website)
#Inclusive:leadership; #DEI; #paradoxes; bringing inclusion to life; #TheHardSkills
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
00:00:33.430 --> 00:00:40.469 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome to the hard skills show where we discuss how to develop the most challenging soft skills
00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:47.260 Mira Brancu: required to navigate today's leadership complexities and tomorrow's unknowns. I am your host, Dr. Mira Branku.
00:00:47.710 --> 00:00:50.900 Mira Brancu: What makes diversity and inclusion so hard to achieve?
00:00:51.390 --> 00:01:03.860 Mira Brancu: It might be the paradoxes, the tensions, the core dilemmas inherent in inclusive leadership, that we're not attending to the true realities of working with real people who are complicated by nature.
00:01:03.990 --> 00:01:12.890 Mira Brancu: In this episode our guest, Dr. Bernardo Furman will help us identify these paradoxes and bring them to life. Welcome, Bernardo.
00:01:13.660 --> 00:01:16.750 Bernardo Ferdman: Thank you, Mira and Dr. Branco. It's great to be here.
00:01:16.960 --> 00:01:25.280 Mira Brancu: Yes, yes, I'm really excited to have you on so, Dr. Bernardo Ferdman, I'm going to tell you a little bit about him first.st He's principal of Ferdman. Consulting
00:01:25.290 --> 00:01:31.939 Mira Brancu: is an internationally recognized expert and thought leader on inclusion, diversity, and inclusive leadership
00:01:31.950 --> 00:01:39.549 Mira Brancu: with over 39 years of experience in the us and around the world as an organization, leadership, development, consultant and executive coach.
00:01:39.900 --> 00:01:47.790 Mira Brancu: Bernardo is also a distinguished Professor Emeritus at the California School of professional psychology, where he taught. For almost 25 years
00:01:47.940 --> 00:01:58.830 Mira Brancu: Bernardo has written extensively on inclusion and inclusive leadership, and his most recent book is inclusive leadership, transforming diverse lives, workplaces and societies.
00:01:59.240 --> 00:02:02.830 Mira Brancu: He received his Phd. In Psychology from Yale University.
00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:06.429 Mira Brancu: He's a fellow of various professional organizations.
00:02:06.550 --> 00:02:14.810 Mira Brancu: and was a recipient of the Society of Consulting psychology's 2019 award for excellence in diversity and inclusion consulting.
00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.960 Mira Brancu: So he has a load of expertise in this area.
00:02:19.370 --> 00:02:32.940 Mira Brancu: And just to reintroduce myself, I'm your host, Dr. Mira Branco. I'm a leadership consulting and coaching psychologist, founder of the Towerscope leadership, academy and associate professor, a psychology today, columnist author of millennials, guide to workplace politics
00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:39.869 Mira Brancu: and had my own leadership career before transitioning to helping teams and high achieving women navigate their leadership complexities.
00:02:40.940 --> 00:02:59.459 Mira Brancu: Now we are entering a new season with our new millennials, workbook for navigating workplace politics. This is coming out in December. So season 6 kicks us off by focusing on developing proactive strategies for positive, honest power and influence.
00:02:59.890 --> 00:03:10.999 Mira Brancu: And I really think that learning, good, inclusive leadership practices is absolutely one of those critical, proactive, positive influence skills. So I love.
00:03:11.040 --> 00:03:16.719 Mira Brancu: Bernardo, that you're kicking us off this new season with this focus, because I just think it's such a good fit.
00:03:17.210 --> 00:03:18.220 Mira Brancu: So
00:03:18.688 --> 00:03:29.419 Mira Brancu: let's get started. I just want to share a little bit about your background first, st I just think your background is so interesting. We have a lot of connections here. You are, a Latino Jewish immigrant.
00:03:30.020 --> 00:03:36.660 Mira Brancu: And you and I had an early life growing up in Queens, New York, and I'm pretty sure in Jackson Heights right.
00:03:36.660 --> 00:03:38.019 Bernardo Ferdman: I was in forest, field.
00:03:38.020 --> 00:03:38.870 Mira Brancu: Forest hills. Okay.
00:03:38.870 --> 00:03:39.849 Bernardo Ferdman: You're from part.
00:03:39.850 --> 00:03:48.969 Mira Brancu: Hills and Jamaica. I'm from Jackson Heights. These are like immigrant meccas in the Us. Okay, can you share more about this early upbringing? How it connects
00:03:49.630 --> 00:03:52.640 Mira Brancu: to your interests today, and inclusive leadership.
00:03:53.230 --> 00:04:21.730 Bernardo Ferdman: Yeah, sure, very much. So. I do think it's important to think about and acknowledge who we are and what our background is, and be able to share it. So to me, that's a basic practice, frankly, for inclusive leadership is to be grounded in ourselves and not to assume that everybody's like us, and that's what I learned. Early on I came to the Us. As a 7 year old, and immediately had to learn what it was to be Latino. We didn't use that term at the time, but we were from Argentina.
00:04:21.730 --> 00:04:34.369 Bernardo Ferdman: and a lot of people near us. At least we 1st lived in Manhattan for about a month, and we were in the Upper West Side in an area that had a lot of Puerto Ricans and some Dominicans, and
00:04:34.520 --> 00:04:56.060 Bernardo Ferdman: the people around us didn't know the difference. But we thought we were different, you know, just based on our middle class Argentinian perspective. And I'm not saying it's a good thing, but you know we didn't see ourselves as similar, or even close to being similar to the Puerto Ricans, and yet we were in some ways according to the people that looked at us. So that was a very 1st lesson in how perceptions of people
00:04:56.060 --> 00:05:22.740 Bernardo Ferdman: make a difference in the relationships between different groups. Right? We are not just what we think. We are individually, but we're members of these different groups, and we see ourselves, but are also seen that way. So also as a Jew coming from Argentina, we were in the minority there. But then we were suddenly in the minority of the Jewish community in New York when we moved to Queens. We, you know, I started going to Hebrew School, and these people around me were kind of different and strange. I was learning English
00:05:22.760 --> 00:05:30.739 Bernardo Ferdman: at school and had to fit in. People asked me to. You know I had to learn things like how to play stick, ball or baseball.
00:05:30.740 --> 00:05:54.619 Bernardo Ferdman: and you know the kids and the counselors at the summer day camp showed me how to bat, and they showed me how to bat right-handed, which I still do if I ever bat, which I don't do very often, but I'm left-handed. They never stopped to pay attention to what my particular needs were. And then this was in 1966, and I remember still around then the next year, and so on, is a time of a lot of immigration
00:05:54.630 --> 00:06:17.369 Bernardo Ferdman: after the 1965 immigration law, which later I became aware of how our experience was related to that of many other people. And so that's the other thing I learned, as I reflected back on my past and my experiences, how they are related to something that's going on around, that we don't always know about right people's experiences
00:06:17.390 --> 00:06:34.020 Bernardo Ferdman: now, as immigrants may be different than those of people around then or at different times. So what I remember is at my school, noticing a lot of the kids coming from Spanish speaking countries who didn't know English very well, acting out, being aggressive
00:06:34.030 --> 00:06:40.969 Bernardo Ferdman: and and and and trying to think in my young mind, 8, 9 years old, 7, 8, 9.
00:06:41.070 --> 00:06:56.970 Bernardo Ferdman: What's going on with them? Having some empathy, not liking the bullying, the bullying, and the aggressiveness, but also thinking there's something going on around them. So that was kind of my early ventures in social psychology before I even knew what it was, you know, trying to understand how systems affect us.
00:06:56.970 --> 00:07:16.846 Mira Brancu: Absolutely IA hundred percent relate. I came when I was 6. We came under a refugee sponsorship status and also sponsored by a Jewish organization Hias which still is around today to help political refugees and Jewish refugees. And
00:07:17.420 --> 00:07:44.479 Mira Brancu: you know, I remember having some similar experiences. I remember being put in a special education classroom because they didn't really like separate you out just just because you didn't know English. Everybody who didn't understand, regardless of reason, went into the special education classroom. Right? And so we had different needs, obviously. But that was kind of like an interesting experience. And I remember just
00:07:44.700 --> 00:08:09.859 Mira Brancu: looking back, how much it planted the seeds for my own interest in clinical and social psychology, and how systems work, and how some people succeed, and some people don't, within a system due to cultural barriers due to not just language, but like understanding how to navigate within a system with lots of unspoken rules. And that's kind of how I ended up being interested in workplace politics and
00:08:09.890 --> 00:08:19.189 Mira Brancu: sort of these social aspects of how we learn and grow and succeed in organizations as well. So I think we have a lot of interesting things in common in that way.
00:08:19.340 --> 00:08:25.781 Mira Brancu: Now, I'm curious. If if you, if we fast forward to kind of where you are today?
00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:40.540 Mira Brancu: and you've gotten into inclusive leadership. How did you end up being interested in especially like applying these interests to organizations and specifically to leaders navigating organizations. What were some of the
00:08:40.957 --> 00:08:48.380 Mira Brancu: challenges that you've seen as you've worked with leaders and organizations that cause you to to grow this interest in inclusive leadership.
00:08:49.450 --> 00:08:57.290 Bernardo Ferdman: I think, throughout my career, in my studies, and as I became a professor and a consultant.
00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:03.910 Bernardo Ferdman: I think what I was always interested in was, how can we make a difference? How can we help and work with people
00:09:03.970 --> 00:09:09.488 Bernardo Ferdman: to work better across differences? How can we bridge those different
00:09:10.050 --> 00:09:23.699 Bernardo Ferdman: experiences cultural perspectives, identities in a way that honors the specific identities and also sees ourselves as we're both similar and different, I guess, is is how the way I would put it is that
00:09:24.780 --> 00:09:35.519 Bernardo Ferdman: groups are different from each other. And we're also very different individually. And so those 2 things connect right? And during my graduate education.
00:09:35.520 --> 00:09:54.799 Bernardo Ferdman: I studied. I was in the psychology department at Yale, but I also took classes at the School of Organization and management that was very influential for me. And I learned about group dynamics and organizational diagnosis and paradox in particular, as we think about group interactions and dynamics. And so that lens of trying to
00:09:54.870 --> 00:09:59.390 Bernardo Ferdman: see the opposites that are contained in any particular phenomenon
00:09:59.420 --> 00:10:22.870 Bernardo Ferdman: as an inherent part of that phenomenon was very influential for me. So I started thinking about everything that way. So later on, I'm not going to tell you all the details, but much you know. A little bit later, when I was thinking about. You know, there were a lot of controversies about affirmative action, for example, and I was thinking about fairness and equity. How do we think about equity differently depending. If we take an individual lens
00:10:22.870 --> 00:10:47.419 Bernardo Ferdman: or a group lens, I realize that they both matter right. I want to be treated as an individual, but I also don't want my identity as a as a Latino, as a Jew, as a as a man, as a whatever I am to be acknowledged, and there's differences between the different groups. But I'm also different than other Jews and other Latinos and other men. So there's a combination of within group diversity and between group diversity that both
00:10:47.420 --> 00:10:54.170 Bernardo Ferdman: matter and this was something I addressed in trying to understand fairness from a paradoxical perspective.
00:10:54.170 --> 00:11:12.709 Bernardo Ferdman: We want both to individual perspectives. We want everybody to be treated as individual, and we also want to understand what are the pattern ways in which groups are treated differently, often unequally, when it comes to things like race and gender and ability, and many other dimensions of difference. And so.
00:11:12.710 --> 00:11:31.339 Bernardo Ferdman: taking a paradoxical perspective helps us understand that we need both lenses. And I did the same thing in my research on intercultural interactions, starting with my dissertation, really trying to understand how we can take into account things like cultural difference and group identities, but also recognize that there's within group
00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:43.820 Bernardo Ferdman: individualization that matters. And so this is in a sense, the seeds of what I've been doing since then to look at inclusion really as an interactive process.
00:11:43.850 --> 00:11:45.650 Bernardo Ferdman: and we can especially.
00:11:45.650 --> 00:11:48.388 Mira Brancu: Interested in. Yeah, I'm especially interested in
00:11:48.820 --> 00:11:54.429 Mira Brancu: If if we go back to like the basics in psychology.
00:11:54.480 --> 00:12:02.580 Mira Brancu: first, st before we get into the sort of inclusive leadership perspective around. Paradox. What are the
00:12:03.695 --> 00:12:10.760 Mira Brancu: Sort of basic foundational things to to think about when you think about paradoxes within group dynamics.
00:12:11.270 --> 00:12:18.410 Mira Brancu: How can people understand that from just a psychological standpoint, when they're looking at groups? What are those paradoxes that we think about.
00:12:18.550 --> 00:12:30.120 Bernardo Ferdman: I'll illustrate, at least I'll describe at least one of them, and this comes in part from my professor, David Berg and his colleague, Ken Smith, who wrote a wonderful book called Paradoxes of Group Life back in 1980,
00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:52.479 Bernardo Ferdman: late eighties. Anyway, one key paradox that it's important to understand is that when we belong to a group, when we join a group right when we're partnering with other people. On the one hand, we want to, we want to give up of ourselves our separateness, identity, as separate right. We have to be kind of as one with the group to really feel like we're part of it to really engage right.
00:12:52.600 --> 00:13:04.369 Bernardo Ferdman: But the other side of that is, if we do that, if we give up we are, then we're not contributing so much to the group. We're not making as much of a difference to be useful to the group, to to be able to truly
00:13:04.890 --> 00:13:14.560 Bernardo Ferdman: contribute something. I have to maintain my distinctiveness. That unique part that really adds some difference. Otherwise, what's the point of having me there?
00:13:14.570 --> 00:13:27.380 Bernardo Ferdman: If I'm just a clone of the other people right? And so. But it's a both. And this, if I'm totally different, and I don't feel like I'm really part of it, then I'm not contributing either, so I have to keep both there.
00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:28.789 Mira Brancu: It's really good. Yeah.
00:13:28.790 --> 00:13:38.940 Bernardo Ferdman: And so that's 1 example. You know, I'm attracted to people like me. But if I'm only with people like me, then we're not going to get the benefit of the fact that we're all different. And the reality is, anybody
00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.340 Bernardo Ferdman: might be like me, but they're also different from me.
00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:53.890 Bernardo Ferdman: It's always both right. And there's a psychologist who influenced me a lot in some of his work. His name is Guravitch, but he wrote about the importance of
00:13:53.890 --> 00:14:16.119 Bernardo Ferdman: not understanding right? When we're trying to understand someone we can try so hard to understand that we're not able to not understand. And the importance, even with someone we're so close to, to make them strange, not in a negative way, but in the sense of not finishing each other's sentences. If I'm with my wife. And I just assume I know exactly what she's going to say or do. I actually can create some problems in our relationship.
00:14:16.750 --> 00:14:35.999 Bernardo Ferdman: Right intimacy has its limits to the extent that I impose myself on others through my own lens. And so this is a basic thing. Also, you asked about, you know, basic things in psychology is that sense of similarity and otherness is always part of human relations, and that, you know you asked me about my background that always fascinated me.
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:59.699 Bernardo Ferdman: you know, because as an immigrant, as someone who moved later from New York to Puerto Rico had to readapt again, and then from Puerto Rico to college. You know, from this elite, you know University that never stepped foot on, very strange and alien in some ways, and familiar in terms of some of the academics and things. So there's always that both. And this, that I think, is part of inclusion and inclusive leadership, right.
00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:12.480 Mira Brancu: Yeah, awesome, awesome. Thank you. This is great. So as we're thinking about how to be part of a group, but maintain distinctiveness and contribute without making assumptions. Those paradoxes.
00:15:12.841 --> 00:15:26.520 Mira Brancu: When we come back from the ad break. By the way, we're reaching an ad break here when we come back. Let's now start applying this to what that looks like and what those paradoxes are related to inclusive leadership.
00:15:26.680 --> 00:15:39.950 Mira Brancu: You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Bernardo Furdman, and we air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. Eastern. At that time you can find us live streaming on Linkedin Youtube
00:15:40.010 --> 00:15:45.549 Mira Brancu: several other locations@talkradio.nyc. And we'll be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:04.800 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest today, Dr. Bernardo Furdman.
00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:12.989 Mira Brancu: and we're talking about inclusive leadership. We just got done talking about the paradoxes inherent in group processes.
00:18:13.030 --> 00:18:21.419 Mira Brancu: And now we're going to start applying it to inclusive leadership. So let's start with just like, what is the definition? Your definition of inclusive leadership.
00:18:21.990 --> 00:18:51.009 Bernardo Ferdman: Yeah, 1st of all, let me say that leadership can come from anyone. So that's why I talk about it as inclusive leadership rather than inclusive leaders, not a trait. But it's really about what we do or don't do. And so inclusive leadership is about helping to foster more what I call experiences of inclusion for everyone across all our many different identities, supporting ourselves and others, feeling more valued, safe engaged, able to be ourselves able to speak up, able to participate and contribute
00:18:51.478 --> 00:18:53.351 Bernardo Ferdman: in in ways that
00:18:54.110 --> 00:19:22.510 Bernardo Ferdman: are supportive of who we are across many different identities. So more experiences of inclusion, fostering those, second of all treating, helping to see and treat diversity as a collective advantage, something that's a mutual benefit for the person and for everyone, right? Collectives, groups, organizations, communities where we really see our differences as a resource that is beneficial for everyone. 3, rd it's about really trying to foster
00:19:22.570 --> 00:19:23.695 Bernardo Ferdman: ideas,
00:19:24.820 --> 00:19:46.769 Bernardo Ferdman: direction contributions from many different kinds of people across many different identities, right? Not assuming that people in a position of authority only fit a certain mold can only be of certain identities, but expanding that idea, expanding who we listen to for innovation and contributions and helping to make that happen. And the 4th part for me is really
00:19:46.770 --> 00:20:05.320 Bernardo Ferdman: focusing on equity and social justice as important goals and things that we address. So all those 4 things, experiences of inclusion, diversity is an advantage, contributions and direction from all kinds of people, and equity and social justice, I think, are all critical to inclusive leadership.
00:20:05.850 --> 00:20:08.960 Mira Brancu: Thank you. This is really really helpful.
00:20:09.665 --> 00:20:12.634 Mira Brancu: Definition and and set set of
00:20:13.770 --> 00:20:16.540 Mira Brancu: portions of that definition. And
00:20:17.340 --> 00:20:34.969 Mira Brancu: before we get into the paradoxes. As I'm listening to these 4, I'm compelled to think about the article that you wrote in 2017, which is so apropos today, it's called in Trump's shadow, questioning and testing the boundaries of inclusion.
00:20:34.970 --> 00:20:35.340 Bernardo Ferdman: You know.
00:20:35.340 --> 00:20:39.769 Mira Brancu: And you identify the challenge of these paradoxes and tensions about how we
00:20:40.541 --> 00:20:48.370 Mira Brancu: think through, like how we show up as Dei consultants and champions and inclusive leaders. How to better engage
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:49.910 Mira Brancu: with people
00:20:50.130 --> 00:21:18.989 Mira Brancu: who are, you know, different from us, and not sort of impose our ideas necessarily, but sort of like navigate how we feel about people with different points of view. Right? And now we've entered this new Trump Presidency. We feel like some voices are more emboldened that, and that those voices might challenge how we think about accepting inclusion or embracing, or whatever. And there's this intense
00:21:19.520 --> 00:21:26.900 Mira Brancu: tension there that I feel that I think, like many of us feel. And I look back at the the definitions that you shared right.
00:21:27.020 --> 00:21:29.510 Mira Brancu: and especially the fostering ideas.
00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:32.570 Mira Brancu: contributions from different perspectives.
00:21:33.052 --> 00:21:35.829 Mira Brancu: The equity and social justice piece.
00:21:36.570 --> 00:21:39.369 Mira Brancu: I'm just curious as as
00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:41.889 Mira Brancu: you've been thinking through
00:21:42.600 --> 00:21:44.579 Mira Brancu: how to just
00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:49.709 Mira Brancu: be able to lean into differences of opinion, even when we feel
00:21:49.800 --> 00:21:53.749 Mira Brancu: that they're so off and so hurtful to other people
00:21:53.760 --> 00:21:55.130 Mira Brancu: and to us.
00:21:55.766 --> 00:21:59.239 Mira Brancu: But but still the importance of engaging and the.
00:21:59.240 --> 00:21:59.580 Bernardo Ferdman: Important.
00:21:59.580 --> 00:22:06.770 Mira Brancu: Of having different, you know. Differences of ideas. How do you make? How do you make sense of it, Bernardo? What.
00:22:06.770 --> 00:22:07.100 Bernardo Ferdman: Yes.
00:22:07.100 --> 00:22:08.839 Mira Brancu: We do. It's confusing.
00:22:08.840 --> 00:22:32.109 Bernardo Ferdman: And difficult, and I hear that in part in the challenge of even the questions right? This is a challenging time for some of us in this space of working on inclusion, my career, my values, are all about trying to create a more inclusive and more just world, where more of us can be ourselves and do things that matter. And I have to admit that that's challenged by some of the politics and
00:22:32.110 --> 00:22:57.039 Bernardo Ferdman: perspectives of the incoming. What I think, are the perspectives and politics of the incoming administration, at least as stated often during these last few years. And so the challenge that I see for myself, and as written about in that article as well as a Dni consultant is, I want to have inclusion. I want to have more voices, more perspectives, more identities. So how do I reconcile that with.
00:22:57.490 --> 00:23:18.979 Bernardo Ferdman: you know, a lot of people who are saying, wait, we're trying to close things down. We want to put a border and make it stronger. We want to think that only certain kinds of people should be included and not others, that there's some limits to our acceptance. You know, there's a lot of debate over transgender identities. And
00:23:19.670 --> 00:23:29.420 Bernardo Ferdman: you know, I think I find that difficult. But it's also makes sense that we're all always debating who should be included? And and to what right? What is that
00:23:30.020 --> 00:23:53.999 Bernardo Ferdman: nation or collective that? And who decides who's being included? What are the how are the boundaries determined? Right? There's always has to be boundaries. And so the challenge is, who decides them, and how? And so my challenge is, how do I listen to someone who has a different point of view than mine in a way that is open and inclusive, and tries to understand or not understand, as I explained earlier, at least to allow for that.
00:23:54.320 --> 00:24:13.540 Bernardo Ferdman: But also, how do I at the same time stand strong for the values of doing that, because if the message from the other person or the other group is no, we want to shut things down to me. That's a kind of polarization. If it's a total shutdown, if it says no, you are not included under any circumstances.
00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:18.524 Bernardo Ferdman: That's total exclusion. Well, that's ethnocentrism or
00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:27.349 Bernardo Ferdman: You know it could be imperialism, I mean, depends how you think about it, but that now we have a values conflict that we have to resolve. But we have to be in dialogue
00:24:27.350 --> 00:24:51.569 Bernardo Ferdman: anyway, whether or not we agree, disagree. But I also take from when I start thinking about inclusion, I think there's 3 different types. One is just pure assimilation. You can only be included to the extent that you become like us, and you adopt our values right? So that makes it clear who's in the dominant group. Who is the Us. And who is the them right? And a lot of the rhetoric, I hear is like that. And that's the part that I'm challenged by
00:24:51.590 --> 00:25:01.140 Bernardo Ferdman: another kind of inclusion is one that says anything goes right, and that's what some people seem to be upset about, and why they are.
00:25:01.770 --> 00:25:09.696 Bernardo Ferdman: Why, we see what we're seeing now. Some people are saying. Well, there were 2. It was too open, right? We hear this fear of UN, you know, unbounded
00:25:10.470 --> 00:25:25.270 Bernardo Ferdman: orders, you know. And that's also that's challenging to a lot of people because it feels like it's going to challenge our sense of identity or stability, or anything like that. Again, apart from the the bigotry that might be related to that. But just in general, right.
00:25:25.390 --> 00:25:37.700 Bernardo Ferdman: I don't want anybody living in my house. I want to have a space in my house that's mine, right? And that seems to be reasonable right, even as I try to take care of other people outside my house or in the neighborhood.
00:25:38.120 --> 00:26:04.290 Bernardo Ferdman: So those 2 kinds, those neither of those, is truly inclusion in my mind. What inclusion is having some norms around, how we interact with each other in ways that make space for more people and more possibilities in ways that include some degree of civility. So we have to understand what those norms and rules are. And the philosopher Carl Popper, in writing about tolerance, said that if we want to really promote tolerance. We have to be intolerant
00:26:04.300 --> 00:26:11.210 Bernardo Ferdman: of the intolerant. That's a kind of a paradox, right? It's like, if you're truly tolerant, you're not going to tolerate intolerance.
00:26:11.320 --> 00:26:34.969 Bernardo Ferdman: which is right. It seems contradictory, but it's really not as long as so I think that's the tension that I'm dealing with, and so I need to be able to engage and understand. How are different people around me and around the country, thinking and feeling? Why do they feel that way? If I just lord it over people and think that oh, my! Only only my position is correct. That's not inclusion, or diversity or equity. It doesn't align with my values.
00:26:35.430 --> 00:26:55.760 Bernardo Ferdman: So I have to make sure that my approach. So that's my approach to inclusion. It's about trying to listen. It's about trying to dialogue. It's about trying to engage, even when something is uncomfortable and challenging and difficult. Right? I don't think it works when you go to someone and say you are absolutely wrong. There's something wrong with you. You have to come over to my way. And I think.
00:26:55.800 --> 00:27:05.859 Bernardo Ferdman: unfortunately, sometimes, when we try to promote progressive values, that's what sometimes happens, or people experience it that way, anyway, right? And so there's a balance to be struck that says.
00:27:05.900 --> 00:27:29.619 Bernardo Ferdman: No, I'm not going to give up on the need to have rights for more people and inclusion of more people. You know, I think people who are neurodivergent or people who Lgbtq plus people who have a disability should deserve to be fully part of a group society workplace. The biggest civil rights law in the United States was the Americans with Disabilities act, and that benefits so many of us.
00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:36.320 Bernardo Ferdman: Right? So we have to really address that. And everybody matters in this regard right?
00:27:36.770 --> 00:28:03.660 Bernardo Ferdman: In other words, even people who want to put up boundaries and borders, and all of that also can benefit from this approach to inclusion. And so part of it is, how do we engage with people in a dialogue, where, instead of attacking people, how do we start hearing each other and getting that feeling of being more open and engaged. So then it starts changing the image of what this is all about, and makes more space eventually for more difference. Right?
00:28:04.470 --> 00:28:05.932 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And and
00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:09.139 Mira Brancu: you know, as I'm listening to you.
00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:13.119 Mira Brancu: there's a couple of things that are resonating about
00:28:13.606 --> 00:28:16.813 Mira Brancu: how how to reconcile some of this, which is
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:21.610 Mira Brancu: You know you mentioned one of the 4 parts of inclusive leadership
00:28:21.620 --> 00:28:22.864 Mira Brancu: includes,
00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:25.300 Mira Brancu: you know.
00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:33.060 Mira Brancu: feeling valued and valuing, others engaged. You know, able to see, speak up and feel safe.
00:28:33.100 --> 00:28:41.369 Mira Brancu: and offering that to others right? And we each have the power to do that, regardless of what role we're in, and
00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:57.910 Mira Brancu: we expect and hope that of others. And so the sort of like flip to that is making assumptions and quick judgments and being judgmental, which shuts people down and doesn't make them feel valued and doesn't make them feel, you know, heard and supported. And so how can we sort of
00:28:59.410 --> 00:29:01.380 Mira Brancu: overcome our
00:29:01.430 --> 00:29:04.629 Mira Brancu: judgmental assumption side, which
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:16.119 Mira Brancu: serves a purpose. It keeps us safe in certain situations, and then doesn't serve a purpose when it comes to connection and engagement and
00:29:16.150 --> 00:29:23.059 Mira Brancu: learning or opening, you know. Up, you know, viewpoints and things like that. So that's kind of like how I'm starting to
00:29:23.080 --> 00:29:25.429 Mira Brancu: to reconcile some of these paradoxes.
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.563 Mira Brancu: We we are reaching an ad break and
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:38.379 Mira Brancu: Now we're definitely going to pull all of this together with the paradoxes.
00:29:38.887 --> 00:29:43.760 Mira Brancu: I just I absolutely love. I have one of your
00:29:44.233 --> 00:29:48.009 Mira Brancu: articles up that shows these paradoxes, and I think they're just
00:29:48.250 --> 00:30:04.140 Mira Brancu: immensely helpful. So we're going to dive in when we come back from the ad break around these so that we can learn a little bit more. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest, Dr. Bernardo Furdman, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:32:08.990 --> 00:32:14.860 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Bernardo Furdman.
00:32:15.030 --> 00:32:21.069 Mira Brancu: of inclusive leadership, expert and book and
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:23.819 Mira Brancu: we talked a lot about
00:32:24.350 --> 00:32:46.320 Mira Brancu: various paradoxes as well as what inclusive leadership means, which is a big part of this. You know how how to define it, explain it, understand it in more complex terms than perhaps people used to in order to acknowledge the complexity behind what we're trying to really balance here. And
00:32:47.114 --> 00:32:48.836 Mira Brancu: one of the
00:32:50.470 --> 00:33:12.009 Mira Brancu: One of the things that I read. You're very prolific, Bernardo, and you write a lot about this, and one of the articles that I really love was from 2017 in the Journal of Applied Behavioral science, the paradoxes of inclusion, understanding, and managing the tensions of diversity and multiculturalism. And there is this.
00:33:12.830 --> 00:33:14.540 Mira Brancu: this framework.
00:33:14.670 --> 00:33:27.579 Mira Brancu: that, or figure that you shared about 3 different types of paradoxes that I would love for you to share a little bit more about like, what are those 3 different types of paradoxes? What are the things that we're trying to balance.
00:33:28.170 --> 00:33:50.150 Bernardo Ferdman: Sure just to remember the context right. This is premised on the idea that difference, diversity is a resource of benefit, and if you think about the United States, for example, the motto at Pluribus, num from many one. So, on the one hand, there's this idea that we can blend together. But, on the other hand, the structures, the processes, the
00:33:50.190 --> 00:34:13.370 Bernardo Ferdman: the rules. If you will maintain that distinctness, for example, of the different States, the many are not blended completely into just this homogeneous mass. There's a certain pride in the many differences right? There's debate now about the extent of the differences that should be allowed, and that feeds into the examples of the paradoxes. So there's 3 different paradoxes that I
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:41.539 Bernardo Ferdman: discuss and analyze in this article that you mentioned, and in my thinking about this I'll now explain very briefly. I'll mention the 3, and then I can go into each one, but one of them has to do with the paradox of what I call the self expression and identity. So how much? Who am I? How much? In what ways can I express that in a group context. And how do we? How can we be both both alike and different in a group as I building on what I was talking about earlier.
00:34:41.540 --> 00:34:52.289 Bernardo Ferdman: How do we foster belonging and unity? So we can have inclusion in a diverse group and enable the differences to coexist? So we can add value to and inform the whole group.
00:34:52.510 --> 00:35:11.520 Bernardo Ferdman: So that's 1 of the paradoxes. The second one has to do with boundaries and norms. What is it that holds us together. What is the container in which we coexist? And who defines that? And what defines that, and how flexible and rigid are norms in that bond that hold us together, especially as people change, or as the membership changes.
00:35:11.560 --> 00:35:32.139 Bernardo Ferdman: or to what degree should it change, or can it change? And the 3rd one has to do with safety and comfort. It's a paradox of safety and comfort. How much freedom of action, what range of expression do we each have as we engage across our differences? What the mask can we make of each other? What responsibilities do we have toward each other? How can we be safe
00:35:32.240 --> 00:35:38.889 Bernardo Ferdman: as we interact uncomfortable, perhaps, in addition to being sick. So if you'd like, I can go through each one.
00:35:39.260 --> 00:35:53.570 Mira Brancu: Yes, yeah. So so we're looking at 3 paradox of self expression and identity, then boundaries and norms and safety and comfort. Let's start with the self expression and and identity. What! What are we struggling with here?
00:35:53.570 --> 00:36:17.259 Bernardo Ferdman: Yeah. So just to remind you and the listeners, paradoxes are dynamics, phenomena where the opposite it feels like there's opposites. But it's part of the 2 sides of the same coin. So if you think of Yin and Yang right, the idea is that all of us have both of them, even though they contradictory to each other. And part of what happens in paradoxes is, if we pull towards one direction, the other one kind of pops up and gets stronger too.
00:36:17.260 --> 00:36:25.989 Bernardo Ferdman: So in groups and societies you feel a certain pulling in one direction to the extent that it's a paradoxical dynamic. The other side is going to
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:53.910 Bernardo Ferdman: reemerge even stronger right? So in this paradox of self-expression and identity, on the one side of the paradox, inclusion means we can all belong and be the same right? That's the belonging side. Right? We're we're equally citizens of the United States, regardless of if we're immigrants or not, or how many generations in this country. I'm a member of Xyz corporation. We're all
00:36:54.170 --> 00:37:09.780 Bernardo Ferdman: exemplars of Xyz corporation, right? Men, women, new people, more veterans, you know. Everyone has that same right of membership and being an exemplar right?
00:37:10.229 --> 00:37:29.569 Bernardo Ferdman: So in from that perspective, we encourage people to be more like each other, and we emphasize similarities. Right. I remember. You know, Vice President Harris, speaking to that in almost every speech. We're more alike than we are different, right? As a way to emphasize this, and it makes sense for many of us. Right?
00:37:29.660 --> 00:37:51.570 Bernardo Ferdman: The other side of the paradox is that inclusion means we can all belong and be different, that it's okay for me to come to the United States and speak Spanish as a 1st language as well as English right that I don't have to lose that distinctiveness. On the contrary, that inclusion means I can maintain it, that it's possible, when we're free, to be different from each other as we're in this collective
00:37:51.570 --> 00:38:05.490 Bernardo Ferdman: inclusion means allowing and fostering authenticity, even dissent. The dissent can be seen as helping all of us, and and inclusion would encourage from this perspective people to follow their own path, and emphasize how people are different, not in a
00:38:05.670 --> 00:38:20.659 Bernardo Ferdman: a way that makes us conflict with each other, but conflict with each other, but rather that says, that's just natural right? Why would I want all my kids to be the same? I have 3 kids. They're all different from each other, and so to really being fully part of the family, that each should be able to follow their own path
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:22.005 Bernardo Ferdman: and.
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:28.240 Mira Brancu: One of the insights I think I'm having right now, as you're describing. This is
00:38:29.390 --> 00:38:37.969 Mira Brancu: and I'm I'm stuck on this idea of like. The more you insist on one side, the more the other side is going to pop up right? So you know, one of the things that I think
00:38:38.410 --> 00:38:53.668 Mira Brancu: we've noticed is the more we want to insist on differences, the more. You know, people who want to feel a sense of connection. Start getting agitated by? Why are we talking about our differences? You know?
00:38:54.050 --> 00:38:54.400 Bernardo Ferdman: And.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:09.910 Mira Brancu: And that is like a reaction to the insistence of differences. And so can we both appreciate our differences and also have share some shared values that bring us together is one way to potentially reconcile that paradox right.
00:39:10.340 --> 00:39:31.319 Bernardo Ferdman: Yeah, I think that's right. I think the values piece is also related to the boundaries and norms. Right? What? What are the basis for being together, but just at a basic level, you know, if you think about the different polls that you mentioned right, you might hear someone say, or think, you know, if I just learned their rules for success, then I'll be fully accepted. Right? So you remember, back in the
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:49.170 Bernardo Ferdman: was it the eighties, or whatever it was when there was these books to tell women how to dress for success, and they would wear those little floppy things that look like ties, and it just didn't work. Very well. Right? That was the trend. How do you assimilate? Actually, that's the idea, right? And many, many people try to do that I learned English, and when I moved
00:39:49.530 --> 00:40:16.159 Bernardo Ferdman: from New York to Puerto Rico I lost my queens or Long Island accent right? And I learned a new kind of Spanish right? Because that's what helped me fit in. But what I learned over time is that that didn't bring out the best in me that if I could really wanted to be grounded in who I am, and truly feel a part, I should be able to also be different. Right? So the other side is the other expression that you hear is, you know, if I want to be fully authentic to who I am.
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:22.909 Bernardo Ferdman: I'm not ever gonna do things their way. Right? I'm just, I'm gonna sell out right? So we see these 2 sides of the paradox. Yeah, thanks for sharing.
00:40:22.910 --> 00:40:23.430 Mira Brancu: Yes, yes.
00:40:23.430 --> 00:40:24.499 Bernardo Ferdman: So those of you who.
00:40:24.500 --> 00:40:44.190 Mira Brancu: Are able to watch us either live stream or later on on Youtube. When we post this on video, I'm sharing the page on the article where you could actually see all of these paradoxes what they look like, the definition. So let's let's go to the next one paradox of boundaries and norms tell us about this one.
00:40:44.440 --> 00:41:13.130 Bernardo Ferdman: And later, I hope we can come and talk about how do you address them? Because it's really, by the way, let me just say that it's about holding space for the paradox. If you try to just do it one side or the other, it's not going to work. And so just the basic idea is we have to find a way to make it a both and always right. And that's a key part of leadership anyways, managing paradox and understanding and managing it. Anyway, the second paradox is about boundaries and norms, and it has to do with you know what holds us together?
00:41:13.130 --> 00:41:35.239 Bernardo Ferdman: How do we effectively define collective boundaries and norms without losing the benefits of expansion, of challenge, of pressure that helps make the norms more adaptive to changing membership and to changing conditions. If we just do everything the same way always, how are we going to deal with the changing world and the changing membership? Right? Even if you keep the same people in a group.
00:41:35.270 --> 00:41:50.139 Bernardo Ferdman: you you, we change, we get older, we develop, we have different needs over time. So we have to constantly reexamine our processes, but not to just do the only that. So that's the tension, right? We have to pay attention to and address people's needs and views, and still do work.
00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:51.270 Bernardo Ferdman: So.
00:41:51.540 --> 00:42:14.680 Bernardo Ferdman: on the one hand, inclusion is about having stable and well-defined norms and boundaries, especially around inclusion. Right? So how do we have to deal with each other, what is? Who can come in and out? How should we interact? We need to make those fairly clear and well defined, otherwise it becomes a little bit chaotic. We have a safe container for people. Otherwise, how do you have inclusion? We need to know what is that defined container.
00:42:14.850 --> 00:42:20.769 Bernardo Ferdman: and then we should have norms of inclusion that should be consistent and passed on. Otherwise how do we maintain inclusion?
00:42:20.890 --> 00:42:47.229 Bernardo Ferdman: The other side of that is, we have to shift and be open about our norms and boundaries over time, because if we don't well, we have to reconstruct them and re-examine as current members and conditions change. We have to have a permeable, flexible container. If we're just a hard, rigid boundary, then we're not really fostering inclusion. And then the norms of inclusion should change as the members and needs change right. What was felt inclusive in these conditions is going to change is.
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:49.290 Bernardo Ferdman: as as you know. So so
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.960 Bernardo Ferdman: you have to do both right. That's the idea. So.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:56.690 Mira Brancu: You know, I'm personally reflecting on
00:42:57.010 --> 00:42:59.690 Mira Brancu: the you know when I do team development.
00:42:59.710 --> 00:43:01.720 Mira Brancu: And I notice
00:43:03.560 --> 00:43:04.500 Mira Brancu: that
00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:09.369 Mira Brancu: a team is having trouble with the very 1st thing that we do, which is ground rules.
00:43:09.740 --> 00:43:10.320 Bernardo Ferdman: Yes.
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.570 Mira Brancu: Then I know this is a trouble.
00:43:11.570 --> 00:43:11.920 Bernardo Ferdman: Yes.
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:19.349 Mira Brancu: Team. Because and and now I'm connecting it to this boundaries and norms, because there isn't enough of
00:43:19.510 --> 00:43:24.299 Mira Brancu: finding balance somewhere with the norms that they have, and the flexibility
00:43:24.685 --> 00:43:32.140 Mira Brancu: and they just get stuck there, and that's usually assigned to me that they've got a lot of work to do.
00:43:32.140 --> 00:43:46.739 Bernardo Ferdman: That's right, and that but that process is so important. That's a key, at least with the people who are there. The other side of that is the the fear of the slippery slope. It's like, if we change this like, if we change the rules or open the conversation, we may just well give it all up
00:43:46.750 --> 00:43:56.160 Bernardo Ferdman: right. But, on the other hand, if if you know, if you don't do that then nothing nothing happens right. We might right. So.
00:43:56.160 --> 00:43:56.860 Mira Brancu: Yeah, if we.
00:43:56.860 --> 00:44:15.330 Bernardo Ferdman: Say, we need to get everyone's input and consent before we act. Or we might offend someone that's the other side of it. So then you're an endless process, right? So you have to find some balance that that allows for both edges. It's not just the middle ground. That's the mistake also is just thinking that there's a middle ground. There isn't a middle ground.
00:44:15.450 --> 00:44:18.350 Bernardo Ferdman: That's what's really confusing at heart about this.
00:44:18.610 --> 00:44:31.629 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, brilliant. There isn't. It's it's based on, you know, the team and what the team needs. With the composition they have and redoing those norms when it makes sense. There's, you know, if there's a shift.
00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:38.770 Mira Brancu: Okay, we're reaching an ad break. So when we come back we'll get into that last paradox of safety and comfort.
00:44:38.890 --> 00:44:44.019 Mira Brancu: Thank you very much, Dr. Bernardo Friedman, for joining us. We'll be right back in just a moment.
00:46:49.640 --> 00:46:58.600 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mara Branco and our guest today, Dr. Bernardo Ferdman, author and expert of inclusive leadership.
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:07.890 Mira Brancu: Bernardo. We talked about 2 of your 3 paradoxes. I'd love to get into that last one safety and comfort. What's the paradox that we are
00:47:08.020 --> 00:47:10.889 Mira Brancu: going back and forth between, with that one.
00:47:11.170 --> 00:47:33.620 Bernardo Ferdman: Yeah, that's a really important one. And here, on the one hand, inclusion is about creating more comfort. Right? It's about increasing my individual comfort. It's about increasing collective comfort. We should feel at ease right? We shouldn't be looking behind our back to see if somebody's going to get us all the time. Right? We need to be able to be okay with difference.
00:47:33.620 --> 00:47:51.920 Bernardo Ferdman: Right? We want to be able to be authentic and allow other people to be that way and accept them for who they are, so they can be comfortable as themselves. So people shouldn't have to. People should be able to just be right. But my my father used to say to me and my brothers, that our comfort in stretching out ends at the other person's nose.
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:55.150 Bernardo Ferdman: so that's the other side of the of the
00:47:55.220 --> 00:48:14.929 Bernardo Ferdman: of the paradox is that we have to be able to leave our individual and comfort zone and expand our options and responses as part of fostering inclusion, because the more that we make space for difference, the more I'm going to run into people who might be unusual, different that I don't understand that I need to be able to adjust to.
00:48:14.930 --> 00:48:38.290 Bernardo Ferdman: or at least that there needs to be mutual adjustment. So inclusion is only going to be possible if everybody's more attentive and sensitive and less focused on feeling at ease. Right? So we all have to adapt and support each other, and everybody has to change to some degree to co-construct inclusion. And so it's about mutual discomfort, right? We have to do it to the degree that we can stand. We all have to become more comfortable with that kind of discomfort. And so
00:48:38.290 --> 00:48:49.319 Bernardo Ferdman: part of it is that the discomfort has to be more equitable because some people are just used to going around without thinking about it, and just being themselves, and other people constantly have to adapt, like you and I, as immigrants had to do that right.
00:48:49.330 --> 00:48:54.989 Bernardo Ferdman: The other people around us just did their thing. They weren't adapting to us so much as we had to adapt to them.
00:48:55.000 --> 00:49:07.039 Bernardo Ferdman: And so this is a tension that we have to constantly think about, because you can't just have it one way or the other way, or it's not going to hold. And so that's really the the 3rd paradox.
00:49:07.040 --> 00:49:08.970 Mira Brancu: Yeah, love it. Okay, so
00:49:10.145 --> 00:49:11.220 Mira Brancu: identity
00:49:11.240 --> 00:49:16.019 Mira Brancu: and self-expression, boundaries and norms and safety and comfort.
00:49:16.020 --> 00:49:16.680 Bernardo Ferdman: Exactly.
00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:25.950 Mira Brancu: How, what can leaders do with this information to navigate the tensions that they see and create that
00:49:26.393 --> 00:49:34.260 Mira Brancu: experience of inclusion in the workplace in a way that that balances these. What does it look like in practice?
00:49:34.530 --> 00:49:47.270 Bernardo Ferdman: Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think there's some ways to. You have to manage the paradox, I think, in terms of self-expression identity we have to avoid polarizing between the 2 sides. We have to understand that identifying with the larger group
00:49:47.290 --> 00:50:15.670 Bernardo Ferdman: can allow for distinctiveness. I can be an American of a certain type. I can be a member of an organization who is different than others. For example, you and I are both part of the American Psychological Association. There's how many 50 plus divisions, right? Different kinds of psychologists. It doesn't make us any less of psychologists. So I can be Jewish and Latino, and people say, really a Jewish Latino. I understand I'm not prototypical, but I can still be 100% Latino, even though I'm different than many, many other Latinos
00:50:15.670 --> 00:50:33.880 Bernardo Ferdman: and same thing as a Jew. You know I'm different than other Jews in the United States. So it's that both. And this right and also affirmation of uniqueness can strengthen a sense of authentic belonging to the collective. So by strengthening those sub identities, there's actually research that shows that we have a stronger connection to the larger.
00:50:34.210 --> 00:50:34.730 Mira Brancu: Interesting.
00:50:34.730 --> 00:50:42.919 Bernardo Ferdman: Group. So that strengthens the whole. So that's we're all joined together in our difference and uniqueness. So we're all similar because we're different.
00:50:43.040 --> 00:50:54.929 Bernardo Ferdman: Right. So that's kind of part of one way to do it. So we have to construct these multiple, these, these more complex views of collective identity, more multifaceted
00:50:55.380 --> 00:51:21.319 Bernardo Ferdman: for the second paradox around boundaries and norms. We have to recognize the paradox. We have to note our own internal ambivalence about boundaries and norms. Right I want to be. I want some norms. I want you to follow Norms, but I don't want to be so constrained. Well, there's a paradox here that I have to own. And so how do I acknowledge that multiple feeling, that ambivalence? So we have to engage across differences in spirit of learning and possibility. We have to
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:27.670 Bernardo Ferdman: expect to engage across different approaches for engaging across differences. And so
00:51:27.680 --> 00:51:55.270 Bernardo Ferdman: we have to coke so part of it is what you described, which is in a group or in a collective to together create the norms rather than assuming that my movie of how we're going to be together is yours. I don't know that I have to come together and say, Hey, how are we doing this? How do you like to do this? How do I like to do it right. Now, power obviously plays a role right? And so authority power. We have to understand how we manage that we have to create and use rules for dissent and rule breaking.
00:51:55.270 --> 00:52:00.170 Bernardo Ferdman: which is kind of paradoxical right? Do we have a space for people to truly dissent.
00:52:00.170 --> 00:52:02.719 Bernardo Ferdman: you know, and to break the rules right?
00:52:02.720 --> 00:52:30.680 Bernardo Ferdman: And so part of it is also, I think, creating a collective definition of the boundary that's based on shared values and also holding space for divergent values. And then the other part I mentioned the slippery slope we have to work with who's there, and then also make space for newcomers and their possible dissent or discomfort. Right? So how do we both say, Okay, here's who we are like right now, we're not using closed captions, but somebody might be listening to this, and then the machine that helps to create it right.
00:52:30.770 --> 00:52:32.538 Bernardo Ferdman: If if I was
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:34.567 Bernardo Ferdman: if I was
00:52:35.340 --> 00:52:39.010 Bernardo Ferdman: deaf right, maybe we would need to be talking in sign language. Right?
00:52:39.030 --> 00:53:08.570 Bernardo Ferdman: So. But we're not doing that so. But I'm recognizing that that might be a need under certain circumstances, and for comfort and discomfort. We have to understand that comfort always has limits and self-expression, self-determination have to happen in a context of mutual understanding and collaboration. I can't just run over you. And so it's really it's about sensitivity to each other and to each other's needs and and styles. And so that means engaging in ongoing dialogue and learning. So if I'm a leader and I have something that bothers me.
00:53:08.570 --> 00:53:15.989 Bernardo Ferdman: how do I go towards that thing that is frustrating and challenging, and try to engage with it in dialogue while also keeping some
00:53:16.050 --> 00:53:25.490 Bernardo Ferdman: norms and rules right so, or at least the goals of trying to what we're trying to do together. And then being in that uncomfortable space of growing and learning
00:53:25.490 --> 00:53:40.700 Bernardo Ferdman: together. So again, I mentioned dissent, promoting and accepting dissent in the context of improving and perfecting the society, the system, the group, right? I'm not asking for dissent to undermine it and ruin it. I'm asking it because it's about lifting all of us up.
00:53:40.700 --> 00:53:59.510 Bernardo Ferdman: And ultimately it's about learning to be uncomfortable to be comfortable with the discomfort, the discomfort of growth. When I go to the gym. My muscles ache a little bit, and that's a sign that we're growing right. So that's a metaphor for the kind of discomfort I'm talking about, and people who we don't understand are important in our collective work.
00:54:00.065 --> 00:54:06.640 Bernardo Ferdman: So I don't know if that's a solution completely. But it's a way to hold the paradox, and to learn, as we go.
00:54:07.180 --> 00:54:11.046 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I think my takeaway from all of this is
00:54:11.950 --> 00:54:16.179 Mira Brancu: just to be much more aware of
00:54:16.230 --> 00:54:20.090 Mira Brancu: what assumptions that I'm making that are really
00:54:20.110 --> 00:54:25.167 Mira Brancu: not not questioned. But they're my assumptions about
00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:33.693 Mira Brancu: You know what somebody wants or needs of me, or how to lean into a discussion, or you know that kind of thing. It reminds me
00:54:34.290 --> 00:54:35.550 Mira Brancu: also of
00:54:35.610 --> 00:54:37.386 Mira Brancu: 1. 1 of the
00:54:38.580 --> 00:54:57.980 Mira Brancu: items on an assessment that I use is we spend the right amount of time on discussions, and I've never had a team agree on what the right amount of time is because some people want more, and some people want less. But when you make an assumption of what the right amount of anything is.
00:54:58.010 --> 00:55:04.130 Mira Brancu: that's when we you get caught up in not really attending to what is needed. So
00:55:04.503 --> 00:55:15.160 Mira Brancu: that's that's a little teeny piece of many things that I've taken away from today, Bernardo. What is one quick thing before we close out that you want people to take away from today.
00:55:15.720 --> 00:55:35.899 Bernardo Ferdman: I think, develop one's self-awareness, be humble about one's assumptions and ask lots of questions. I think my Facebook motto, or whatever it's called, is, embrace, paradox, and ask lots of questions. I think we need to be curious and increase our awareness, and also be willing to learn and be influenced by others.
00:55:36.299 --> 00:56:01.689 Bernardo Ferdman: So I think it's yeah. It's an ongoing challenge. But I think, being grounded in this idea that we're just one piece of the puzzle that the the world our organizations need. We're all building a puzzle together, right? And we need everybody brings their own puzzle piece and part of inclusive leadership is creating that environment and space where everyone can add their puzzle piece and not confusing our own puzzle piece with the whole puzzle.
00:56:02.080 --> 00:56:07.439 Mira Brancu: Beautiful analogy. I love that if people want to work with you, where should they find you? Where can they go.
00:56:07.610 --> 00:56:27.530 Bernardo Ferdman: Well, my website is ferdmanconsulting.com. My last name consulting.com ferdmanconsulting dot com. That's probably the simplest way. I'm also on Linkedin easily found, and I think those are the 2 ways to reach me. I'd love to connect with people in your audience who are interested in some of my work.
00:56:27.540 --> 00:56:47.019 Bernardo Ferdman: And I also do this diversity and inclusion work in terms of you know, at this level, helping people learn how to be more inclusive in their behavior and bring inclusion to life, and also a coaching leadership, coaching for individuals and groups, and so glad to connect.
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:55.120 Mira Brancu: Perfect, perfect. Okay. Audience, what did you take away? Importantly, what is one small change that you can implement this week.
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.650 Mira Brancu: based on what you learn from Bernardo? Share it with us on Linkedin
00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:09.740 Mira Brancu: and on@talkradio.osc. At Mirabranco, at Bernardo Furdman, so that we could cheer you on
00:57:09.950 --> 00:57:26.739 Mira Brancu: and Talkradio dot Nysc is on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, twitch, apple, spotify Amazon podcasts all over the place, help us increase our visibility and reach an impact by leaving a review by listening to this episode later, and sharing with other people that you think might benefit
00:57:27.060 --> 00:57:28.020 Mira Brancu: and
00:57:28.550 --> 00:57:36.289 Mira Brancu: thank you to Talkradio dot Nyc. For hosting. I'm Dr. Mira Branco, your host of the Hard Skills show and thank you
00:57:36.720 --> 00:57:39.569 Mira Brancu: today for joining us. Dr. Bernardo Furdman.
00:57:39.850 --> 00:57:45.959 Mira Brancu: really appreciate all your insights, have a great rest of your day, wherever you're tuning in from everybody. Bye.
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