Tuesdays: 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EST)
EPISODE SUMMARY:
In work and life, many of us encounter groups with different norms, expectations, and beliefs. As we navigate the workplace, this flexibility can be helpful, except when it causes us to lose touch with our truer selves or deprives us of our deepest connections. We may be so responsive to others that we lose what makes us special. On the other hand, we may protect our identities so fiercely that we close ourselves off to the potentially positive influences of others. Based on personal and professional experience as psychologist in federal corrections, Dr. Lyn will help us learn how to identify and embrace our unique combination of life experience and world view and use them to connect with others, express our individuality, and manage seemingly conflicting roles.
ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Based on the experiences of a unlikely leader in federal corrections, listeners will be inspired to embrace the complexity of their identities and create ways to fit in, stand out, and make peace with seemingly conflicting roles in their own challenging work environments.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Dr. Tamara S. Lyn offers unique insights into leadership after decades of service in federal corrections. Her fascinating career as a psychologist-leader culminated in the role of Warden, where she was one of very few women, and even fewer psychologists, in the position. As a Warden during the pandemic, Dr. Lyn developed deep insights into crisis management, fostered psychological safety, and modeled mindfulness and emotional intelligence. She is the founder of High Ready Coaching and Consulting, supporting leaders in high-stakes, high-impact careers, including law enforcement, health care, and higher education. Dr. Lyn holds master’s and doctorate degrees in psychology from The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, and graduated with honors from Harvard College. She is a licensed psychologist, is Board certified in organizational and business consulting psychology, and is certified by the International Coaching Federation. Dr. Lyn is also a fellow of the American Psychological Association and a member of the Board of Directors.
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IF YOU ENJOYED THIS EPISODE, CAN WE ASK A FAVOR?
We do not receive any funding or sponsorship for this podcast. If you learned something and feel others could also benefit, please leave a positive review. Every review helps amplify our work and visibility. This is especially helpful for small women-owned boot-strapped businesses. Simply go to the bottom of the Apple Podcast page to enter a review. Thank you!
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
Guest Website: www.highreadycoaching.com
Our website: www.gotowerscope.com
#LeadershipIdentity #Leadershipcoaching #LeadershipDevelopment #TheHardSkills #NavigatingComplexity
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
00:00:52.960 --> 00:01:04.049 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome to the hard skills show where we discuss how to develop the nuanced hard skills meaning the most challenging soft skills needed to make a real impact through your leadership.
00:01:04.530 --> 00:01:09.660 Mira Brancu: Now, how do we navigate the fine line between being flexible
00:01:10.020 --> 00:01:13.140 Mira Brancu: and adaptable, and being true to ourselves
00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:16.740 Mira Brancu: from being influenced by others in order to grow
00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.440 Mira Brancu: to influencing others as leaders.
00:01:19.510 --> 00:01:22.819 Mira Brancu: How do we reconcile conflicts between these 2 States?
00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.929 Mira Brancu: That's what we'll be delving into today with Dr. Tamara, S. Lin.
00:01:28.360 --> 00:01:51.450 Mira Brancu: And I just think this is a really beautiful way to close out our season. Four's theme on navigating complexity, and also because, having just learned that here in the Us. Where this is airing, Kamala Harris, a black and Asian woman, just received the Democratic nomination to run for President, and you'll learn about all of these connections when we get started.
00:01:51.810 --> 00:01:54.900 Mira Brancu: I'm your host, Dr. Mirabu. I'm a leadership
00:01:55.080 --> 00:02:15.020 Mira Brancu: consulting and coaching psychologist, founder of the Towerscope Leadership Academy and associate professor, a psychology today columnist, author of the Millennials Guide to Workplace politics and had my own leadership career before transitioning to helping other teams and helping high achieving women navigate their leadership complexities.
00:02:15.290 --> 00:02:26.860 Mira Brancu: Now, before I introduce you to our guest today, this is just another reminder that applications are now open for the fall. 2024 cohort of our towerscope Leadership Academy.
00:02:26.860 --> 00:02:45.920 Mira Brancu: We did have a Snafu with the application app. So we're actually extending applications through at least August 5, th possibly longer. It depends. If we are able to fill up our cohort sooner, so apply sooner than later, because we do fill up our cohort as applications come in.
00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:57.750 Mira Brancu: Now the Tla focuses on building a community of high achieving growth. Minded leaders looking to expertly navigate today's complex workplace challenges within disrupted industries and make a greater impact.
00:02:57.950 --> 00:03:10.810 Mira Brancu: Who's right for this? Well, if you're experiencing attention or misalignment between your expectations, organizational culture values or goals, this community is right for you. And this episode with Tammy is right for you, too.
00:03:11.140 --> 00:03:27.919 Mira Brancu: If you have a desire to be more intentional, strategic, and effective on your leadership journey or feel concerned about your leadership trajectory. The Tla offers a structured research backed learning community to take a reflective pause and get support for your next steps
00:03:27.940 --> 00:03:31.940 Mira Brancu: you can learn more and apply at go tower, scope.com.
00:03:32.040 --> 00:03:34.229 Mira Brancu: and click on Leadership Academy.
00:03:34.670 --> 00:03:35.430 Mira Brancu: Now.
00:03:35.570 --> 00:03:37.620 Mira Brancu: speaking of
00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:40.179 Mira Brancu: taking a reflective pause.
00:03:40.650 --> 00:03:53.689 Mira Brancu: this is a great time to introduce you to our guest today. Dr. Tamara Slynn is a psychologist who served in leadership roles within Federal corrections, ultimately serving as one of the few women.
00:03:53.910 --> 00:03:56.410 Mira Brancu: and even one of the fewer psychologists
00:03:56.460 --> 00:03:58.349 Mira Brancu: in the role of Warden
00:03:58.390 --> 00:04:00.699 Mira Brancu: for the Federal Bureau of Prisons
00:04:01.210 --> 00:04:12.559 Mira Brancu: as a warden. During the pandemic. Doctor Lynn developed deep insights into crisis management, how to foster psychological safety and how to model mindfulness and emotional intelligence.
00:04:12.820 --> 00:04:23.740 Mira Brancu: She is also the founder of high, ready coaching and consulting, supporting leaders in high-stakes, high impact careers, including law enforcement, healthcare and higher education.
00:04:23.810 --> 00:04:27.609 Mira Brancu: Dr. Lynn holds master's and doctoral degrees in psychology
00:04:27.660 --> 00:04:39.220 Mira Brancu: from the University of Michigan, graduating with honors from Harvard, is board certified in organizational business, consulting psychology, and certified by the International Coaching Federation.
00:04:39.410 --> 00:04:44.449 Mira Brancu: Dr. Lynn says, I can call her Tammy, so welcome and great to have you on the show. Tammy.
00:04:45.400 --> 00:04:50.699 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So so happy to be with you. I'm honored to be part of the program. Thank you for having me.
00:04:50.700 --> 00:04:58.989 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So. Let's start with your unique leadership career, trajectory and identity. Because
00:04:59.372 --> 00:05:05.899 Mira Brancu: you're someone who planned to go into marriage and family therapy, and you ended up as a warden
00:05:05.910 --> 00:05:08.500 Mira Brancu: for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. How did that happen?
00:05:09.630 --> 00:05:18.089 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Well, I tell students all the time to be really open to trying new things, because my path was one where I
00:05:18.470 --> 00:05:28.269 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: took stock of my strengths and was able to pivot when I needed to. So, for example, I started training in marriage and family therapy
00:05:28.570 --> 00:05:32.710 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: pretty quickly realized that I was not very good with young kids.
00:05:35.506 --> 00:05:39.660 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I was grown up. Who? Who? It didn't really play well.
00:05:39.840 --> 00:05:46.230 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and I thought I need to rethink this child and family may not serve me or them.
00:05:46.530 --> 00:05:48.980 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And while I was trying to figure that out.
00:05:49.060 --> 00:05:50.939 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I took a part-time job
00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:56.390 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: doing psychological assessments for the Juvenile Court in Detroit.
00:05:56.460 --> 00:05:58.730 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: near where I went to graduate school.
00:05:58.940 --> 00:06:02.870 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So I would go to juvenile detention centers, and I would meet with kids, and I would
00:06:02.880 --> 00:06:09.240 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: do my assessments and make recommendations to the judges about what services and support they would need.
00:06:10.190 --> 00:06:20.620 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: But I found that when I would turn in my reports, and I would hand over my recommendations. I knew nothing about what happened to these kids, and it felt very unresolved.
00:06:20.620 --> 00:06:21.280 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:33.289 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So it occurred to me that if I were working inside those facilities I would be involved from beginning to end, and have a part in that entire process.
00:06:33.290 --> 00:06:33.670 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:06:33.670 --> 00:06:44.820 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So I actually switched my training. I extended school for a year, and I, trained in a psychiatric prison in the State of Michigan.
00:06:45.070 --> 00:07:03.379 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: found that I loved it. I loved the variety of the work. I felt really useful and just got terrific training, and that was the start of my career in corrections. It was realizing that I wasn't going to be very good at the 1st thing that I tried, but that I could find something else that I really loved.
00:07:03.790 --> 00:07:14.689 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I could really relate to that, because so so the flip for me is, I did start out working with kids. I was a school counselor before I was a clinical psychologist.
00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.890 Mira Brancu: and I did that because
00:07:18.050 --> 00:07:21.620 Mira Brancu: I knew I was good with kids. I knew I enjoyed counseling.
00:07:21.640 --> 00:07:26.680 Mira Brancu: and I thought, Okay, well, that makes sense school counselor. Right?
00:07:27.450 --> 00:07:29.879 Mira Brancu: what I didn't realize was
00:07:30.080 --> 00:07:35.749 Mira Brancu: that just because you work with the children within a setting
00:07:35.910 --> 00:07:46.370 Mira Brancu: does not mean that those are the only people you're working with. As you know, it's a system right? And so the complexity required to
00:07:46.560 --> 00:08:13.050 Mira Brancu: manage and navigate different agendas, different desires for the kids wanted something for themselves. They wanted some level of privacy. The parents, though, and the teachers needed some level of insight and information from me navigating that confidentiality was difficult, and the entire experience made me realize that even if I was good at something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right career for me.
00:08:13.140 --> 00:08:17.990 Mira Brancu: And I think sort of that combination of taking stock of your strengths like you did.
00:08:18.010 --> 00:08:23.640 Mira Brancu: and also realizing just because you're good at something doesn't mean it's like the right path
00:08:23.880 --> 00:08:29.609 Mira Brancu: in that way helps you sort of continue to hone and hone like, what is the right
00:08:29.640 --> 00:08:39.999 Mira Brancu: system, the right type of organization, the right thing to do, that all combines to fit kind of where you might land right.
00:08:40.378 --> 00:08:50.210 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Yes, yes, and I'm grateful that I stayed curious even after I was set on the correctional psychology path, because once I was in that system.
00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:56.906 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I became so interested in all of the other things that go into keeping a facility running.
00:08:57.580 --> 00:09:07.990 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: How do you keep people safe? How do you keep the lights on. How do you interact with the community? How do you build teams and motivate people in a really really difficult
00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:18.829 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: job? Right? So there were other opportunities. Once I became a correctional psychologist that led me into the executive path.
00:09:19.190 --> 00:09:21.110 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Ultimately too important.
00:09:21.560 --> 00:09:28.039 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And that is a very unique thing about you, too. There's a lot of unique things about you, but that you know
00:09:28.040 --> 00:09:52.470 Mira Brancu: not. Everybody like leans into gosh! I'm really interested in the operational infrastructure of this building, and how it runs. You lean into that which is unusual for a psychologist to do which helped you? Really set yourself up well for a leadership role where you do you? You do need to be thinking about those kinds of things. Not just one lane of effort, not your just your technical expertise.
00:09:52.610 --> 00:09:57.209 Mira Brancu: right? But like the entire breadth of what it takes to run a facility.
00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:02.380 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Yes, yes, and that especially came in handy once I was leading those teams.
00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:15.529 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and I really had to be sure to understand the work that they were doing, not only to be able to evaluate it, but also to be able to support it, and to understand what some of the barriers were for them.
00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:18.849 Mira Brancu: Let's take a step back for a second.
00:10:19.314 --> 00:10:23.049 Mira Brancu: For those who don't know what is correctional psychology.
00:10:23.060 --> 00:10:24.780 Mira Brancu: What is a warden?
00:10:24.930 --> 00:10:30.210 Mira Brancu: And what do they do within the Federal level of the Bureau prisons.
00:10:30.210 --> 00:10:42.289 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Sure, sure. So correctional psychology is psychology in a correctional institution, it may be for young offenders, it may be for adults.
00:10:42.785 --> 00:10:45.580 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: It may be for short term
00:10:45.640 --> 00:10:48.319 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: stays, it may be, for longer term.
00:10:48.430 --> 00:11:05.169 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: It may be working with chronically and severely, mentally, ill people typically who have not received services prior to being incarcerated. And they had gone undiagnosed, typically for a very long period of time. So they need a lot of support once they're in
00:11:05.772 --> 00:11:20.419 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: sometimes there are just situational circumstances that require psychological support, and we also do some educational testing and also a lot of risk management. So assessing for risk of self harm
00:11:20.490 --> 00:11:23.019 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: or risk of harm to other people.
00:11:23.140 --> 00:11:25.110 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: But ultimately what we're doing
00:11:25.140 --> 00:11:30.820 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: is, and how I was able to prove my value to people who were not psychologists in that system
00:11:30.940 --> 00:11:32.940 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: was to
00:11:33.070 --> 00:11:45.880 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: do our best to keep people stable and therefore keep the environment safe, right? Because a psychologically stable person is going to be less of a risk to someone else.
00:11:46.510 --> 00:11:47.210 Mira Brancu: Umhm. Okay.
00:11:47.210 --> 00:11:51.600 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Gordon is basically the CEO of an institution.
00:11:51.820 --> 00:12:12.760 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So the Warden is responsible for everything from safety and security and healthcare services, mental health services, but also budgeting and policy, development and human resources functions like discipline, which was probably one of the least favorite things
00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:16.759 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: had to do. But, you really are
00:12:17.060 --> 00:12:26.860 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: overseeing the teams that are contributing to a safe institution. And then you're also communicating with the community that the institution is in
00:12:27.290 --> 00:12:29.139 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and you're interacting with
00:12:29.672 --> 00:12:33.110 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: other leadership in the agency, who have their own
00:12:33.310 --> 00:12:36.400 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: directives and priorities as well.
00:12:37.270 --> 00:12:37.880 Mira Brancu: That sounds.
00:12:37.880 --> 00:12:46.320 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: You're incredibly complex. Yeah, there were a lot of esports. There were at the time that I left 122 facilities each with a warden
00:12:46.390 --> 00:12:49.964 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: who was responsible for their own staff and their own
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:52.260 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: facility.
00:12:54.330 --> 00:12:57.379 Mira Brancu: and yeah, and so and then the federal level?
00:12:58.099 --> 00:13:00.419 Mira Brancu: How might that different, from a state level.
00:13:01.780 --> 00:13:10.111 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Well it. There are different categories of crime that are handled at the Federal or the State level.
00:13:11.050 --> 00:13:15.239 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: there is the potential for someone to be placed
00:13:15.520 --> 00:13:25.759 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: out of the State where they were charged and adjudicated. So sometimes the geographic area that somebody will be placed in will widen.
00:13:25.790 --> 00:13:45.699 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: It's a very complex system, but it's also one that has a lot of resources. And I was grateful. I actually began my training in a state prison and joined the Bureau of Prisons later. And you really do have access to more people and resources in order to
00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:48.230 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to meet everyone's needs.
00:13:48.870 --> 00:13:50.790 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and so
00:13:51.020 --> 00:14:13.870 Mira Brancu: 1st of all, this is so interesting. Because I don't think a lot of people realize just how many psychologists work in prison systems right? And for the very reasons that you described, and when when you picture Warden of a prison right, and especially of a Federal prison. They probably don't picture a woman. They certainly would not picture a psychologist
00:14:13.950 --> 00:14:16.260 Mira Brancu: right? And
00:14:16.862 --> 00:14:19.329 Mira Brancu: knowing a little bit about you, Tammy.
00:14:19.540 --> 00:14:21.790 Mira Brancu: they certainly probably don't
00:14:21.870 --> 00:14:25.339 Mira Brancu: picture a seemingly mild, mannered.
00:14:25.410 --> 00:14:28.435 Mira Brancu: emotionally intelligent person like you.
00:14:29.690 --> 00:14:38.319 Mira Brancu: So when we come back from the ad break, I'd love to dig in like, why might your combined set of unexpected attributes
00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:43.740 Mira Brancu: and training be important to understanding the needs of this population and serving in that kind of leadership role.
00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:46.490 Mira Brancu: So everybody you are
00:14:46.831 --> 00:14:59.099 Mira Brancu: listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabu and our guest, Dr. Tamara Slynn. We air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. Eastern time. If you would like to join our online audience right now and ask
00:14:59.430 --> 00:15:10.099 Mira Brancu: her a question, or us a question that we can answer in real time. You can find us on Linkedin or youtube@talkradio.nyc. And we'll be right back with our guest in just a moment.
00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:42.290 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Doctor Mira Broncu and our guest today. Doctor Tammy Lynn, who was previously Warden of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and now is an executive coach and coaching and consulting psychologist. And we're just sort of exploring
00:17:42.550 --> 00:17:56.169 Mira Brancu: how a seemingly mild, mannered emotionally intelligent psychologist and who also identifies as a woman ends up in this
00:17:56.530 --> 00:18:14.100 Mira Brancu: interesting role of warden, and more importantly, because it is sort of different than our usual expectations of what we might perceive or imagine. When somebody says the word warden, what who you picture? Right? You don't picture those sets of attributes. I'm curious
00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:28.980 Mira Brancu: from your perspective. Why might these combined sets of attributes be important and your training be important to understanding the needs of the population and sort of what you bring, or what you brought to the role.
00:18:33.320 --> 00:18:38.759 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Thank you for asking that question 2 things come to mind. The 1st is that
00:18:38.820 --> 00:18:45.900 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I didn't think that I was such an unusual addition to the agency, because when I joined in 2,001,
00:18:46.420 --> 00:18:49.939 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: the director of our agency was a female psychologist.
00:18:50.840 --> 00:18:53.030 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Dr. Kathy Hawkstein
00:18:53.100 --> 00:19:00.929 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: was a role model for me when I joined the agency, and when I saw that there was a female psychologist leading that agency, I thought.
00:19:00.980 --> 00:19:03.070 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: but the sky was the limit for me.
00:19:03.820 --> 00:19:05.060 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: It turned out
00:19:05.210 --> 00:19:13.160 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that that was really quite unusual, and the agency did turn out to be much more conventional and traditional
00:19:13.580 --> 00:19:18.540 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and mail oriented than than I had believed, but that
00:19:19.110 --> 00:19:25.210 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: modeling was really important for me. When I was 1st starting out, I saw what I could become.
00:19:25.690 --> 00:19:27.899 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: The other thing is that I think that
00:19:28.790 --> 00:19:33.940 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: the things that make me a good psychologist were also skills that
00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.599 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: helped me to lead inside institutions. For example.
00:19:38.430 --> 00:19:40.159 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I was. I was
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:43.240 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: shaped to be a deep listener.
00:19:44.050 --> 00:19:48.079 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and psychologists are also great problem solvers.
00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:55.499 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: They are really good at scanning the environment, collecting information and coming to a decision.
00:19:56.010 --> 00:19:56.680 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Aye.
00:19:57.080 --> 00:20:00.859 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in a really efficient and thoughtful way.
00:20:01.520 --> 00:20:06.819 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Psychologists also really have a lot of faith in the potential for people
00:20:07.060 --> 00:20:09.210 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: change and improve.
00:20:09.530 --> 00:20:11.540 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and for situations
00:20:11.570 --> 00:20:16.180 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to improve as well. So there's a certain kind of
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:17.450 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: hopefulness
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:22.470 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and positivity that I think a psychologist brings to the role
00:20:22.770 --> 00:20:26.039 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that is just part of our constitution.
00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:30.750 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and it's easier for us to tap than perhaps other people.
00:20:30.950 --> 00:20:35.670 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: We're also trained to think about things like, how do people learn best?
00:20:35.790 --> 00:20:38.070 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: How do you keep people motivated?
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:45.409 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: those sorts of things are all part of leadership, and especially in
00:20:45.670 --> 00:20:48.539 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: a demanding or a stressful environment?
00:20:49.930 --> 00:20:51.539 Mira Brancu: Those are great. I haven't
00:20:53.310 --> 00:20:58.550 Mira Brancu: fully thought about all of those characteristics as a part of my training.
00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:05.639 Mira Brancu: And you're right. Yeah, I mean, I I think we get a lot more of that in our training for sure.
00:21:05.840 --> 00:21:09.270 Mira Brancu: And you know, as you were talking about having this role, model
00:21:09.320 --> 00:21:12.909 Mira Brancu: the director, who was both a psychologist and a woman, and
00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:15.960 Mira Brancu: kind of how how easy it made it
00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:17.709 Mira Brancu: for you to
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.020 Mira Brancu: then imagine yourself
00:21:20.445 --> 00:21:22.790 Mira Brancu: you know in, in lots of roles.
00:21:22.800 --> 00:21:26.361 Mira Brancu: right in leadership roles within that organization.
00:21:27.020 --> 00:21:33.069 Mira Brancu: as a woman who served yourself now in a high level leadership role within Federal Government sector.
00:21:33.290 --> 00:21:42.989 Mira Brancu: who, I also suspect, might not have seen a black and Asian woman in a high Federal Government role until now. I'm wondering, you know.
00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:46.649 Mira Brancu: Would you be sort of open to exploring
00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:54.479 Mira Brancu: Kamala Harris's nomination like, ha! What? How are you sort of making sense of this in terms of your experience
00:21:54.590 --> 00:21:57.249 Mira Brancu: in terms of seeing her in that position.
00:21:58.068 --> 00:22:04.290 Mira Brancu: As you're thinking even about your own sort of next steps of influence.
00:22:04.360 --> 00:22:13.429 Mira Brancu: as well as kind of what you might be offering to others as a mentor, as somebody that people look up to as well.
00:22:16.330 --> 00:22:21.710 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I think that these recent developments are causing a lot of us to think about our
00:22:22.210 --> 00:22:27.910 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: expectations and beliefs about women in leadership.
00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:36.259 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and what she demonstrates for me, and what I relate to is this tension between, on one hand.
00:22:36.790 --> 00:22:40.870 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: being expected to be in command and control.
00:22:43.130 --> 00:22:48.130 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And, on the other hand, being expected to be approachable and warm
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:50.270 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and responsive.
00:22:50.879 --> 00:22:52.559 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Now I'm threatening.
00:22:53.250 --> 00:22:56.829 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and you're supposed to do both of those things equally well.
00:22:58.340 --> 00:23:03.239 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: but who can do both of those things equally well all of the time. Right.
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.220 Mira Brancu: And does it really matter? Because sometimes people will
00:23:06.370 --> 00:23:09.843 Mira Brancu: still find you threatening, regardless of what you try.
00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:16.400 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Yes, if you are too relaxed and too approachable, you're not considered serious.
00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:23.539 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: If you are too formal, you're considered aloof and hard to get to know.
00:23:23.550 --> 00:23:34.209 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and in the meantime you also, we all have a self-perception that might not be either of those things which can cause a lot of confusion as well.
00:23:34.745 --> 00:23:47.949 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: But I I appreciate how she has had to navigate the expectations of a woman leader that can seem contradictory, and having to use a lot of judgment
00:23:48.490 --> 00:23:51.039 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: about when to lead. With which
00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:53.777 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: set of norms
00:23:54.840 --> 00:23:59.650 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I would say also, you know, a lot of us are talking about how she represents
00:23:59.790 --> 00:24:02.960 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: multiple identities, whether it's her
00:24:03.030 --> 00:24:04.390 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: heritage
00:24:04.962 --> 00:24:14.419 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: or her professional background. You know, I myself am of Jamaican heritage, and I I know just the type of
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:16.689 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: upbringing that she
00:24:17.182 --> 00:24:23.320 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: would have experienced. Except Jamaicans, are a mixture of many, many things.
00:24:23.831 --> 00:24:31.540 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So there's another layer of complexity, of identity there. She has a history of being
00:24:31.810 --> 00:24:38.299 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: a prosecutor, but there are lots of strong feelings about whether
00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:50.049 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: African Americans should be participating in the justice system. I know I experienced that myself. You know there were some people who were very pleased to see me in a leadership role
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:53.480 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: because I represented something
00:24:53.610 --> 00:24:58.472 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to them about the influence and the
00:24:59.510 --> 00:25:00.420 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: the
00:25:01.343 --> 00:25:09.479 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: authority of a black woman in that space it was meaningful to some people, and there were other people who were very
00:25:09.870 --> 00:25:14.570 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: suspicious of that, and who did not accept that. So
00:25:15.271 --> 00:25:21.740 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: she is an example of someone who's carrying a lot of people's projections onto her.
00:25:22.010 --> 00:25:28.699 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and ultimately I think she would say, she is trying to be authentic.
00:25:29.270 --> 00:25:31.470 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: But the rest of us
00:25:31.850 --> 00:25:32.910 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: up to
00:25:33.830 --> 00:25:39.510 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: give her some grace that what we're seeing is is really who she is, and it's gonna be complex.
00:25:40.020 --> 00:25:41.280 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah,
00:25:43.060 --> 00:25:48.649 Mira Brancu: that's I hadn't. I also hadn't piece together the impact of
00:25:50.430 --> 00:25:51.510 Mira Brancu: being
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:59.259 Mira Brancu: someone who identifies as a black woman or just black within the prison system, and how that might be perceived as differently.
00:25:59.597 --> 00:26:02.450 Mira Brancu: By different people. That makes a lot of sense.
00:26:02.510 --> 00:26:07.179 Mira Brancu: and so interesting, and it. Just between that and just, you know, kind of what you're sharing.
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:08.650 Mira Brancu: I'm wondering
00:26:09.130 --> 00:26:10.430 Mira Brancu: what were the
00:26:10.570 --> 00:26:21.680 Mira Brancu: sort of combination of contradictory expectations and challenges you might have experienced in your career. And how did you navigate those things?
00:26:22.610 --> 00:26:27.200 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Yes. So one that comes to mind is that
00:26:27.800 --> 00:26:28.640 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in the
00:26:29.170 --> 00:26:30.620 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Federal system
00:26:30.990 --> 00:26:33.910 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I was both a helper
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:37.049 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and an enforcer of rules.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:41.470 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: so I had to be both a psychologist
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:43.360 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: who could
00:26:44.747 --> 00:26:47.410 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: be supportive and
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:49.410 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: empathetic
00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:50.510 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and
00:26:50.790 --> 00:26:52.699 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: old confidences.
00:26:53.110 --> 00:26:57.210 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and have the best interest of
00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:02.269 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: an incarcerated person at heart when they were part of my caseload.
00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:03.970 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: But
00:27:04.280 --> 00:27:05.570 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: there were other
00:27:05.780 --> 00:27:12.360 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: parts of my day when my role was about security and safety, and
00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:15.939 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I had to have that cap on
00:27:16.100 --> 00:27:21.019 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: as I navigated corridors, you know, looking for
00:27:21.724 --> 00:27:25.289 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: security threats or intervening, and
00:27:25.922 --> 00:27:33.100 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: disturbances, or so there were ways that I had to wear multiple hats.
00:27:33.530 --> 00:27:35.290 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and someone may not
00:27:35.370 --> 00:27:38.369 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: quite know. What had I had on at any given time?
00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:47.590 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: That would be true. People in custody. And that would be true of Co. Workers and leaders, you know. Is she? Is she thinking from the perspective of
00:27:47.900 --> 00:27:53.170 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: staff member? Does she have the back of staff members. Is she part of our team
00:27:53.430 --> 00:27:57.099 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: right? Or is my psychologist?
00:27:57.510 --> 00:28:03.949 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Really, I'm going to hold what I'm saying in confidence. Is my psychologist really thinking about
00:28:04.120 --> 00:28:05.150 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: what's best
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:11.539 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: for me. So there were ways that I had to try to communicate as clearly as I could
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:16.839 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: what what function I was performing at any given time.
00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:21.869 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and that is not an easy thing to do that that takes some
00:28:22.180 --> 00:28:28.539 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: trial and error, and some mistakes, and learning along the way
00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:31.329 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and over time you develop a reputation.
00:28:31.410 --> 00:28:36.949 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And people get to know and have more confidence in you. But
00:28:37.260 --> 00:28:38.830 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that can take some time.
00:28:41.393 --> 00:28:42.220 Mira Brancu: That sounds
00:28:42.270 --> 00:28:43.980 Mira Brancu: incredibly
00:28:44.740 --> 00:28:57.045 Mira Brancu: difficult, complicated, challenging. And wow! What a skill set! Once you gain that skill set right like you can pretty much navigate anything once you gain that skill set.
00:28:57.470 --> 00:28:57.860 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So.
00:28:58.166 --> 00:29:03.680 Mira Brancu: When when we come back from the next ad break. I would love to hear what you learned
00:29:03.750 --> 00:29:05.789 Mira Brancu: about how to do this.
00:29:05.800 --> 00:29:14.670 Mira Brancu: What would you tell somebody else who's just starting out, or who is experiencing the same kind of like complexity and challenges in different expectations
00:29:14.990 --> 00:29:18.859 Mira Brancu: about you know how to navigate, what skill sets
00:29:19.222 --> 00:29:22.970 Mira Brancu: are necessary to pick up, to be able to do this. Well.
00:29:23.260 --> 00:29:43.309 Mira Brancu: So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mara Broncu and our guest today, Doctor Tamara Slyn. We air on Tuesdays at 5 Pm. Eastern. If you'd like to ask us a question right now it's airing. Live on Linkedin or Youtube at Talkradio, Nyc. And we'll be right back in just a moment with our guest.
00:31:44.300 --> 00:31:49.639 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Doctor Mara Broncu and our guest today, Doctor Tammy Lynn.
00:31:49.670 --> 00:32:01.850 Mira Brancu: who is the high, ready coaching and consulting principal and previous warden within the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and we were just talking about
00:32:02.180 --> 00:32:08.040 Mira Brancu: balancing a variety of paradoxes and expectations of
00:32:08.656 --> 00:32:17.459 Mira Brancu: your roles, and one was helper versus enforcer, right? Psychologists and security and safety.
00:32:19.030 --> 00:32:26.689 Mira Brancu: what did you learn about like the the skill set necessary to be able to do that, to toggle back and forth, or to even reconcile.
00:32:28.630 --> 00:32:29.320 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Well.
00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:43.580 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I think that it's always best to start from points of common ground when you're trying to navigate differences it can be hard to see, but they are usually there.
00:32:43.860 --> 00:32:46.670 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and in my case it meant that
00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:57.250 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: even though I was a psychologist, I was called Doctor, there was a certain formality around people's interactions with me.
00:32:57.580 --> 00:33:09.190 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I always tried to find ways for people to feel like I was more accessible to them, and that I was in service of them. Because again
00:33:09.742 --> 00:33:16.030 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I'm a mentally stable person, is a safer person, and that's what I tried to bring
00:33:16.060 --> 00:33:18.490 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to to that environment.
00:33:20.110 --> 00:33:22.379 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: so I would. I would
00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:23.989 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: always accept
00:33:25.670 --> 00:33:27.183 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: projects, tasks,
00:33:28.010 --> 00:33:45.880 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: responsibilities that anyone else would do. I tried to find common ground in the work that we did every day, so that I wasn't looking as if I held myself higher than anyone else, or that I wouldn't
00:33:46.723 --> 00:34:03.509 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: get my hands into the same things that everybody else would, did do so. That would mean filling in for correctional officers when they were not able to be on their post, or responding to emergencies or conducting searches, or doing the things that
00:34:03.900 --> 00:34:24.990 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: would help me to understand the people that I was working with every day, and what they were experiencing, but also showing that I could be shoulder to shoulder with those folks. And I've gotten feedback over the years from people who remember things that I did long ago that I have no recollection of.
00:34:25.120 --> 00:34:37.680 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: but that they noticed and appreciated because I was able to show that I was one of them so finding common ground is important.
00:34:38.100 --> 00:34:46.480 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: You're also reminding me that you just yesterday I was in a coaching session with a client, and I had a chance to
00:34:46.690 --> 00:34:48.060 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: challenge him
00:34:48.380 --> 00:34:56.040 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to address some procrastination that he was dealing with. He was not wanting to do some unpleasant tasks.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:03.549 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and I asked him to find the point of fascination in the thing you're looking to avoid.
00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:11.589 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And I'm thinking that we can do that with our colleagues and our coworkers and the people that we serve as well.
00:35:12.350 --> 00:35:17.869 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: There it open yourself up to that little piece of fascination or curiosity
00:35:18.670 --> 00:35:25.510 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in the thing that otherwise might make you uncomfortable, or the conversation that make might make you uncomfortable.
00:35:26.150 --> 00:35:30.419 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and that really helps people to make connections with each other.
00:35:30.560 --> 00:35:33.070 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and to and to build bridges.
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:35.794 Mira Brancu: I love that
00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:40.089 Mira Brancu: So if I'm to, if I pull out some of these things
00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:47.870 Mira Brancu: for folks number one be relatable find a human connection. Number 2
00:35:48.434 --> 00:35:57.899 Mira Brancu: number 3 demonstrate some empathy, or do some things that other people do around you in order to understand what it's like to do their role.
00:35:58.090 --> 00:36:02.619 Mira Brancu: And this last one that I really especially love is
00:36:03.218 --> 00:36:09.850 Mira Brancu: don't wear your. This is what I wrote down here. Don't wear your role as a protective shield.
00:36:10.350 --> 00:36:19.019 Mira Brancu: some of us, where our role, especially like those of us who are over educated, over accomplished.
00:36:19.020 --> 00:36:45.620 Mira Brancu: we wear those things as either a badge of honor or a protective shield. No one can touch me now, because I finally got to a place where I've got all the degrees, and I've accomplished all the things, and but that is not relatable. I mean, that won't make you more effective as a human being within, you know a large complex system, like a bureaus or a healthcare system, or a large organization, and that kind of thing. And that's what I'm hearing
00:36:45.810 --> 00:36:47.070 Mira Brancu: that you did, is
00:36:47.150 --> 00:36:49.180 Mira Brancu: you? You you didn't
00:36:49.830 --> 00:36:56.999 Mira Brancu: directly identify as your one role. You extracted yourself from that and said.
00:36:57.040 --> 00:37:04.749 Mira Brancu: my identity is lots of things, and I can do and be lots of things within this organization, and that helped people not sort of
00:37:05.230 --> 00:37:09.689 Mira Brancu: also clamp on to. She's that one thing, and that's the only thing she can be.
00:37:10.040 --> 00:37:21.289 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Yes, and I am laughing because I am remembering. Early in my career I had a lesson from a lieutenant who reminded me that there were times when I could drop my role.
00:37:21.682 --> 00:37:27.949 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I'm walking down the corridor. It's late at night. I'm walking down the corridor. I run into him and he says, Hey, Doc, how are you doing?
00:37:28.160 --> 00:37:34.829 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And I proceed to tell him how I'm doing? I go into this long answer about how I am.
00:37:35.850 --> 00:37:37.849 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: He stops me, and he says, Doc.
00:37:38.130 --> 00:37:41.970 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: when we ask you how you doing? We're just saying Hello.
00:37:43.520 --> 00:37:47.649 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that I have. I've never forgotten that interaction, because
00:37:47.930 --> 00:37:50.729 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: he he did have to tell me that
00:37:50.910 --> 00:37:53.150 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: it could have let me go on
00:37:53.490 --> 00:37:57.990 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and embarrass myself if I did it again with a different person.
00:37:58.050 --> 00:38:01.410 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: But he he liked me enough to tell me
00:38:01.870 --> 00:38:03.940 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that this is what he meant
00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:15.510 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: right, and I had a chance to correct myself. And we're friends to this day. This was 25 years ago. So that that was just he's wanting a human connection.
00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:16.130 Mira Brancu: He's 1.
00:38:16.130 --> 00:38:19.670 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: An interaction outside of my role
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:27.659 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and he was kind enough to school me on what he meant. We're just saying Hello.
00:38:28.090 --> 00:38:29.610 Mira Brancu: Yeah, just say, hello.
00:38:29.610 --> 00:38:31.568 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Hello! Is just not below.
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:36.540 Mira Brancu: But what does it mean? That's really funny.
00:38:37.484 --> 00:38:42.220 Mira Brancu: Now, let's add another layer of complexity you served during the pandemic.
00:38:42.460 --> 00:38:46.699 Mira Brancu: Were there additional lessons learned, or things that
00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:51.409 Mira Brancu: you had to do that were either different or new.
00:38:51.530 --> 00:38:56.189 Mira Brancu: in the heightened expectations and challenges. During that time.
00:38:57.460 --> 00:38:59.620 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Yeah. So I
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:08.780 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: us to go back out into the field and was assigned a facility in North Carolina, and I arrived
00:39:09.060 --> 00:39:11.859 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in mid-march 2020,
00:39:11.950 --> 00:39:14.130 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: just as we were beginning
00:39:14.350 --> 00:39:15.530 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to mask.
00:39:15.600 --> 00:39:18.380 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and realized that we had a situation
00:39:19.162 --> 00:39:27.480 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: we hadn't yet locked down, but we were in the in the beginning stages. So I arrived in my 1st warden spot with ideas about
00:39:27.620 --> 00:39:34.939 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: improving employee engagement and building resilience and community building.
00:39:35.260 --> 00:39:38.660 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: not realizing that I would be trying to do those things
00:39:38.790 --> 00:39:43.810 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in a crisis. So it's a tremendous learning experience for me.
00:39:44.212 --> 00:39:45.740 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And one of the
00:39:45.930 --> 00:39:49.049 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: things that I learned was that
00:39:50.100 --> 00:39:54.399 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: there is a lot of value in being confidence that
00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:56.909 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: you know enough
00:39:57.250 --> 00:40:04.550 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to be able to figure it out right. You know enough. You've had enough past experience
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.180 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that you can figure out what to do when you don't know what to do.
00:40:08.570 --> 00:40:11.980 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And there's this concept in psychology called agile learning
00:40:12.170 --> 00:40:13.340 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: where you
00:40:13.410 --> 00:40:27.290 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: draw on past experience and previous knowledge from a familiar situation, and then you're confronted with an unfamiliar situation. But you find ways to apply what you know to this novel situation
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.809 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: the early days of Covid were very much trial and error.
00:40:32.130 --> 00:40:32.830 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and
00:40:34.270 --> 00:40:36.810 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: figuring it out as we go along.
00:40:37.318 --> 00:40:42.250 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And it was important not only to have confidence that you could figure it out.
00:40:43.080 --> 00:40:45.099 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: but also that
00:40:45.900 --> 00:40:48.900 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: perfect did not need to be the enemy of the good
00:40:49.830 --> 00:40:55.410 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that good enough was going to be okay. For now until we could find something better.
00:40:55.630 --> 00:40:56.410 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And
00:40:56.520 --> 00:41:01.659 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: for psychologists, that's a bit of a challenge, right? Because we want to
00:41:02.090 --> 00:41:07.627 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: flip ideas around and sideways and backways. Yeah, and we want to be able to really
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:11.720 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: thoroughly examine
00:41:11.780 --> 00:41:17.289 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: as much as we can right. But in this situation I had to learn
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:20.840 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to recognize when I had enough information
00:41:21.180 --> 00:41:23.340 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: or enough resources
00:41:23.530 --> 00:41:24.420 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: tip hack
00:41:25.130 --> 00:41:27.600 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and not find myself in
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:28.770 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: a
00:41:29.060 --> 00:41:36.319 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: you know, analysis, paralysis waiting for just the extra bit of information that might help me to make my decision.
00:41:36.520 --> 00:41:41.670 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So it helps me to develop more confidence in my decision, making abilities
00:41:42.340 --> 00:41:42.670 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and
00:41:43.090 --> 00:41:45.119 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: being more confident that
00:41:45.260 --> 00:41:47.279 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I'm new enough to get started.
00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:51.169 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and that we could figure it out as we went along.
00:41:51.803 --> 00:41:54.019 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: It was important as well
00:41:54.753 --> 00:41:59.769 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: for me to accept, and this was a little bit difficult for me, because I'm I'm
00:41:59.900 --> 00:42:01.426 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: generally not
00:42:02.810 --> 00:42:09.529 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: looking for attention. I generally will forget that people are looking to me.
00:42:10.245 --> 00:42:11.435 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and and
00:42:12.350 --> 00:42:18.529 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: noticing what I'm doing right? So I sometimes need reminders that
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:22.949 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: even in my smallest interactions. I'm modeling something.
00:42:23.300 --> 00:42:25.660 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And in this scenario
00:42:25.950 --> 00:42:31.179 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I was trying to be intentional about modeling
00:42:31.590 --> 00:42:33.899 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: self-care resilience.
00:42:34.050 --> 00:42:34.910 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: a
00:42:35.500 --> 00:42:36.750 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: mindfulness.
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:40.870 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: gratitude, things that helped me to get through
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:49.030 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: the pandemic. I wanted to give other people permission to do as well. And I think, being a psychologist in that role at that time
00:42:49.160 --> 00:42:58.484 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: was exactly where I needed to be. I will not say that I was perfect at it. We all had our stressors during that time, and
00:42:59.100 --> 00:43:01.825 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: had those those days when,
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.450 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: our capacity to cope was really tested.
00:43:06.113 --> 00:43:12.310 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: But I I wanted to expose other people to these concepts.
00:43:12.950 --> 00:43:16.889 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: give them opportunities to practice it, give them information.
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:19.529 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and encourage people to do so.
00:43:20.650 --> 00:43:27.890 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I I think what I also appreciate about what you said reading between the lines a little bit here
00:43:27.950 --> 00:43:29.420 Mira Brancu: is that
00:43:29.670 --> 00:43:40.939 Mira Brancu: in order to lean into this idea of agile leadership, which is drawing on the past and being okay with not being perfect and good enough, is good enough and trying things out
00:43:41.020 --> 00:43:43.279 Mira Brancu: requires a certain level of both
00:43:43.930 --> 00:43:46.069 Mira Brancu: curiosity to see what happens.
00:43:46.140 --> 00:43:58.869 Mira Brancu: Non perfectionism and embracing change, as like, you know. An opportunity like a positive challenge, like a where? Where might we be able to go with this right instead of
00:43:59.220 --> 00:43:59.770 Mira Brancu: but
00:44:00.590 --> 00:44:03.239 Mira Brancu: sort of holding fast to
00:44:04.607 --> 00:44:06.422 Mira Brancu: fear to
00:44:07.870 --> 00:44:12.960 Mira Brancu: you know, avoiding trying anything new to closing our doors, avoiding
00:44:13.010 --> 00:44:23.059 Mira Brancu: people and things that are unknown right like that doesn't really help in those kinds of situations. It just sort of causes more strain on the system.
00:44:23.080 --> 00:44:24.559 Mira Brancu: And so
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:31.280 Mira Brancu: you had kind of an a natural kind of, I guess inclination to lean into those kinds of things.
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:37.660 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I had to remember that there were other people around me who were very, very uncomfortable. With that same approach.
00:44:37.660 --> 00:44:38.120 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:44:38.120 --> 00:44:43.150 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And and I had to be aware that I could be perceived as being
00:44:43.600 --> 00:44:46.184 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: too experimental or or
00:44:47.680 --> 00:45:02.960 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: too flexible. So I also had to be prepared to explain my approach, or be more explicit about what I was doing to try to reassure people that
00:45:03.376 --> 00:45:09.580 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: there was some rhyme or reason behind what I was was doing. So it's partly accepting my own style.
00:45:09.940 --> 00:45:20.760 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: but also understanding that it may conflict with other key people around me, and I needed to be communicating more about what I was intending.
00:45:21.250 --> 00:45:46.330 Mira Brancu: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, okay, you are listening to the hard skills. We're reaching an end break. And so we will be back in just a moment. And when we do, let's start pulling all of this together. For how people can apply some of these interesting skills and concepts to whatever leadership, role or journey that they're on about managing the complexities, but also the the
00:45:46.330 --> 00:45:52.960 Mira Brancu: sort of expectations and paradoxes that you might face. We'll be right back in just a moment with our guest.
00:47:57.560 --> 00:48:03.750 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the heart skills with me, Doctor Mira Broncou and our guest today, Doctor Tamara Lynn.
00:48:03.870 --> 00:48:06.200 Mira Brancu: So Tammy.
00:48:06.330 --> 00:48:11.420 Mira Brancu: I have a I've been thinking through a sort of complicated question here for you.
00:48:12.210 --> 00:48:13.779 Mira Brancu: Let's say
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:16.480 Mira Brancu: that you've gotten really, really good
00:48:16.590 --> 00:48:17.660 Mira Brancu: at
00:48:18.170 --> 00:48:21.989 Mira Brancu: understanding the needs of your organization, understanding your strengths
00:48:22.330 --> 00:48:31.380 Mira Brancu: and then navigating such complex gray areas between knowing what they need, knowing what you need.
00:48:31.898 --> 00:48:34.442 Mira Brancu: And you know whether it's
00:48:35.540 --> 00:48:44.790 Mira Brancu: you know. Kamala Harris and the expectations placed on her, and trying to sort of expertly navigate the tension between those expectations. And when she's gonna lean into what
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.260 Mira Brancu: or your experiences
00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:54.569 Mira Brancu: and others around helper enforcer helper enforcer, you know. At some point.
00:48:54.790 --> 00:49:05.010 Mira Brancu: Is there a worry? And I I think well, I'm I'm gonna say, yes, there's a worry that some people get lost in all of that. They get a little lost and like getting so good
00:49:05.220 --> 00:49:11.450 Mira Brancu: at catering back and forth between different roles, different expectations that it might even
00:49:12.380 --> 00:49:20.261 Mira Brancu: lead them to wonder like, is this what I want for myself, after all? Even though I'm really good at this
00:49:20.750 --> 00:49:24.290 Mira Brancu: maybe they they start feeling like,
00:49:25.250 --> 00:49:37.560 Mira Brancu: you know. Do I do? I wanna get back to my roots or back to something that's more sort of feels like a little bit more dialed up me and dialed less on the organization needs and that kind of thing.
00:49:38.238 --> 00:49:52.231 Mira Brancu: I know you and I both kind of got into this space moving from leadership roles back to more of a sort of technical kind of or or closer to the roots of where we started.
00:49:53.390 --> 00:49:57.600 Mira Brancu: any thoughts on, how do you make those decisions?
00:49:57.690 --> 00:49:59.858 Mira Brancu: How do you start? Sort of
00:50:00.340 --> 00:50:04.410 Mira Brancu: Continuing to dial up, dial down, hone in hone out.
00:50:04.824 --> 00:50:09.679 Mira Brancu: Make make those like complex decisions when you're starting to wonder
00:50:09.710 --> 00:50:12.570 Mira Brancu: about those complexities.
00:50:14.660 --> 00:50:22.120 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: there are, there are 2 thoughts that come to my mind. And you're helping me to recall a a transition that I made for myself.
00:50:22.140 --> 00:50:32.240 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: you use the word misalignment in the opener when you were talking about Terrascope, and I had my own period of really significant misalignment between
00:50:32.470 --> 00:50:41.020 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: what I thought was important, and what what I wanted to contribute, and what I thought my strengths were, and what my role called for at the time.
00:50:41.580 --> 00:50:44.530 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: There was this tension. There was this disease.
00:50:44.860 --> 00:50:50.130 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: but I couldn't put my finger on what the what the tension was
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:57.489 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: without some really important exploration of what those values and priorities were for me.
00:50:58.406 --> 00:51:01.809 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And I was able to create different
00:51:02.540 --> 00:51:09.540 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: path forward myself. Once I realized where I was a better fit, and that was working directly with staff and inmates
00:51:09.930 --> 00:51:11.239 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in the field.
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:15.669 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: as opposed to what many people thought was a very cushy administrative job
00:51:15.710 --> 00:51:17.400 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in Washington, DC.
00:51:17.690 --> 00:51:25.290 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: That called for political savvy that I did not possess, and that I did not enjoy, and that really
00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:26.969 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: kept me from being
00:51:27.100 --> 00:51:32.030 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: as effective in the role as as I could be right. So I know that
00:51:32.080 --> 00:51:37.230 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: not everybody can create a different path for themselves. But in my case it took me
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:40.440 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: swallowing hard and asking my leadership
00:51:41.090 --> 00:51:42.770 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: or a reassignment.
00:51:43.430 --> 00:51:45.819 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: And you're right. It could. It gets that
00:51:45.990 --> 00:51:49.540 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: our professional identity, it gets it ego, it gets it.
00:51:49.852 --> 00:51:54.379 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Here I thought I had the breast ring. And do I want to give it up?
00:51:54.600 --> 00:52:05.720 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Yes, I do, because I'm very unhappy, and I feel like, I can be more impactful in a different role. So in my case, it was asking for a change, and I was able
00:52:06.507 --> 00:52:07.640 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to get one
00:52:07.650 --> 00:52:16.119 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: for those folks who who may not feel ready to ask for that or don't have that opportunity. I realize it's a privilege to be able to do so
00:52:16.660 --> 00:52:19.000 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: one other thing I did was that I
00:52:19.040 --> 00:52:21.250 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: found professional
00:52:21.460 --> 00:52:28.540 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: networks and outlets outside of my organizational role and help me to
00:52:28.770 --> 00:52:34.409 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: explore and satisfy some interest that I wasn't able
00:52:34.580 --> 00:52:38.380 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: to explore and satisfy in
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:45.110 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: my current role. Right? So it's important to remember that we are not only our
00:52:45.640 --> 00:52:46.650 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: day job.
00:52:47.110 --> 00:52:48.839 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: but that we have.
00:52:49.790 --> 00:52:53.229 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: you know, intellectual interest, professional interests that
00:52:53.430 --> 00:52:57.759 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: other people share, and it's a matter of trying to find them
00:52:57.850 --> 00:53:03.730 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and to connect with people who have similar interests and
00:53:03.750 --> 00:53:04.770 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: goals
00:53:06.010 --> 00:53:10.759 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: that, I think, can at least balance some of the
00:53:11.543 --> 00:53:17.469 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: tension that people might be experiencing when they're not sure if they're fitting into
00:53:17.510 --> 00:53:19.059 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: their current role.
00:53:19.660 --> 00:53:22.420 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Sometimes, though, it's a matter of
00:53:23.210 --> 00:53:24.910 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: trying to
00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:27.099 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: find a better fit
00:53:27.310 --> 00:53:31.279 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: somewhere else. I I know that I had my own
00:53:31.370 --> 00:53:33.680 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: opportunity for coaching.
00:53:33.730 --> 00:53:39.269 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: like, you know, at a point in my career where I was not feeling as effective as I needed to be.
00:53:39.490 --> 00:53:45.429 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and coaching was very, very helpful, and this was long before I ever imagined that I would become
00:53:45.540 --> 00:53:50.840 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and executive coach, but I was able to benefit from somebody who really helped me to reflect
00:53:51.150 --> 00:53:54.669 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and show up the way I wanted to.
00:53:56.640 --> 00:53:58.627 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So so between
00:53:59.300 --> 00:54:01.990 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: trying to find a better fit.
00:54:02.160 --> 00:54:09.330 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: trying to find other connections that also fit with you. Those may be 2 different approaches to
00:54:09.380 --> 00:54:10.800 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: addressing that call.
00:54:12.300 --> 00:54:14.212 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I completely resonate.
00:54:15.090 --> 00:54:18.780 Mira Brancu: here's here are my takeaways from everything that we've discussed.
00:54:19.180 --> 00:54:21.829 Mira Brancu: Number One. You are not your role.
00:54:22.610 --> 00:54:32.239 Mira Brancu: Try to figure out what all of the things are that you are about, and you can be your role and other things right.
00:54:32.450 --> 00:54:42.079 Mira Brancu: But often it might require some exploration, whether through a coach or organizations, or volunteering or piecing together all the things that you are
00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:54.809 Mira Brancu: and not getting wrapped up. This is, you know, more my words than what you said, but I think you'll resonate not getting wrapped up in the prestige and allure of being in a leadership role. If it doesn't fit
00:54:55.170 --> 00:54:59.179 Mira Brancu: right? I had to do that for myself, separating that out.
00:54:59.200 --> 00:55:06.300 Mira Brancu: So I'm curious for you. What is the one thing that you would like people to take away from all the things that you shared today.
00:55:07.940 --> 00:55:14.010 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I think that we need to be kinder to ourselves when we are feeling this distress and this
00:55:14.100 --> 00:55:15.470 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: unease
00:55:15.600 --> 00:55:18.230 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: as we go through our professional life.
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:26.290 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and really treat it as a signal that there's some reflection that could happen that could help you to
00:55:26.940 --> 00:55:29.159 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: find a better space.
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:34.110 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: Right? i i i know that for me I was very
00:55:34.820 --> 00:55:39.247 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: critical of myself when I was feeling like I wasn't
00:55:39.730 --> 00:55:49.389 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: as effective as I needed to be, and if only I could do x better, or y better or z better right? Only I just figure this out.
00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:51.779 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: When it turned out it was a matter of fit.
00:55:51.810 --> 00:55:54.480 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: and once I knew that it was a matter of fit.
00:55:54.500 --> 00:55:57.599 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: then I knew that I could do something about it
00:55:57.770 --> 00:56:05.390 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: before then. I didn't think I could do anything about it except try and fail to do things that were not
00:56:05.490 --> 00:56:06.780 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: in my nature.
00:56:07.730 --> 00:56:08.730 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: So
00:56:08.930 --> 00:56:11.529 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: I really encourage people to
00:56:11.780 --> 00:56:41.749 Tamara (Tammy) Lyn: not be as self-critical, not be as judgmental as we tend to be, especially women in professional spaces, tend to be quite critical about perceived failures, when, in fact, their opportunities to find a better fit. The same way that I did when I realized that marriage and family therapy was not going to be my future right. I didn't play well in the sandbox, and it turned into a great career, doing something entirely different.
00:56:42.400 --> 00:57:11.759 Mira Brancu: Excellent, excellent! All right. Audience, what did you take away? And, more importantly, what is one small change that you can implement this week, based on what you learned from Tammy. Share it with us, on Linkedin, at Mira Broncu and at Tamara Slyn, on Linkedin, or@talkradio.nyc. So that we can share you on. You can also find Tammy on highreadycoaching.com highreadycoaching dot com.
00:57:12.140 --> 00:57:27.139 Mira Brancu: So we are on Facebook, Instagram Twitter twitch all over the place. But Linkedin is where we live. In addition to being a live show, we're also on apple spotify Amazon podcasts help us increase our visibility, reach and impact by leaving a review.
00:57:27.150 --> 00:57:37.220 Mira Brancu: Thank you to Talkradio, NYC for hosting. I'm Doctor Mara Broncu, your host of the Hard Skills show. Thank you for joining us today with our guest, Doctor Tamara Slynn.
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:42.119 Mira Brancu: and have a great rest of your day wherever you're tuning in from. Bye. Everybody.
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