This week, on The Conscious Consultant Hour, Sam is pleased to welcome Clinical Supervisor, Vice President, Professor and Advisor, Mark Haden.
Mark Haden is a major figure in the field of psychedelic medicines, with a long list of past and present activities and responsibilities. Among—and beyond—these, he is the Clinical Supervisor for the Psychedelic Treatment Program at Qi Integrated Health and the Vice President of Business Development at Clearmind Medicine.
He is an instructor, teaching psychedelic therapy with the ATMA program and has written a book, the Manual for Psychedelic Guides which makes this information widely available.
Mark served as the Executive Director for MAPS Canada for 10 years and is an Adjunct Professor at the University of British Columbia School of Population and Public Health. Mark has published numerous articles in respected journals, has presented at conferences and training events in many countries, and was awarded the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal in 2013 for drug policy reform work.
Tune in and join the conversation as Sam and Mark discuss about the latest developments in the psychedelic industry!
Please comment on our YouTube channel, Facebook Page, LinkedIn Page, and even our Twitter feed. Join in and ask your questions live!
Tune in for this enlightening conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
00:00:37.930 --> 00:01:04.000 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: good afternoon, my conscious co-creators. Good morning. Good evening. Wherever you're tuning in from welcome to the conscious. Consult now, or weakening humanity. I am very, very pleased that you are all here with me today. We've got a wonderful show in store for you, the first in a short series of shows that are brought to you by the Spirit Plant Medicine Conference
00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:23.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: happening November fifth, through third in Vancouver, and we'll talk a little bit more about that during the show today. But I've got several a few couple of guests coming on from the conference. I'm really excited about it. But first, of course, let's get to our section from my book
00:01:23.410 --> 00:01:32.099 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Everyday Awakening. Because I wanna get through this quickly. But not too quickly, cause this is the last section of my book.
00:01:32.110 --> 00:01:47.230 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So I've been asking around, seeing what you would like me to do, and and and where I should go after the book. Then the the the votes are still coming in. So this section is entitled, this is a really important section.
00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:55.129 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It's entitled, If you see something to change in the world. It is a call to make the change.
00:01:56.440 --> 00:02:02.269 It is not that unusual to hear someone mentioned that something is not working right or is missing.
00:02:02.550 --> 00:02:09.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We see a problem or feel a lack. and we believe that someone should do something about it.
00:02:10.270 --> 00:02:16.659 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The mistake we make is in thinking that solving the problem or responding to the need
00:02:16.720 --> 00:02:28.559 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: is someone else's responsibility. It is not if we see something missing in our life, or something that is not as we would like it.
00:02:28.570 --> 00:02:39.910 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: There's a reason why we see it. and someone else doesn't. just because it is in our world. in our experience
00:02:40.010 --> 00:02:50.729 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: does not mean that someone else will have the same experience. It is our call to action.
00:02:51.650 --> 00:03:02.369 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: See something that can be done better. Great. build a better mousetrap. see something missing from the world that would contribute to it.
00:03:02.750 --> 00:03:15.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Great, make that contribution see an easier way for something to be accomplished. Great. Imagine how many other people could benefit from your insight?
00:03:16.700 --> 00:03:23.239 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The reason we see it and others don't is because this is the chance for us
00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:24.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: to step up
00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:30.729 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and do something about it and make a difference.
00:03:31.770 --> 00:03:35.990 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Does this mean we have to do everything ourselves?
00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:37.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: No.
00:03:37.450 --> 00:03:47.359 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And just because we see a need, or how something can be done better does not mean we have to do something about it alone.
00:03:47.730 --> 00:03:58.299 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We can share our insight or vision with others. and for those with whom it resonates with. Ask them to join us.
00:03:59.100 --> 00:04:01.949 We are the ones we have been waiting for.
00:04:02.390 --> 00:04:10.710 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Let's not wait any longer. Time to do what life is calling us to do.
00:04:12.210 --> 00:04:15.120 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Do you hear life calling you?
00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:20.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Do you have a vision for how to make something better in the world?
00:04:22.019 --> 00:04:25.210 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: When would be a good time to start.
00:04:26.540 --> 00:04:27.550 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:34.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I decided to make this the last section of the book with with my editor, because
00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:37.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: to me this is something that
00:04:39.020 --> 00:04:48.969 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I felt it was very important to really get. and it was something that I think someone had shared long time ago with me.
00:04:50.880 --> 00:04:58.400 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that it's when we see something that needs to be changed in the world when we see something
00:04:59.280 --> 00:05:05.589 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that doesn't feel right. That's that's out of alignment for us that's not
00:05:05.810 --> 00:05:12.809 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: working as well as it could, or or we see a better way. It's a call to us.
00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:18.659 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It's a call to us to step up and do something about it.
00:05:19.190 --> 00:05:26.219 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: There's a reason why we see these things. There's a reason why it's out of alignment.
00:05:27.760 --> 00:05:38.279 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and it's up to us because we're the ones who see it. It's up to us to contribute to the change that we wish to see in the world.
00:05:40.010 --> 00:05:48.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: because other people may be getting along fine, and they don't see it, and they don't know what the big deal is. But to us it makes a difference.
00:05:50.390 --> 00:05:55.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Now. At first, when I kinda heard this I was like, oh, Jeez, you mean that, like
00:05:55.280 --> 00:06:05.020 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: all these things, that I see that I think should be different or better about the world and society in life like I have to do all that myself.
00:06:06.330 --> 00:06:10.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and the answer is, no, you don't have to do it all yourself.
00:06:11.780 --> 00:06:18.089 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You're more than than open to inviting other people in to help you.
00:06:18.230 --> 00:06:28.460 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And as a matter of fact, it's so much more powerful when we open our vision to others, and if it resonates with them, then they're the ones to help.
00:06:31.070 --> 00:06:35.779 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So you you you you see too much garbage in your neighborhood.
00:06:36.450 --> 00:06:51.779 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know. Yes, you can go around and just pick up the garbage yourself and put it in garbage cans, or you you can post a little something you know, garbage cleanup Saturday afternoon. Come, join the neighborhood, and let's clean up together and see who joins you.
00:06:53.800 --> 00:07:05.919 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The thing is is not to be discouraged. If other people don't join you because it may not call to them, or they may be so caught up in their own stuff and so busy with their own life.
00:07:06.370 --> 00:07:10.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that that particular thing just doesn't resonate with them enough.
00:07:12.700 --> 00:07:24.989 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: but it's also a message of empowerment. It's a message of like, not just complaining about what's wrong in the world. But it's like if something doesn't
00:07:25.320 --> 00:07:31.139 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: resonate with you. If something doesn't align, it's a call to do something about it.
00:07:32.420 --> 00:07:36.799 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And I think that's the thing that most people miss.
00:07:39.080 --> 00:07:44.240 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that we're getting that call because it's ours to do something about
00:07:45.280 --> 00:07:52.179 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: doesn't mean we have to do every single thing, and it certainly does not mean we do it completely on our own.
00:07:53.460 --> 00:08:09.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and maybe we start doing something. We start organizing, and a bunch of people join us. And then, after a while, you know, we decide like we've put enough energy into it, and we turn it over and let the other people go with it, or we do it for a while, and then it goes by the wayside.
00:08:12.940 --> 00:08:21.519 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It may be ours to do something about it, but it doesn't mean we have to necessarily dedicate our entire life to it.
00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:28.540 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: unless that calling is so deep that we feel like dedicating our entire life to it.
00:08:30.390 --> 00:08:35.500 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: There are lots of examples of this. We we don't all have to be Mother Teresa.
00:08:37.549 --> 00:08:41.410 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But if, being Mother Teresa calls to you, then be Mother Teresa.
00:08:45.800 --> 00:08:49.949 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And so this is the last section in my book, because
00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:53.190 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: it's my message to all of you
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that if you see something in the world
00:08:59.620 --> 00:09:01.569 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that you wanna change
00:09:01.580 --> 00:09:04.510 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that doesn't feel right. That doesn't
00:09:05.030 --> 00:09:06.130 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: really.
00:09:07.310 --> 00:09:13.369 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know, cause you joy. And and it's something you just feel the need to fix.
00:09:13.430 --> 00:09:20.190 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Then go about it. make the change. find the support you need get others involved.
00:09:23.390 --> 00:09:29.049 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Imagine, if everybody in the world did this, what a different place we'd be living in.
00:09:30.860 --> 00:09:35.470 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So that is the last section in my book.
00:09:36.650 --> 00:09:41.799 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: If you see something to change in the world, it is a call to make the change.
00:09:41.900 --> 00:09:55.360 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and that, of course, is from my book every day awakening which you can get everyday awakening book.com, which will just take you to the Amazon listing. But if you're like me. I highly recommend you. Go to those
00:09:55.380 --> 00:10:03.130 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: small booksellers. We're in a major distributor so you can get it anywhere you can find books.
00:10:03.370 --> 00:10:04.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And now
00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:15.159 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: it is my extreme pleasure to welcome to the show. Clinical supervisor, vice president, professor, and advisor, Mark Hayden.
00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:35.780 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Mark is a major figure in the field of psychedelic medicines, with a long list of past and present activities and responsibilities. Among and beyond these he is the clinical supervisor for psychedelic treatment program at Chi, Integrative Health and Vice President of Business Development at Clear Mind Medicine.
00:10:35.910 --> 00:10:49.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: He is an instructor teaching psychedelic therapy with the Atma program and has written a book, The Manual for Psychedelic Guides, which makes this information widely available.
00:10:50.020 --> 00:11:02.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Mark has served as the executive director for maps, Canada for 10 years, and is an adjunct professor, professor professor at the University of British Columbia School of Population and Public Health.
00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:21.270 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Mark has published numerous articles in respected journals, has presented at conferences soon to be at the upcoming Spear Plant Medicine Conference and training events in many countries, and was awarded the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal in 2013 for drug policy reform work.
00:11:21.310 --> 00:11:23.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Welcome to the conscious consultant hour, Mark.
00:11:24.260 --> 00:11:50.639 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I thank you, Sam. It's a pleasure to be here. It's wonderful to have you. I've been really looking forward to having you come on the show. Ii always like to give my own. It's just a little bit of background to get started some context. So I'm curious. It is. II mean, obviously you. You've been working in public health for a long time. But your particular
00:11:51.190 --> 00:12:08.460 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: inclination towards psychedelic medicines. Is this something that you've had for a long, long time? Is this something that developed later in life for you. What! What kind of brought you to this field, which is now a a new up and coming field in some ways, but a very old field at the same time.
00:12:09.420 --> 00:12:23.729 Mark Haden: Well, one of my many jobs is I worked for Vancouver coastal health in British Columbia. All health money flows through the health authorities, and I was running a program for them. It was an addictions program with a sort of mental health component.
00:12:23.830 --> 00:12:43.009 Mark Haden: and I ran that for decades, and I became acutely aware that, in spite of the fact that I had passionate, talented, skilled people who really wanted to be there and do the best that they could possibly do to help people. The truth of the matter is, we weren't very effective at what we did, and what I said is, nobody ever had that
00:12:43.010 --> 00:12:54.820 Mark Haden: Eureka moment where they walked into our facility, had a moment of breakthrough, walked out, saying, Thank you. So we help people, but not dramatically and certainly not quickly.
00:12:55.360 --> 00:13:12.049 Mark Haden: and I became. I remember I had one particular client who I had really worked hard with, and many of my staff had worked hard with him, and he was a heroin injector and did was not doing well, and I knew his parents as well. I'd brought them in for family sessions and and
00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:30.139 Mark Haden: somehow he'd found the word Ibo gain. I think it might have slipped down to my lips, and he went down to Mexico and did an Ivig game program, and 10 years later he walked into my office or I had seen him for 10 years. He went down into Mexico, denied experience. He walked into my office and he said, I'm not an addict anymore.
00:13:30.310 --> 00:13:47.020 Mark Haden: I said, What are you talking about? And he said, I walked out into the intersection of my life. I've looked left, and I saw the word addiction. I've looked right, and I've seen the word recovery, and for the first time in my life. I realize I have a choice. I'm gonna choose recovery.
00:13:47.260 --> 00:14:12.129 Mark Haden: And it worked. He, he did recover. And so I became acutely aware that we need in the addiction services world. We need all the help that we can get, and psychedelic treatments are a very, very powerful way of helping people to change, and that was one of the things that kind of got me on the path, and I started talking loudly in my organization about the importance of taking psychedelic work seriously
00:14:12.130 --> 00:14:22.269 Mark Haden: at that point. In time they've changed. But at that point in time they weren't willing to take it seriously. So I quit Vancouver coastal health. And I knew Rick Doblern who ran maps U.S.A.
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:31.680 Mark Haden: And he wanted me to start maps, Canada. And I said, Okay, and II did and ran that as sort of the voice of psychedelics in Canada for 10 years.
00:14:32.180 --> 00:15:00.670 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So how long ago was that experience with with that client who came in? Wh, who used Ipogain? Probably 18 years ago. Wow, yeah, it was. Life is flowing by. Yes, yes, that that definitely makes you one of the elders in the industry, I would say, Yeah, that's wonderful. It's wonderful. And and I've I've heard, and I really don't have any experience with ipogame myself. But I've heard that
00:15:01.180 --> 00:15:13.030 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: for for heroin addiction is one of the most effective treatments, and heroin is like the. From what I understand you, you're the expert, not me, but is like considered to be one of the hardest addictions to treat.
00:15:14.430 --> 00:15:38.510 Mark Haden: It's a tough one. II wouldn't say it was the hardest, but there's a whole list. And they're all different. But yeah, it, we just need. We need lots of new tools. And second, offer, those kind of tools would actually help. And it's not just addictions. It's depression, anxiety, a variety of different mental health disorders. So my wife is a psychiatrist. I've looked for straight in the eye. And I said, the work that we are doing is going to transform your profession.
00:15:38.710 --> 00:15:57.999 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Psychiatry will not be the same. Clinical social work will not be the same psychology will not be the same. Clinical nursing will not be the same. Once psychedelics get incorporated into mental health treatments widely, absolutely. That's a vision. I definitely agree with. All right, we're gonna take our our first quick break when we come back.
00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:12.970 Let's just talk about where this path has led you and what you're doing now, and and how you became the the, the program director at C integrative health. And and what clear mind is all about, so that we can, you know, give our audience like really
00:16:12.970 --> 00:16:28.799 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: practical uses of these amazing things. And I do see on the Facebook live loyal listeners, Patty and Sonia tuning in. It's so good to see you. Thank you for for coming in on the, on, on the Facebook live. Let us know if you have any questions throughout the show.
00:16:28.800 --> 00:16:43.770 So you're listening to the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. We do this every Thursday 12 noon to one Pm. Eastern time and all over right here and talk radio data, Nyc, and all over social media. And we will be right back with our guest.
00:16:43.770 --> 00:16:46.169 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: mark Hadden in just a moment.
00:18:55.320 --> 00:19:21.969 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and welcome back to the conscious consult now awakening humanity. We're speaking this hour with Mark Haden, author of the Book Manual for Psychedelic Guides and former executive director of Maps, Canada, for 10 years. So I I'm sure you know, haven't been part of maps. You saw a lot of of things over the the your tenure there. When did you get involved with g integrated health?
00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:38.069 Mark Haden: Well, I've been at Chief for a couple of years now we've been building, actually, curious enough, a ketamine program because ketamine is completely illegal in Canada. And so it's an easy one to work with. It was interesting because my background was working with Mdma for
00:19:38.070 --> 00:19:56.160 Mark Haden: post traumatic stress disorder and certainly have some involvement with the world of Psilocybin and the other psychedelics. So when I first started working with ketamine, I wasn't particularly enamored with it. I wasn't sure how therapeutic it would be because I really saw mdma as being a beautiful therapeutic experience.
00:19:56.300 --> 00:20:01.039 Mark Haden: But now that I've been working with ketamine for a while, I have more and more appreciations for it.
00:20:01.090 --> 00:20:09.669 Mark Haden: it can be therapeutic. If you set people up for the experience. It's relatively short acting. It's about an hour to an hour and a half at the dosage we give
00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:23.200 Mark Haden: it, it works. And if you think about the classic psychedelics, the Lsd psilocybin of the world. Often when the first experience, when people take them is as they lift off.
00:20:23.540 --> 00:20:26.830 Mark Haden: The experience is anxiety-provoking.
00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:37.460 Mark Haden: and that goes away. But but the training a therapist to work with that experience as it starts to emerge. Can be challenging
00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:57.750 Mark Haden: now with ketamine. The first experience isn't anxiety. It's relaxation. It's just a sense of yes. So ketamine is is actually a very nice drug to work with. Short acting easy, no reduction of anxiety, and if you set people up skillfully it can be very therapeutic.
00:20:57.850 --> 00:21:13.330 Mark Haden: So I've I've become enamored with with the Academy and experience, and it does have some sort of innate antidepressant effects that just seem to work really well for people. In terms of managing chronic persistence and severe depression.
00:21:14.550 --> 00:21:39.850 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah. My my wife, who's who's a psychotherapist, has recently started offering Ketamine assisted psychotherapy. She trained with Phil Wolfson at the Ketamine Training Center. A a. And it's and it's quite interesting. It is a very potent substance. I'm just curious. I wonder if you know like, how did they realize it was good as a therapeutic aid?
00:21:39.850 --> 00:21:55.709 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Because ketamine, from what I understand, it was used. It's used as an anesthetic and a tranquilizer like, like, you know, when they put you under the ketamine could be one of the anesthesias that they use? Do you know? How did it like, how did people discover like, oh, this can help with depression?
00:21:56.230 --> 00:22:21.749 Mark Haden: Yeah, it's not a tranquilizer. It's a cause of, say, tank tranquilizer sedates consciousness. What it is is a disassociative anesthetic. If you, if you think about anaesthetics generally, when you, when you emerge from an anesthetic experience. You have no recollection of what happened which is different from dreaming. You have some sense that time has passed, and you know what happened when you wake up from dreaming. But with Anesia
00:22:21.750 --> 00:22:31.239 Mark Haden: you're not there. You're you're you're obliterated. But, ketamine, it's disassociative. So there's still some sense of consciousness. It's just that you're not
00:22:31.510 --> 00:22:48.570 Mark Haden: aware of what the surgeon is doing to your knee. But the way it worked is that many surgeons would go back to talk to the person about their knee surgery, and want to talk about their knee. And the person would say, Well, here's what's going on with my knee surgery, but I also am not depressed.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:23:06.919 Mark Haden: and the surgeons over the time listened to that, and then got together and started talking about that, and they were all having the same experience, and so they observed this side effect of it being an antidepressant, and in Canada I don't know how it works in the States, but in Canada and British Columbia
00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:20.499 Mark Haden: what happened is the College of Physicians and Surgeons said, Okay, so we need to allow this to be available as an antidepressant, and we were very cautious and conservative. Let's do it within hospitals for a severe depression.
00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:46.859 Mark Haden: They did that for a while, and it worked, and then they said, well, you know, we know this is a very safe drug, and we know that the level that they're using it at is much less so. It's even safer. The risks are are very, very low. Why don't we let people outside of hospitals use it? And the the language that they use is mental health conditions. So they don't even refer to diagnoses. So mental health conditions, no severity is listed.
00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:50.219 Mark Haden: And so that opened the door, for she integrated health
00:23:50.300 --> 00:23:58.079 Mark Haden: to provide this service. And they invited me in. And so we provide psychedelic psych as their psychedelic psychotherapy services.
00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:01.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, that's wonderful cause cause ketamine. Also, it's the only
00:24:01.910 --> 00:24:19.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: nationally legal psychedelic in the United States as well. And and my understanding of here is it's considered off label use. So like, you know, a drug gets approved for one particular thing, but then they find other uses for it. So that's considered off label use
00:24:20.090 --> 00:24:37.329 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and and I know there there were sort of 3 ways of of working with ketamine. There's there's loggin lozenge, you know, oral, there's there's injection or intramuscular, and then there's iv what kind of form do you do you use?
00:24:37.850 --> 00:24:58.880 Mark Haden: Well, we run groups now in groups. If you give people the lozenge, what will happen is everybody the launches the lozenge way of doing it is fairly unpleasant. You have to hold it in your mouth about 20 min and not spit. So saliva builds up in your mouth, and you have to just sit there and you cannot swallow, and the swallowing
00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:17.149 Mark Haden: reflex is fairly strong. So occasionally somebody will swallow it. So you've got 3 people in the group that are on a one and a half hour trajectory. And suddenly somebody else is on an oral trajectory. It's in their stomach, and so there they it last a lot longer for them, and it comes a lot slowly. So the group is no longer cohesive
00:25:17.330 --> 00:25:36.960 Mark Haden: cause. So so lozenges doesn't work in group, because if somebody swallows that they're completely different. Iv is just a hassle, and this I don't see any advantage to it. So for our purposes we use IM. Now we will use a lozenge if somebody is completely phobic for needles, but mostly IM is really easy to dose
00:25:37.070 --> 00:26:00.569 Mark Haden: guaranteed not unpleasant holding something in your mouth. Don't have to fiddle with the Iv. And so the the cleanest, easiest, and most straightforward way to do it is intramuscular injection. And and and what sort of conditions are like? What experiences do you find it it most helpful for cause? It's helpful for a lot of different things.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:23.010 Mark Haden: yeah. The bull's eye is depression depression. But many people come for many different reasons, and people just their lives aren't working. They have too much anxiety. They have some kind of diagnosis that they just think psychedelics would be helpful for them, and and we can often work with them. So there's a variety of different mental health conditions that we treat it. It's curious, one of the the main
00:26:23.910 --> 00:26:52.690 Mark Haden: new populations that we're reaching out to is actually police officers. II originally way back when I have a complex history, but at 1 point in my history I was a trainer for the Vancouver police department, and I taught them mental health and addictions issues, because that's what they do all day long. Most calls, you know, Cov young Bucky cops that want to go in and chase bad guys are suddenly confronted with the fact. It's not bad guys. It's mental health and addictions all day long, so they brought me in to help them
00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:56.859 Mark Haden: deal with that expansion of how the police saw their work.
00:26:56.870 --> 00:27:23.119 Mark Haden: and so I phoned up my old supervisor there, and I said, would you like me to talk to you about a program that I think would really be helpful for Ptsd? She said, yes. And so we put together a program called Helping Heroes, which is aimed at cops. So we're actually giving cops. We? We have cops in the pipeline. We haven't. Actually, it's a new program. We haven't had our first caught at their first set, but we've got them in the pipeline. We have to assess and prepare and and screen, and
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:33.579 Mark Haden: that we're we're planning on running groups with police officers, giving them psychedelics which is actually pretty cool. Wonderful
00:27:33.580 --> 00:27:54.109 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: other shows in the past on our network that there's a high instance of suicide among police officers in the United States. I don't know if it's the same in Canada, but that it's a major major issue. And and it's not being talked about enough. So I can. I can see how potentially this can help alleviate a lot of that situation.
00:27:54.760 --> 00:28:08.669 Mark Haden: Yeah, we're we're there's multiple reasons to give psychedelics to cops. One is they will have less trauma. And when traumatized police interact with the public. Bad things happen so they'll be more skilled at their profession.
00:28:09.030 --> 00:28:20.939 Mark Haden: They will be better managers of people under the influence of psychedelics, because they'll understand it. And so when they have to interact with somebody on a psychedelic, they'll be more gentle and calm and bring people into a safe space.
00:28:21.030 --> 00:28:36.399 Mark Haden: They're quite frankly less likely to bust people for psychedelics, and they become good spokespeople, you know, because we, you know, in the States, Rick Dublin brilliantly chose to work with. Veterans and veterans have become advocates for Mdma. Therapy
00:28:36.530 --> 00:28:53.310 Mark Haden: police are good advocates because they're just not your normal kind of hippie, you know, who has no credibility. We want credible people who are good spokespeople who have a lot of public admiration and cops fill that role perfectly.
00:28:53.310 --> 00:29:06.910 Mark Haden: So one of my goals is statue change social policy, you know. I would like to see psychedelics widely available, and the more police people, men and women we can get talking about the benefits of psychedelics that really changes the public dialogue.
00:29:06.990 --> 00:29:22.720 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, absolutely. And I happen to attend the psychedelic Sciences Conference in Denver this year where? It it seemed like a a according I forget. Who is Rick who said it, or someone else from App said that it looks like
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:42.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: at least in the United States. Mdma will will pass through all of its FDA trials next year and and be available for medical use, and they're thinking still aside, and possibly the year after that. So assuming things are are probably on a similar trajectory in in Canada.
00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:50.720 Mark Haden: We're certainly hoping so. Yes. And so the process is called di N, drug information number, drug identity number.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:30:19.140 Mark Haden: And so once at the in, is is attributed to a drug. Then it's on prescription. So the the marketability is then the process. And so, yeah, absolutely. And we intend to offer all of the different psychedelics as they come on stream. And, as you know, there are many, many psychedelic drugs in the research pipeline. And so this is a is an explosion of research interest in turning these things into medicines which makes absolute and complete sense to me. I'm looking forward to all of them.
00:30:19.150 --> 00:30:33.229 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yes, absolutely absolutely okay. It's time for us to take our next break when it come. When we come back. Let's talk about a clear mind medicine and and what you're doing there, and and then I want to kind of get into a little bit of the the
00:30:33.420 --> 00:30:52.519 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: artificial versus natural plant medicine, the underground versus above ground aspects of it, because it's it's a very complex industry, I guess you would say and and so there are many different issues. So I'm wondering we can just just even lightly touch upon some of that. Okay.
00:30:52.590 --> 00:31:02.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: wonderful. So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to the conscious, consultant hour awakening humanity, and we will be right back with our guest, Mark Hayden. After this
00:33:08.060 --> 00:33:21.820 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and welcome back to the conscious consult now are weakening humanity. So are you ready to join us on an incredible journey of healing and planetary transformation? The beloved Spirit Plant Medicine Conference is back.
00:33:21.820 --> 00:33:44.309 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: celebrating its twelfth year of gathering of like hearted souls in the beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia, where Mark is from and and they are thrilled to introduce to you an extraordinary lineup of visionary speakers will not only educate, but also inspire, prepare for an unforgettable experience with world renowned mushroom, Guru Guru
00:33:44.310 --> 00:33:55.380 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Paul stamets the cosmic wisdom of astrophysicists and mystic visionary acacia Lewis and the compassionate insights of Gabor Mat, Dr. Gabor Matte.
00:33:55.380 --> 00:34:25.220 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: 3 amazing people. This year's Conference will take place on the weekend of November third, through fifth, information and tickets can be found@www.spirit plant medicine.com. And because you're listening to the conscious consultant hour. You can use the code save the world, all one word save the world for an extra 10% discount and and it is through the
00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:36.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Spear Plant Medicine Conference that mark comes to us today. So thank you very much, Stephen Gray, for connecting us. And and thank you again, Mark, for taking the time to come on the show today.
00:34:37.370 --> 00:34:42.230 Mark Haden: You're welcome, Sam. It's it's what I'll be talking about in the conference is my book I'm
00:34:42.250 --> 00:35:05.089 Mark Haden: what I was aware of is that many people don't know how psychedelic psychotherapy works. There's been lots of people right written books about psychedelic psychotherapy where they talk about stories of what happened when they did the work. But they never said what they do. They never describe the process. What is psychedelic psychotherapy. How does that actually work?
00:35:05.330 --> 00:35:13.019 Mark Haden: I wrote a book called the Manual for Psychedelic Guides. And it's it's was an interesting process. Because I'm a bit of a community guy.
00:35:13.110 --> 00:35:20.420 Mark Haden: So I wrote the book, and then I had a ton of feedback. People would talk to me, and so I rewrote it, and I got more feedback, and I rewrote it again.
00:35:20.510 --> 00:35:39.789 Mark Haden: So it's a book that has been a bit of a community development project. And it's now in its third edition. It's on Amazon. It's called the Manual for Psychedelic Guides, and it really is intended for both official aboveground university courses as a textbook, and for the Underground, because the underground people
00:35:39.790 --> 00:35:59.660 Mark Haden: who are blossoming in Vancouver and doing very well, also need to understand how to do the work, because there's a vulnerability when when things go wrong in either above ground or underground, and it gets into the media, then it it challenges the whole train of psychedelic legalization going down the track which we wanted to stay on the track.
00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:07.899 Mark Haden: So this is a book designed to help everybody be skillful psychedelic guides wonderful! And and I'm so so glad you wrote it, because
00:36:08.030 --> 00:36:17.080 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I feel like there's first of all, there's a lack of education that that that a lot of people get involved with these substances without really knowing
00:36:17.270 --> 00:36:37.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: th, the history, the proper background, and the and the and the proper way to use them effectively. And and there are also a lot of people out there, and I've heard, believe me, I've heard horror stories from friends of of people who like take some mushrooms, have their own experience and think, Oh, this is great! I can do this for other people.
00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:54.869 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and they start offering their services. So they go down to to Peru, and they drink ayahuasca once, and they come back. And now they're they're they're serving ayahuasca to people, and they don't really have. They don't have a lineage. They don't have support. They don't have proper training, and it really concerns me because
00:36:54.920 --> 00:37:18.039 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: it it just, you know, after what happened in the sixties and seventies, there was such potential with these substances that got way, you know, sidetracked, I mean, for for how many years these substances have been illegal because of the misuse and mistreatment, and the lack of really honoring. How potent and powerful these substances are!
00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:48.169 Mark Haden: Yes, and how do you use them skillfully? Attention to set, which is the expectations that people have when they walk in the room, the setting, which is the environment that they're taking in. And a new buzz word is the matrix. Where do people go home at the end of the session? What kind of support they have there? What's the context of their lives they emerge into after a psychedelic experience. So which substance, what dosage? How do you do? What do you do when things go wrong? All need people need to be incredibly thoughtful about
00:37:48.170 --> 00:37:50.109 Mark Haden: because flying
00:37:50.150 --> 00:37:55.750 Mark Haden: for being a psychedelic guide is a bit like flying a plane. Often it's actually quite boring.
00:37:55.870 --> 00:38:06.240 Mark Haden: you know, that you're not doing a lot. Somebody's lying there with eyes shades on, listening to music. And you're sitting back relaxing. You're not doing very much. but when you're taking off, and when you're landing
00:38:06.310 --> 00:38:16.240 Mark Haden: in the analogy of a plane, things can be pretty intense, and so pilots have to train a lot for those moments when things go wrong.
00:38:16.330 --> 00:38:33.189 Mark Haden: and in spite of the fact that much of their job is boring, the same is true for psychedelic work, you know. Mostly you're not doing a lot. But, boy, when you have to be there for emotional turbulence, and you really have to be there with skill and compassion and wisdom and calm clarity.
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.910 Mark Haden: It takes quite a bit of skill to actually do that and start out with a knowledge
00:38:38.110 --> 00:39:07.059 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and really understanding. It is really really important. Hence the book. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like when everything's going fine, it's it's a breeze. It's easy. But when you hit those bumps, when when that person maybe unlocks a trauma that they didn't even know they had, and starts spiraling like. That's the real challenging moments. That's the you know, where the real skill and the and the real experience of the facilitator comes in.
00:39:07.940 --> 00:39:16.300 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know, it's also kinda interesting at the conference cause II saw a lot of different speakers met a lot of different people.
00:39:16.390 --> 00:39:27.609 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And even though there, there's this huge legalization track going on, and and a lot of people are doing things like with ketamine and and doing things through maps.
00:39:27.640 --> 00:39:38.800 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But there's still a strong and vibrant underground and and that, and that from what I heard people say it looks like there's always going to be a place for both.
00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:52.949 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And I'm and I'm curious. How do you feel about that? Considering you're more in the above ground side like, do you look at sort of underground facilities in the underground movement as as a problem or as a compliment to what you do?
00:39:53.730 --> 00:40:20.360 Mark Haden: Well, it's interesting in my world of maps, Canada. I became the Community Complaints department. I'm just a visible public figure, and when something went wrong in the Underground, and a client wanted to complain. Who did they complain to? And so it turned out to be me, so I would listen to both sides, and if I could see a resolution I would propose it, and I couldn't always see a resolution, but but sometimes I could, and so I became aware that the
00:40:20.770 --> 00:40:22.720 Mark Haden: my personal
00:40:22.790 --> 00:40:30.470 Mark Haden: agenda for my life is wide legal access to psychedelics. Essentially, it's a drug policy agenda. And
00:40:30.520 --> 00:40:44.389 Mark Haden: so I don't see the underground as antagonistic to that. But I see them as a risk. If it's done unskillfully, if it's done badly and it gets into the media, it can derail the train of psychedelic legalization.
00:40:44.590 --> 00:41:12.890 Mark Haden: So then they're not gonna go away. You can't pretend that they're not there. They're they're a flourishing community in Vancouver. So acknowledging that they are there, and that they're gonna keep doing their work. Giving them the best possible tools that they can have makes complete sense to me. You know the clinic that I work in is above ground and and we invite people in to meet our physician and get a prescription and and talk to registered therapists.
00:41:13.020 --> 00:41:21.730 Mark Haden: But that doesn't mean the Underground is going away. So I acknowledge the Underground, and and I think the Underground has always played a role, I mean, in in the world of research which was my previous incarnation.
00:41:22.220 --> 00:41:41.290 Mark Haden: Researchers will listen to underground therapists and get ideas as to what they wanna research, and then that becomes the process of clinical trials. Mdma, through the world of maps, you know, wasn't just Rick Dublin's ideas to do this. He listened. He listened to what people were saying. So the underground feeds into the above ground.
00:41:41.420 --> 00:41:53.610 Mark Haden: and the above ground develops techniques and protocols and procedures and ways, doing it that then the underground reads. So there's a a cross fertilization that happens between the underground and the above ground. So
00:41:53.630 --> 00:41:57.230 Mark Haden: I'm I'm aware that that needs to be
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:08.029 Mark Haden: fostered and can made Con as constructive as possible for the train to stay on the track absolutely absolutely. And and and at the conference. I saw the film
00:42:08.040 --> 00:42:29.549 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: about Sasha Shogun, who's like considered to be the grandfather of this movement. In some way he was very much he was a chemist, but he's very much underground researching, creating these compounds in his homemade lab, and and really helped to, I think, in some ways ignite the the psychedelic movement of his time.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:49.629 Mark Haden: Well, it's interesting, because that leads to my next job, which is with clear mind medicine, because that work of developing new molecules continues underground chemists mostly when we talk about underground therapists, but underground chemists still exist. They make new molecules, they test them, and they make them available in a variety of different ways.
00:42:49.670 --> 00:43:00.950 Mark Haden: And so one of my other jobs is clearmind medicine. And there's one particular molecule that is really, really intriguing. It's it's called MEAI. Or 5, Methoxy, 2 Amino Endane.
00:43:01.180 --> 00:43:07.699 Mark Haden: and it was released by a specific chemistry into the world of the Internet.
00:43:07.780 --> 00:43:19.699 Mark Haden: And then this discussion unfolded about it. It it feels a bit like mdma. Generally speaking, it's not quite that. But the discussion around it was, it seems, to have anti addictive qualities.
00:43:20.120 --> 00:43:33.269 Mark Haden: And that discussion just grew and grew and grew and grew. And then some people started to do some sort of informal anecdotal research of just actually inviting people with significant addictions to take this substance.
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:34.949 Mark Haden: and it seems to work.
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:45.850 Mark Haden: And so, watching that discussion in the Underground led to the birth of this company called Claremine Medicine, that is being formed above ground as a completely legal company.
00:43:45.990 --> 00:44:05.260 Mark Haden: And and it's it's fascinating to watch this molecule work its way through the clinical trial pathway. And let let me just give you one example. They it was originally proposed for alcoholism, because it just seems to help people stop drinking. But it's if you think about other options for alcoholism, counseling naltrexine and abuse at comprise.
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:23.090 Mark Haden: None of them actually work as well as this appears to work, and something like and abuse is a horrible to take. It's obnoxious, you know. You get violently ill, but mei is a positive experience that just seems to trigger the satiation response. We just don't want to drink anymore.
00:44:23.330 --> 00:44:24.899 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So it's
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:44.850 Mark Haden: it's it's a bit the analogy that I use is cheesecake, you know. Once you finish. If somebody gives you 2 pieces of cheesecake and then sits a third piece of cheesecake in front of you. You look at it. You can't imagine touching it. You just kinda go. Oh, so it it's similar to that, have you? Just? You're done. You're just completely finished. But it's a positive experience.
00:44:45.110 --> 00:44:56.590 Mark Haden: So it was originally proposed for alcoholism. And but they there was also this kind of thing that started to happen on the Internet of people noticed that it was also useful for eating disorders
00:44:56.840 --> 00:45:00.860 Mark Haden: so clear. My medicine found an eating disorder
00:45:01.970 --> 00:45:17.710 Mark Haden: researcher who works with rodents and he works with it. If you have a molecule, you think will help with eating disorders or obesity. Specifically, you give it to this guy, and that's all he does. He works with really fat rats, he! He will tell you whether your molecule is useful for rats or not. They gave it to him.
00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:25.590 Mark Haden: and he came back, and he said, this is really an interesting molecule. He hadn't seen anything like it. And what he said is, it's normalizing.
00:45:26.100 --> 00:45:35.089 Mark Haden: By that, I mean, if you give an obese rat crystal meth. Yes, they will lose weight, but they will not be a normal rat at the end of the experience. They'll be really messed up.
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:39.089 Mark Haden: And he said. This seems to be a normalizing experience.
00:45:39.180 --> 00:45:50.919 Mark Haden: Their back activity becomes normal. How the fat is stored in the body becomes normal, their body weight becomes normal. It's a fascinating molecule, because it just seems to help, but it produces a normal, not rat, not a really stressed out rat.
00:45:51.100 --> 00:46:10.159 Mark Haden: So it's fascinating to watch a molecule go through the clinical trial process, and I think one day my hope is it will become a legal addiction treatment. And and I've joined that company just full self-disclosure. I'm the vice president of business development for that company, because I've watched that molecule. And I think it's fascinating.
00:46:10.170 --> 00:46:32.449 Mark Haden: Hmm! Wonderful! Wonderful! Wow! How far along are you in the process? How long do you think it'll be before you know it'll be years? We were working with the FDA to get it into human studies. And it's the clinical trial pathway, that which is endless. And it's not endless, but it's a complicated process. But they've done there. A lot of work has happened with
00:46:32.560 --> 00:46:43.529 Mark Haden: preclinical toxicology and and efficacy in in rodents. But and and it works in rodents. But we don't know yet if it works in humans, we're not there yet.
00:46:43.530 --> 00:47:04.379 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Okay, got it? Got it. Wonderful. Wonderful. Okay, it's time to take our last break. I do see scenaria posted a question on the Facebook live. So we'll get to that when we come back to break. So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to the conscious consult now awakening humanity. We've been speaking this hour with Mark had, and then we will be right back to wrap this all up in just a moment
00:49:11.610 --> 00:49:23.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: so, Mark, we have a question from our audience, Sonia asked, is there a relationship with increasing psychedelic therapy and children teens with autism?
00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:27.870 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And autism is an interesting thing. Cause I've seen
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:46.440 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: people look at psychedelics. Is there any possible help for children with autism? And and I think what she's more looking at is is there a a A is? Is autism, a a possible Co outcome of someone using psychedelics, you know, before they conceive, I guess.
00:49:48.680 --> 00:50:02.129 Mark Haden: Okay, there's many different questions in there. Let's let's tease them apart. So there's no research that says that people who take psychedelics produce autistic autistic children. There is no link that's been identified in the research.
00:50:02.290 --> 00:50:17.430 Mark Haden: There is some research there. There is no research that says you can cure autism with psychedelics. II that doesn't exist. II I'm at least I'm not aware of that. But there is some research that looks at
00:50:17.510 --> 00:50:34.210 Mark Haden: the social anxiety that's associated with autism because one of the things with people who have autism struggle with is disconnection from others. And so what we all need is connection. And we all need to develop skills that enable us to connect with people.
00:50:34.260 --> 00:50:51.809 Mark Haden: And there's been some research interest in helping people deal with the anxiety around connection that people with autism struggle with and specifically using MDM. To do that. That may be something that will be fruitful in the future. But helping people who artistic connect is actually really important.
00:50:51.910 --> 00:50:54.960 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yes, absolutely absolutely.
00:50:55.100 --> 00:51:06.439 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that's what I was getting at the aggression and anxiety with the therapy. Calm it down. Basically.
00:51:07.620 --> 00:51:28.960 Mark Haden: Possibly. Yes, possibly. I mean, we're we're research is slow and difficult and painful, and I would describe it as an area of research interest as opposed to conclusive. But but it, it's something that researchers are interested in. Yes, it's one of those aspects. II think
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:53.929 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know. Also, I think there's there's some interest in some hopefulness, because some psychedelics do help to increase neuroplasticity, and they're hoping that II believe there's some research into seeing, not that it can cure autism, but it might alleviate certain symptoms if in in autism. But it's so early in in that. That research from my understanding is still very, very young.
00:51:55.060 --> 00:52:01.009 Mark Haden: Yeah, I have an analogy that I use frequently that is useful for all psychedelics.
00:52:01.050 --> 00:52:10.450 Mark Haden: and it's a skiing analogy. So you take the gondola up to the the ridge of the mountain, and then you normally in your regular life. Get pulled into this rat.
00:52:10.450 --> 00:52:35.439 Mark Haden: That is a deep way, deep. Rut down the mountain that you just get pulled into, and you go down the mountain in that rut. You go back up the mountain with the gondola, and you go down the same rut, back up the mountain, down the same rut, and you you kind of stuck in this rut, and it could be an emotional rut. It could be a Ptsd rut. It could be a depression rut, but it's a rut, and it's hard to get out of you. Struggle to get out of the rut. But it just doesn't seem to work. Psychedelics are like you. Now have a chance to sit on
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:44.700 Mark Haden: the edge of the mountain. You've taken the gondola. It's snowing lightly. It's a beautiful day. You hang out on the ridge, and just look at your life for a while.
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:46.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and then you realize you have a choice.
00:52:47.100 --> 00:53:07.850 Mark Haden: And that rut, because it's snowing lightly is partly full of snow, and so it doesn't pull you as much, and you go down the mountain in a different way, and then you take the back up again, and you go down the mountain in a different way again, and as you do it, you notice the rut is getting increasingly full of snow, and it pulls you less and less and less, and at the end
00:53:07.850 --> 00:53:18.070 Mark Haden: the rut never completely goes away. You're aware of it, you can see it. But you have choices about how you go down the mountain, and you can choose different ways or
00:53:18.500 --> 00:53:23.619 Mark Haden: completely different ways on top of that. So there are many ways down the mountain, and you have much more choice
00:53:23.710 --> 00:53:35.910 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: when you use psychedelics through a therapeutic process. That's a way of describing neuroplasticity. II love it. I love that analogy. That's a beautiful analogy, but I think very apropos.
00:53:36.370 --> 00:53:52.580 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Wh, with everything going on in the industry right now, and and the push towards legalization and and and and decriminalization. There are huge de decrim movements in in both the Us. And Canada.
00:53:53.860 --> 00:54:03.170 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Do you have any concerns for the future? Or do you have any any, any worries or or things that you think can really derail things at the moment?
00:54:03.640 --> 00:54:25.269 Mark Haden: Yeah, we're not there yet. I mean, the train is chugging down the track, and it is not derailed. But there are certain problems. There are lots of problems. Therapists behaving badly, you know, and not, you know. It's the whole touch thing, you know, and it it just goes wrong repetitively, because psychedelics reduce boundaries. And mdma specifically is colored with the emotion of love.
00:54:25.400 --> 00:54:38.729 Mark Haden: So a high amount of skill is needed to to really be clear about boundaries, because when boundaries go wrong in psychedelic space that can derail it. But there's actually a number of things that's just one of them.
00:54:38.900 --> 00:54:40.130 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: because
00:54:40.210 --> 00:54:58.709 Mark Haden: the cannabis world cannabis, as you know, is legalized in Canada, and it was interesting to watch how it happened, and they didn't engage the medical profession. Well, and so that's they probably didn't need to, because it's now just available for recreational use. But psychedelics is going to be a prescription. So we need to be really, really skillful about our engagement of the medical community.
00:54:58.900 --> 00:55:06.659 Mark Haden: And so I have. I do these doctors dinners, and I have about 82 folks that I invite to these things. And we talk about psyched Alex.
00:55:06.890 --> 00:55:09.349 Mark Haden: And it's interesting because
00:55:09.420 --> 00:55:12.879 Mark Haden: doctors have a tough time thinking about the context.
00:55:13.020 --> 00:55:16.340 Mark Haden: They like to think about drugs as a pill you give to people
00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:31.880 Mark Haden: and psychedelics are not just a pill. They're the context is so so important and so getting the medical community to understand that it is not just a pill you give people is actually a bit of a challenge, because that's they're very fixed in their way of seeing it.
00:55:32.140 --> 00:55:55.109 Mark Haden: So that's another reason I wrote the book is to really make it clear. There is a context in the context is crucial. And if you get the context wrong, that things will go wrong. So the medical community is a great blessing to us and a risk to us, so getting them on board and getting them trained and understanding and working with therapists is going to be a vital part of the future, so that there's there's many different risks.
00:55:55.610 --> 00:56:20.980 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Well, Mark, unfortunately we have to end it there II could talk with you for hours and hours, and hopefully, the next time I make it to Vancouver we can get together and actually do that. before we close out? If you would like to give your website or let people know if they have questions for you, how they'd like to get in touch with you. Please do so. Sure.
00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:31.149 Mark Haden: Integrated health is in Vancouver. We provide ketamine clearmind medicine is a company that is in the clinical trial research pathway for me. AI.
00:56:31.420 --> 00:56:48.379 Mark Haden: I'm at Ubc School of Population and Public Health. My book is available at Amazon, the Manual for Psychedelic Guides, and I have a website where I just give stuff away. It's Mark hayden.com and I just make my presentations available and give stuff away to people
00:56:48.730 --> 00:56:57.549 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: wonderful, wonderful! And I see, loyal listener. Patty says this was so informative. Thank you. Thanks for listening, Patty, and thank you, Mark, for taking the time. And
00:56:57.550 --> 00:57:20.609 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you can actually, if if you want to attend the conference, you can see Mark giving his presentation at the Spirit Plant Medicine Conference. You can learn all about that@www.spirit plant, medicine.com. Remember, use the code save the world. All one word, all lowercase for 10% discount. That's November third to fifth in Vancouver, British Columbia.
00:57:20.610 --> 00:57:34.769 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Mark's hometown once again, Mark. Thank you so much, and I appreciate all the work that you're doing, and the voice that you are for sanity in the industry. Thank you for what you do in the world.
00:57:35.350 --> 00:57:56.960 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Most welcome, and thank you, my loyal listeners, for tuning in every week without you there is no show. And of course, if you missed any part of today's show, you can always catch the replay on talk, radio, dot, Nyc and all the major podcasting platforms. Apple Amazon, Google spotify Pandora Iheartradio. Wherever you find podcasts, you will find the conscious consultant hour.
00:57:57.270 --> 00:58:22.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Please stay tuned. Don't forget later today. Frank Harrison in his show, Frank, about health at 5 Pm. Eastern time, and of course, on Friday our whole block of Friday shows and a little announcement. Dr. Mira Branku, host of the hard skills, is going to be moving her show from Fridays at one Pm. Next week. She'll be airing Tuesdays at 5 pm. So keep an eye out for a change in our schedule. Thank you all for tuning in. We will talk to you all next week.
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