Thursdays 11:00am - 12:00pm (EDT)
EPISODE SUMMARY:
The audience will gain awareness of legalized hate and ways to change such a legacy.
In her book The Place We Make: Breaking the Legacy of Legalized Hate, Sarah L. Sanderson tells two stories. The first is the story of Jacob Vanderpool, the only person to be legally exiled from the Oregon Territory for being Black in a state that prohibited Black residents for over 75 years. The second story Sarah tells is of discovering that her own White family members participated in exiling Vanderpool, which prompted her to go on a journey of discovering and dismantling her own internalized racism.
Join Rev. Dr. TLC as she talks with Sarah about what she learned and how she’s sharing her story with others.
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Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
Rev. Dr. TLC introduces her guest, Sarah L. Sanderson. Rev. Dr. TLC gives a brief overview of Sarah’s background and the impact of her book, The Place We Make: Breaking the Legacy of Legalized Hate. Sarah is a former elementary school teacher and a mother who found herself compelled to write a book. She explains that this story just symbolically bopped her on the head once she realized her family was connected and involved. Sarah discusses how she lived in a white bubble most of her life. It wasn’t until she had a conversation with her brother did she realized Oregon had anti-black exclusion laws. That incentivized her to learn more about her home state’s history. Sarah started researching and soon learned about Jacob Vanderpool. Rev. Dr. TLC explains that Sarah probably wouldn’t have realized her situation if she hadn’t left Oregon and lived in places like Chicago and New Jersey.
Rev. Dr. TLC asked Sarah what advice she would give the listeners if they wanted to take the next step of learning their history. Sarah talks about her experience of spending a semester in Africa during college. There was an incident where Sarah prejudged a group of men based on their skin color, which made her realize how she perpetuates racism. Rev. Dr. TLC points out how Sarah was able to fight through the uncomfortable feeling and continue to dismantle racism. Rev. Dr. TLC asks Sarah to tell the listeners how she discovered her family’s involvement and how that impacted her. Sarah talks about the shame and fear she had moving to the next step after discovering her family history. Rev. Dr. TLC asks Sarah how her life changed after finding out the history of her family. Sarah shares how she took responsibility and explains what that means.
Sarah discusses the details of Jacob Vanderpool and how he was tried for being black in Oregon. She also adds the outcome of his story and what happened to him when he left Oregon. Rev. Dr. TLC and Sarah discuss how Oregon laws shaped Oregon’s history and created a white bubble. It connects to today’s government and how they are trying to influence the law by making it white again. Sarah brings up a current story where she was conversing with a friend, and he shared how he was being racially bullied. Rev. Dr. TLC asks Sarah how we take the steps to repair.
Sarah tells us what she means by lament and she also explains why it’s so important. She adds that white people need to cry more and acknowledge there history in order to grow from it. Rev. Dr. TLC highlights why it is so important to talk about history. Rev. Dr. TLC and Sarah talk about forgiveness before ending the show. You can get in touch with Sarah at www.SarahLSanderson.com.
00:00:42.940 --> 00:01:00.909 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hello and welcome to the dismantle racism. Show. Our goal of the show is to educate, eradicate, and dismantle racism. I am your host, the Reverend Dr. Tlc, we at this show have a goal of really wanting to help you
00:01:01.310 --> 00:01:24.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to promote racial equity. We wanna see a world where it exists for everyone, not just for some people as always. I wanna thank you for listening in. And I wanna invite you to subscribe to the show if you've not already done so, and if you have, thank you very much, and I would love for you to tell others about the show
00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:32.149 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because we are streaming here at talk radio. Nyc, but we're over all the social media platforms.
00:01:32.150 --> 00:01:41.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we are on your favorite favorite favorite streaming platforms as well. So please tell other people people to subscribe to the show.
00:01:41.700 --> 00:02:01.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We also would love to hear your comments, so make sure that while the show is going on that you take the time to comment on Youtube on Linkedin. Wherever it is that you are watching the show from. Please make sure that you comment. And again, I want you to tell others about the show as well.
00:02:01.430 --> 00:02:14.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Wanna invite you to go to sacredintelligence.com where you can learn more about me and my platform, where you can pick up a copy of my book if you've not already done so yet.
00:02:14.550 --> 00:02:28.219 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: please pick it up, because if you're interested in going the long haul in dismantling racism, I have some tidbits in there that's going to help you on what I call the Sacred Intelligence Journey of faith.
00:02:28.270 --> 00:02:30.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because it takes faith to do this work.
00:02:31.060 --> 00:02:58.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: faith, and something greater than you and I, faith in ourselves and faith and other people to understand that we can get through this together. And you have people who are here and willing to help you just like the guest tour on my show, who are always adding really good advice for us. And so I wanna just again, thank you for listening in. And we're gonna start to show today, as we always do.
00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:02.829 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and that is by going into meditation.
00:03:03.090 --> 00:03:10.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you're a longtime listener of the show, or even if you've listened before, you know, the reason why we engage in
00:03:10.720 --> 00:03:23.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: meditation, and the reason why I go through a breathing exercise with you is simply because some of the information that we talk about on the show can be very triggering. It's always important to go back to your breath.
00:03:23.480 --> 00:03:34.359 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you're gonna have a difficult conversation with someone. It's always important for you to center yourself to ground yourself, and we start by recognizing our breath.
00:03:34.690 --> 00:03:37.999 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So it's just a tool that we use to help
00:03:38.260 --> 00:03:52.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to level us out a bit so we can start a conversation so we can continue a conversation so we can get through a conversation. So if you can. I'm going to invite you to close your eyes just for a moment.
00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I want you to take a deep breath in.
00:04:00.130 --> 00:04:02.459 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just hold it for a moment.
00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:06.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: then I want you to exhale.
00:04:09.340 --> 00:04:13.399 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Take another deep breath in and hold it
00:04:15.140 --> 00:04:16.200 and exhale.
00:04:18.010 --> 00:04:25.229 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and this time, when you take a breath, and I want you to find your normal rhythm of breathing.
00:04:25.890 --> 00:04:29.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and connect with your divine wisdom.
00:04:30.520 --> 00:04:33.029 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: your sacred intelligence.
00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:38.989 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that part of you that helps you to manifest your greatness
00:04:39.440 --> 00:04:41.929 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: while helping others to do the same.
00:04:44.510 --> 00:04:50.179 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So just breathe in and out, connecting with that which helps you to make
00:04:50.410 --> 00:04:52.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: intelligent choices
00:04:55.420 --> 00:05:00.569 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out, being reminded that you share this space
00:05:00.810 --> 00:05:02.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with others.
00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:05.689 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Your breath is connected to others.
00:05:07.990 --> 00:05:11.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out.
00:05:12.310 --> 00:05:15.889 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with those people who've come before us.
00:05:17.460 --> 00:05:22.439 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with the people who are here with us now love and support us.
00:05:24.440 --> 00:05:27.869 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with the people who are listening to
00:05:27.890 --> 00:05:29.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: this shall
00:05:32.410 --> 00:05:34.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and just breathe in and out.
00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:41.839 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: knowing that you are loved and you are love itself.
00:05:45.750 --> 00:05:48.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out.
00:05:48.850 --> 00:05:54.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: recognizing that you have the power to change the status quo.
00:05:56.790 --> 00:06:00.759 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out, recognizing that the power of one
00:06:00.960 --> 00:06:04.039 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: contributes to the power of community.
00:06:06.150 --> 00:06:10.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And now take another deep, deep breath in and hold it.
00:06:12.610 --> 00:06:14.090 and then let it out.
00:06:15.190 --> 00:06:20.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we say. and so it is. I shake.
00:06:25.870 --> 00:06:29.359 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I hope you feel better. I always feel better after
00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:37.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I do that, and it also helps my guest and I to get prepared for our conversation as well.
00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Today we are going to be talking about
00:06:41.330 --> 00:06:43.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: legalized hate.
00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:56.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know, in the black community and the African American community we often use the term about it's a crime being black, because when we're just walking down the street
00:06:56.120 --> 00:07:08.919 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we might get stopped. For some reason. When we're driving down the highway we might get stopped for a reason. When we're in the stores we might get stopped for a reason and accused of something. And so we know
00:07:09.020 --> 00:07:13.309 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that the legalized system doesn't work very well for us.
00:07:14.550 --> 00:07:16.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But in actuality
00:07:17.970 --> 00:07:26.579 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hate has been legalized because my guest today is going to be talking about the story of Jacob Vanderpole.
00:07:26.690 --> 00:07:33.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: He was the only person to be legally exiled from the Oregon Territory for being black
00:07:33.640 --> 00:07:40.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in a state that prohibited black residents for over 75 years.
00:07:40.990 --> 00:07:43.319 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I just want you to think about that.
00:07:44.380 --> 00:07:47.939 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want you to let the gravity of that hit you.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:57.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because when people wonder why black people. people of African descent are talking about race constantly.
00:07:57.810 --> 00:08:11.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and why we are being treated the way we are, and they'll say you're playing the race card. The whole deck is racial. It's been stacked against us since we were first brought to these shores.
00:08:13.400 --> 00:08:22.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There are remnants of that that are remaining, not just for people of color, but in the ways in which white people treat us
00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:26.739 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and show up. And it's unconscious
00:08:26.790 --> 00:08:33.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because there's implicit bias. We live in a society that is steeped in racism.
00:08:34.510 --> 00:08:41.359 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This man was tried for being black. but my guest today.
00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:57.959 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Sarah Sanderson, who is the author of the place we make. It's kinda hard for you to see my book today, because it's it's a blurred out, but it's the place we make breaking the legacy of legalized hate
00:08:57.990 --> 00:09:13.089 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: by Sarah Sanderson. She tells the story in year of Jacob, but not only does she tell Jacob's story. The second story that she tells is of discovering that her own white family members participated in exiling.
00:09:14.060 --> 00:09:21.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which prompted her to go on a journey, of discovering and dismantling her own internalized racism.
00:09:22.540 --> 00:09:26.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So she's going to be talking about that in our show today.
00:09:27.370 --> 00:09:32.509 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Of course, she's a writer and a speaker who lives in Oregon.
00:09:32.890 --> 00:09:47.879 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and this is her first book. We are excited to have her on the show today. I know that we're going to be coming up for a break in just a minute. But, Sarah, I want to take just a moment to welcome you to the show. Welcome.
00:09:48.140 --> 00:09:50.449 Sarah Sanderson: Thank you so much. It's so great to be here.
00:09:50.910 --> 00:09:53.379 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am super excited to to
00:09:53.460 --> 00:10:03.039 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: get into this conversation with you. And and and just kind of talk a little bit about your discoveries. But first
00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:05.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: tell me a little bit.
00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:13.109 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and our audience a little bit about who you are, and how this came to be in the first place.
00:10:14.140 --> 00:10:31.830 Sarah Sanderson: So I am, I would say a pretty unlikely person to write this book. I mean, I was stay at home. Mom Pastor's wife, former elementary school teacher. I was just kind of living my life
00:10:31.990 --> 00:10:43.569 Sarah Sanderson: in sort of a lot of white bubbles. I had a mostly white church. My kids went to mostly white schools. I lived in a mostly white suburb.
00:10:43.760 --> 00:10:59.980 Sarah Sanderson: And this story kind of just reached out and bopped me on the head. and especially once I realized that my own family members were connected and involved. II just I couldn't
00:11:00.050 --> 00:11:05.699 Sarah Sanderson: turn away from it. And it I didn't know at the beginning that I was writing a book.
00:11:05.930 --> 00:11:17.650 Sarah Sanderson: I just became interested in this industry, and after 6 years of doing the research and kind of getting sucked into the story and finding out more and more, and then
00:11:17.990 --> 00:11:26.870 Sarah Sanderson: looking at my own life more and more, it became a book. So here it is so. How? How did it just stop you
00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:28.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: on the head?
00:11:28.260 --> 00:11:48.529 Sarah Sanderson: Well, really, it was right. It really it was when I moved back to Oregon. I was born here in Oregon. I have family who've been in Oregon for generations, but I moved away from most of my life, and I lived in place like Minneapolis and Chicago and New Jersey, where.
00:11:48.540 --> 00:11:54.349 Sarah Sanderson: even though I was still in my own, mostly white bubbles. In those places, there were other people around
00:11:54.630 --> 00:12:00.989 Sarah Sanderson: and so it it didn't. I didn't realize quite how white my bubbles were.
00:12:01.030 --> 00:12:08.280 Sarah Sanderson: because I thought, you know, I'm I'm part of this world, and I'm rubbing shoulders with all these different people. And then I moved back to Oregon.
00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:35.910 Sarah Sanderson: and I just looked around and I was like, Wait, what what happened. It's so white here. Why, and I mentioned that to my brother. And he said, Sarah, didn't you know that Oregon has a history of anti black exclusion laws. And I was like, no, I had no idea. So that was what really grabbed me. I thought, I've got to find out more about this place that I'm from, that I'm living in again.
00:12:36.030 --> 00:12:47.970 Sarah Sanderson: And I really just started Googling and hit this name Jacob Vanderpool. And it it just I mean, it really did it felt like it just jumped off of the computer screen at me like, look at this.
00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:52.010 Sarah Sanderson: So so so here's what's interesting, because
00:12:52.430 --> 00:12:57.249 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you might never have questioned
00:12:57.770 --> 00:13:03.719 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: being in a mostly white area or largely white area.
00:13:04.220 --> 00:13:11.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: had you not left and come back because so start and striking. And what's interesting is.
00:13:11.790 --> 00:13:22.729 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: many white people don't ask that question, why is my area mostly white? Or why is history told? The way it is, the matter is.
00:13:22.970 --> 00:13:31.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's why our children need to be educated. We have laws that are starting to come into place where you cannot teach
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: history
00:13:32.710 --> 00:13:53.839 Sarah Sanderson: from that perspective, because people are worried about how white kids are going to feel. That's another form. Oh, go ahead! No, I was just gonna say you're it's all about the history. And that was what I didn't know until I started researching. It was that
00:13:53.840 --> 00:14:03.759 Sarah Sanderson: you, you know, I had been swimming in these sort of arguments, and I don't know that I actually form these for myself, but I certainly heard people say, like, you know.
00:14:03.990 --> 00:14:16.629 Sarah Sanderson: that that was in the past like, why doesn't everybody just, you know, just deal with it right, and move on. And when I started to look at the history, and how
00:14:17.420 --> 00:14:22.650 Sarah Sanderson: pervasive long and how egregious
00:14:22.670 --> 00:14:23.940 Sarah Sanderson: it was like.
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:37.719 Sarah Sanderson: I just I never knew. I never knew Sarah. We're gonna come back and we wanna I'm gonna pick up and and talking about that. But we need to take a quick break. This is the dismantle racism show will be right back with my guest, Sarah Sanderson.
00:16:44.140 --> 00:16:53.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with my guest today, Sarah Sanderson, who wrote the place we make Sarah. What was it about you
00:16:53.780 --> 00:17:06.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when you heard this news? Because a lot of people hear history. and they don't take 6 years to research it. What would you say to my listening audience to help them understand
00:17:06.849 --> 00:17:11.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the importance of going the next step when we hear something like this.
00:17:12.369 --> 00:17:15.240 Sarah Sanderson: So I think what really
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:34.929 Sarah Sanderson: prepared me to go on that journey was something that happened to me 20 years ago. and again, as you mentioned, it was all about leaving and seeing things in a new way, and then coming back. And so, when I was more than 20 years ago. So when I was 20 years old,
00:17:35.050 --> 00:17:40.769 Sarah Sanderson: I. When I was in college, I spent a semester in Malawi, in East Africa.
00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:42.250 Sarah Sanderson: and
00:17:42.340 --> 00:17:45.250 I was full of like.
00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:55.249 Sarah Sanderson: you know, confidence and my self worth was wrapped up in thinking of myself as like a
00:17:55.380 --> 00:18:01.380 Sarah Sanderson: good white person. You know I was gonna go and save all those little African babies.
00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:11.669 Sarah Sanderson: and I my first morning in Malawi I woke up. I looked out the window. There was a group of men just
00:18:11.730 --> 00:18:14.009 standing sitting under a tree.
00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:18.240 Sarah Sanderson: and the first thought that came into my head was.
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:24.800 Sarah Sanderson: This is a dangerous place. And then the second thought I had was.
00:18:24.850 --> 00:18:41.550 Sarah Sanderson: you only think that because they're black, and I had no idea I had no idea that that was a lie that was in my own brain. And so it was, you know, and I think that if I had had that thought somewhere in the Us like
00:18:41.630 --> 00:19:03.709 Sarah Sanderson: oh, this is a dangerous place. II would have run it through another cultural filter like, Oh, it's the alleys or the gang colors, or, you know, like there would have been something else to separate me from. This. Racism had landed in my own self. But when I was in Africa none of that, you know, was just like this beautiful, sunny, tropical place.
00:19:04.140 --> 00:19:18.329 Sarah Sanderson: and when I realized that I thought it was a dangerous place, then I was able to see. Oh, that's white supremacy that's lodged itself in me. And so I sat with that for decades.
00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:30.460 Sarah Sanderson: But didn't really know what to do with it, or how to. But it was, but I knew it was there. And so that awareness. And then, when when I started researching Jacob Vanderpool.
00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:34.240 Sarah Sanderson: it was like, Okay, I'm gonna pick up
00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:52.510 Sarah Sanderson: what I first realized in Malawi, and and because I knew like it had been sitting in me for so long, I just knew all right. It's time I've got to figure this out. So you know, it's interesting, because obviously you are the type of person who thinks deeply
00:19:52.510 --> 00:20:09.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: about things. And I think one of the things we wanna encourage our listening audience to do is to find that stuff this uncomfortable and shake it up a little bit into keep thinking about it, because there are other people who would have looked out of out that window, and they would have thought it.
00:20:09.530 --> 00:20:28.129 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and still just kept going, and so I'm glad that you were paying attention, being in tune it, which is, which is really the other thing that I talk about when I'm doing the meditations with folks with that inner part of you. So now so now you, you learn this information. When your brother shocks you.
00:20:28.570 --> 00:20:30.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: tell us about them
00:20:31.070 --> 00:20:40.309 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: how you discovered your family's involvement, and then what that was like for you, emotionally, psychologically.
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:57.709 Sarah Sanderson: So III had started to research Jacob Vanderpool, and I knew that this had happened in Oregon City, which is a town just right around the corner from me the first incorporated city west of the Rocky Mountains end of the Oregon Trail. I mean, it was like, first, anything
00:20:57.710 --> 00:21:12.649 Sarah Sanderson: in the West was in Oregon City, even though today it's just this tiny little suburb. I mean it. It's proud of itself. But you know it's not really a destination anymore. But it was a major destination for everybody who is coming over on the Oregon Trail. So
00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:31.590 Sarah Sanderson: anyway, I knew that Jacob Vanderpool story had happened in Oregon City. and one day, actually, interestingly, II just was scrolling back on my phone and I found the pick. The first picture I took of this, and I realized I took it on my birthday. So I was on a birthday stroll with my family just just walking through Oregon City.
00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:39.839 Sarah Sanderson: and I looked at one of the houses on the cliff there, and there was one of those historic plaques on the house.
00:21:40.180 --> 00:21:45.729 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know how it'll say like the such and such house. And it, said
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:47.859 Sarah Sanderson: the Lottery House.
00:21:48.350 --> 00:21:55.409 Sarah Sanderson: and I was like, wait, that's my grandmother's maiden name, and I had no idea. I mean.
00:21:56.190 --> 00:22:20.990 Sarah Sanderson: I just like II knew that that was her maiden name, but I didn't know that I was connected to this town that I'm now living around the corner from, and so I called up my aunt, and I said, do we have family from Oregon City, and they're like, Yes, I didn't know. And so then I started, and my aunt sent me a picture of this family tree that kind of details, like all the lottery
00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:31.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's through all the hundreds of years, I mean, we've been here for a long time, and so I start looking at this family tree, and it says like who came over on the Oregon Trail when and
00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:40.450 Sarah Sanderson: and so that I started to get into my genealogy. And and then, when I realized like, Oh.
00:22:40.750 --> 00:22:42.890 Sarah Sanderson: these people were here
00:22:43.200 --> 00:23:02.380 Sarah Sanderson: at that same time, like, I've got this one interest, Jacob Vanderpool. And then I've got this other new interest like Oh, my family came over on the Oregon trail I didn't even know. And then, when I put them together and started imagining them in the same town at the same time. Then I started to realize
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:15.870 Sarah Sanderson: this is personal for me. and and I need to take responsibility for it in a different way. So so what was the emotion that came up for you when you
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:18.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: discovered this?
00:23:18.290 --> 00:23:26.650 Sarah Sanderson: There was a lot of shame. and there was a lot of fear. I, you know, in writing the book I kind of
00:23:26.670 --> 00:23:39.040 Sarah Sanderson: on this structure for the book that I kind of go back and forth between these people in 1851 who were part of this case. And then each one of those stories kind of
00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:55.419 Sarah Sanderson: I use that to look at a different thing inside myself. And so I look at John Mclaughlin, who founded Oregon City, and then I look at my own ignorance, and I look at Theophilus Magruder, who press charges against Jacob Vanderpool, and then I look at my own
00:23:55.550 --> 00:24:03.359 Sarah Sanderson: selfishness and greed, and the privilege that I've received, and and so so II wanted to look at that.
00:24:03.570 --> 00:24:13.919 Sarah Sanderson: but I also felt a lot of shame about it, and I felt a lot of fear that a I mean a a. As I was writing. There were all of these
00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:20.320 Sarah Sanderson: voices in my head, and I could imagine you know somebody might say. you know. Oh.
00:24:20.800 --> 00:24:28.989 how dare you even like talk about racism, anyway, you know. Like, why are you even making a big deal of it? So that was one voice that I heard in my head. And
00:24:29.130 --> 00:24:42.219 Sarah Sanderson: and then there was this other voice. I was really afraid that people of color would read about my implicit biases and think like, Oh, we have nothing to do with you like, how dare you have those thoughts? And
00:24:42.380 --> 00:24:45.810 Sarah Sanderson: and then, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm just there, all these
00:24:45.840 --> 00:25:11.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Po, this chorus of possible responses that I and those are very real responses. How did through it? Because I think our audience would find that important. How do you get beyond the shame and the fear to that next step? I mean it. It really, you know, I appreciate that you're talking about faith, because it really did feel like I had to believe that God was
00:25:12.020 --> 00:25:20.980 Sarah Sanderson: pulling me forward and saying to me, like you, you have nothing to lose like I love you.
00:25:20.990 --> 00:25:25.870 Sarah Sanderson: I'm with you like it. Really. I did have to think like
00:25:26.990 --> 00:25:43.239 Sarah Sanderson: I have nothing to lose, like I'm I'm not some big celebrity with a big platform, and I'm gonna get cancelled like if I get cancelled, I go back to substituting in the kindergarten down the street like it doesn't matter right? So it was. It was a lot of that. It was
00:25:43.410 --> 00:25:47.490 Sarah Sanderson: trusting in my own belovedness, and realizing that
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.549 Sarah Sanderson: I had nothing to lose.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:26:04.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, I appreciate you saying that you had nothing to lose. But since we're to, since you're a woman of faith, you will get this, particularly since your husband is a minister. You know what I am as well, and the Presbyterian one in my book I talk about Esther.
00:26:04.700 --> 00:26:25.739 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who obviously had much to lose if she did, whether she did or didn't, you know, save the Jews. But here's the thing Esther temporarily wanted to stay in her privilege, and what I hear you saying like, when people talk about this fear and try to decide if they're gonna make a decision. The fear is, am I gonna lose my privilege.
00:26:25.990 --> 00:26:29.549 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and rather than asking the question, Are we going to lose it?
00:26:29.710 --> 00:26:41.209 Sarah Sanderson: The question is, what will happen to other people if I don't use, so I'm glad that you decided that you were going to go ahead and write the book, anyway. And so
00:26:41.230 --> 00:26:52.199 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: how did your life change after? You really discovered that your relative? So you started to say a little bit about
00:26:52.280 --> 00:26:57.739 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: learning about them. But how do you think your life changed when you like. Oh, my goodness, this really is
00:26:58.050 --> 00:27:06.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: my family was involved, and you said the words. I had to take responsibility. So what is taken? Responsibility mean.
00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:15.159 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And and and we'll start. But I know we're gonna have to take break in just a few minutes in about a minute. So why don't we start with you sharing a bit of that?
00:27:16.610 --> 00:27:39.939 Sarah Sanderson: Yeah. So II mean, I think, first of all, taking responsibility involved connecting the dots between the history and my own heart, and really being willing to examine like, Okay, what really is here that I try to ignore. And it felt like that was the work that I had to do before I could do the work of
00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:51.499 Sarah Sanderson: helping anybody else in my community. Or you know what I mean. It was like this all in myself, needs to be dealt with before I can start to do anything. That makes a difference for anybody else.
00:27:51.540 --> 00:28:04.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, exactly. And that's why I talked about even in my book. I'm like you have to heal the separation. You know, of of racism that that exists between you and the next person that has to start
00:28:04.590 --> 00:28:18.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in the inside. So I really appreciate that. And so what what you've really been talking about today is this awareness that we first must have obviously to to even do the dismantle racism and then owning
00:28:19.220 --> 00:28:26.139 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: our own part. Perpetuation of you can't do anything
00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:34.379 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: about your ancestors can do something about yourself. We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back
00:28:34.900 --> 00:28:47.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: want to talk a little bit about some of the steps that we need to take to repair the path. Okay, so I am here today with my guests, Sarah Sanderson. She has written a book. The place we make
00:28:47.930 --> 00:28:54.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: break in the legacy of legalized hate. We'll be right back with the dismantle racism show.
00:30:57.760 --> 00:31:02.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with the dismantle racism show
00:31:02.630 --> 00:31:11.729 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and Sarah before the break I mentioned that I would love for you to talk a little bit about how we repair the past. But before, do that
00:31:12.500 --> 00:31:25.429 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I don't. I want people to buy your book. So of course we don't want to give away everything in the book. But you know, how did Jacob's life change after the trial because he was tried for being
00:31:25.610 --> 00:31:31.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: black, and he was no longer able to be a resident in that town. So tell us about a little bit about him.
00:31:31.730 --> 00:31:52.100 Sarah Sanderson: Yeah. So his business was taken away, his his ability to to make you know to make a life for himself. And he was forced to leave the State of Oregon and it took a lot of digging and a lot of help from my friends that Oregon black pioneers.
00:31:52.550 --> 00:32:09.490 Sarah Sanderson: But I was able to find out that he did return to New York, where he had a wife and 3 young children, and I don't know, but I imagine that why he went to Oregon in the first place, was that he was hoping to establish a a place where he could bring his family.
00:32:09.500 --> 00:32:19.960 Sarah Sanderson: And so it's not just about how did life change for him, although that was devastating to have his business removed and his dreams were squashed.
00:32:20.110 --> 00:32:50.350 Sarah Sanderson: But then, also, there's these like generations of his future children and grandchildren who could have stayed here in Oregon. you know. My family came over on the Oregon Trail and stayed and became Oregon's judges and mayors and teachers and lawyers. You know all kinds of things. I mean, there are lot of in all sorts of places around Oregon. There's a park named after one of my cousins. It's over in Oregon City, you know. And so just comparing those 2,
00:32:50.410 --> 00:33:04.279 Sarah Sanderson: the the Vander pools and the Lotorettes, the loterets are still here. The Vander pools are not, and so that changed what Oregon is, and not just the Vander pools, but all the other
00:33:04.280 --> 00:33:21.559 Sarah Sanderson: African Americans who, I mean we know of at least one African American who came over on the Oregon Trail heard about the Exclusion law, and then turned and went north to Seattle because he thought, Okay, I'm not welcome there. So the the both, the people who were actually
00:33:21.560 --> 00:33:38.860 Sarah Sanderson: physically sent out, and the ones who never came at all. And we we changed what this place is we? I mean, they, my ancestors, right? They change what we're doing now with with the laws that we're changing. Now, we're actually trying to make it
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:57.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: white again. So when we say things like make it great again, we're talking about make it white, right? And and even though that's not the slogan anymore, we see with the laws and the policies, the really, the policies that are changing. It really is about making sure that white people
00:33:57.580 --> 00:34:04.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: are going to stay at the top.
00:34:04.230 --> 00:34:18.430 Sarah Sanderson: Oh, go ahead! Oh, I was just gonna say, and to bring it to the present, I mean, you know, I think sometimes it's easy to say like, Well, that happened a long time ago. Like, Is it really still here? Last night I was sitting in the bleachers of my high
00:34:18.734 --> 00:34:46.790 Sarah Sanderson: school soccer stadium, talking to a friend of one of my kids. He's black. He's been adopted into a white family. He's here in this white town. He goes to this, you know, mostly white school, and he's getting racially bullied. And this is probably I mean, I was talking to him about this yesterday, like this is still, I know it's not news to you, but it's still happening. And I think sometimes for those of us who are white, we're just not aware it's still happening
00:34:46.790 --> 00:35:15.529 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: interesting when we talk about that, because this is what people who adopt trans racially don't understand, because they will say, Well, love is love, and then they never pick up a book. I'm not saying this happened with your friend, but but many never pick up a book to even look at race to either. Look at how you connect with a child who's of a different race than you, and what they might experience.
00:35:15.730 --> 00:35:30.099 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and that actually is perpetuating, because people say, Well, love is love. Yes, and love is love. But when you love someone, here's the next step that
00:35:30.240 --> 00:35:34.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because you have to understand how that history
00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:56.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is going to impact, how people show up, and how that child shows up right. And what happens when that child doesn't show up in a way that says, Well, wait a minute. I know what race I am right. No race is a social construct, but based on society.
00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:59.719 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That child shows up in a different way that
00:35:59.870 --> 00:36:06.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: they don't acknowledge or understand who they are. It's just troubles down the road right?
00:36:06.210 --> 00:36:08.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But
00:36:08.530 --> 00:36:18.569 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I thank you for giving that example, and there are many, many other examples we can give that as well. Now talk a little bit
00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:21.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: about repair.
00:36:21.160 --> 00:36:28.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How do we repair the past. How do we create this where things like that don't continue to happen?
00:36:29.050 --> 00:36:30.450 Sarah Sanderson: So I
00:36:30.630 --> 00:36:42.060 Sarah Sanderson: I mean, on one level, I wanna say, like, I don't know. And I'm still figuring it out right. But the the steps that are sort of opening themselves to me are to look at
00:36:42.070 --> 00:37:11.310 Sarah Sanderson: of my very specific history and my very specific community context. And I think that that's important, because it's easy to to look at the whole thing and say, this is too big. This is too much like, what can I do about something that's happening on the other side of the world, or the country, or whatever? But every single store. Every single place has a story, and so you know, for I would encourage the listeners today
00:37:11.310 --> 00:37:37.379 Sarah Sanderson: to look about to look at like your family, your church, your city, your community, your club, your neighborhood, and maybe do a little digging like what? What were the bylaws? What's on the deed? What did grandma used to say, you know, like what are the specific things that have built, the places that and the groups and the communities that we inhabit.
00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:57.149 Sarah Sanderson: and then I think once we begin to find those questions out, then the steps to repair will be a little more obvious because they're they're local. So like, there's a town in Waldport, Oregon. It's a little tiny town on the coast of Oregon
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:08.169 Sarah Sanderson: that most people just drive through on their way to somewhere else. Right? We've got our big like. If you come to Oregon Coast you're going to Canon Beach or seaside. You're not going to Wallport, but Walt Port
00:38:08.330 --> 00:38:10.550 Sarah Sanderson: had a road.
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:14.599 Sarah Sanderson: It was called Darky Creek Road.
00:38:15.050 --> 00:38:24.990 Sarah Sanderson: and they decided to ask themselves, What's the story behind this road? And what they found out is there's there was a man who lived
00:38:25.350 --> 00:38:29.579 Sarah Sanderson: down that road a hundred more than a hundred years ago.
00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:42.999 Sarah Sanderson: His name was Louis Southworth. He'd love to play the fiddle. He wanted to come to the local church, and they told him no, and so he would go, and he would place Fiddle, you know, out in the fields.
00:38:43.200 --> 00:39:01.819 Sarah Sanderson: And so this is. we're talking about one man in one community. And so the people of Waldport, Oregon decided that they wanted to raise money to commission a sculpture of Lewis South Worth, which they put in a prominent place in their town. They renamed the road. It's not Darky Creek Road anymore. It's South Worth road.
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:12.729 Sarah Sanderson: And so I think tangible things like that are ways that we can look at history. And we can begin to repair it and to say, Okay, this isn't who we wanna be anymore.
00:39:12.890 --> 00:39:39.229 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We're sorry that Louis Southworth wasn't valued and wasn't able to belong to this community. And we're gonna turn a corner on that and becomes a different kind of community going forward. You know what's really interesting. And and I know other places are doing that. And I'm delighted. Because we all use the term. We we could all pass by there, even as people of color and go Darky Creek, and not even think about. But
00:39:39.340 --> 00:39:45.919 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know. II wanna just stress that it's wonderful to think about what's happening
00:39:45.950 --> 00:39:52.799 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: on the community level. But I love that. You said, what's happening in your church. That's why.
00:39:53.560 --> 00:40:03.359 Sarah Sanderson: Because I see a lot of well meaning good white people who go to church every Sunday who don't want to hear about race.
00:40:03.530 --> 00:40:12.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I used to pastor predominantly white Church. My, my audiences probably heard me say this before, and I was told by one individual in church.
00:40:12.410 --> 00:40:21.329 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It's okay for you to talk about race. But Sunday morning in the pulpit is not the time to do it. It's not the time to do it in the pulpit. When is the time to do it? Right?
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:34.679 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right? You know what? And so the thing that I think about. and I actually used to attend this this church. Before I eventually became the pastor, and I remember
00:40:34.850 --> 00:40:39.030 Sarah Sanderson: when Senator Obama became President, hmm.
00:40:39.260 --> 00:40:48.039 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I remember to going to church that Sunday, and there was not one word. And being President.
00:40:48.050 --> 00:41:01.449 Sarah Sanderson: and for me it wasn't so much about what your politics are, whether you're Republican or Democrat. This was historical. There's no mention of it
00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:04.380 Sarah Sanderson: that was troubling for me. Yeah.
00:41:04.430 --> 00:41:07.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So so so we have to
00:41:07.560 --> 00:41:15.680 Sarah Sanderson: like whitewash, literally white. Wash everything so that everybody in there would be comfortable.
00:41:15.860 --> 00:41:22.669 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yeah, that's outrageous. And so we we can start saying to people as you're saying, like, Examine
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:49.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: everything, examine your thoughts. When your friends over a black person. Examine whether you're worried about whether your child would date a black or brown person. So that's why we have to start taking that look within. And so I so appreciate you just listing, what are the books that they that the kids are reading
00:41:49.780 --> 00:41:55.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and that we want our kids to read.
00:41:55.710 --> 00:42:03.300 Sarah Sanderson: Yeah, and you're right. The churches are places that are often silent.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:29.879 Sarah Sanderson: And II think that so much of the time silence is because of those things I named earlier shame and fear. And it's so weird to me because church is supposed to be a place where we know that we're forgiven. Right like that's the whole point of church is to come to a place and say like, Yes, there's sin in the world, and Jesus loves us and forgives us. I mean, that's
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:34.049 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the message of church. Right? And so. But but most people.
00:42:34.250 --> 00:42:40.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: most people who who are supposed to be Christian, right cause I'm talking about a particular.
00:42:40.920 --> 00:43:03.899 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If they were really following Jesus as I preach about Jesus was radical and revolutionary, it would not have tolerated any of this. So so we do have to take quick break, and I do want to come when we come back. Just re really Have you to talk about this lament and
00:43:03.900 --> 00:43:12.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that you talk about, because I think that's a part of of this week. We don't stay in shame because it's not
00:43:12.970 --> 00:43:14.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: purpose.
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:25.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So how do we? How do we lament about what we feel in a healthy way? We're gonna come right back and continue our conversation with Sarah Sanderson. We will be right back.
00:45:29.700 --> 00:45:36.069 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with my guest today. Sarah Sanderson, who is the author of the place we make
00:45:36.190 --> 00:45:51.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breaking the legacy of legalized hate before the break we were talking about, you know, forgiveness and that sort of thing. And and and we're talking because the 2 of us are very steeped in in church. And so
00:45:51.150 --> 00:46:04.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: obviously, that that's something really important in our faith journey. But you mentioned you've mentioned, you know, in our our conversations about this need to limit.
00:46:04.450 --> 00:46:05.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: First, tell us
00:46:05.950 --> 00:46:11.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what you mean by the word limit. And then
00:46:13.140 --> 00:46:16.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: why is that so important?
00:46:16.720 --> 00:46:17.510 Sarah Sanderson: Yeah.
00:46:18.160 --> 00:46:26.199 Sarah Sanderson: Well, I think of lament as naming what's wrong
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:28.490 Sarah Sanderson: and
00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:39.700 Sarah Sanderson: allowing, you know it's not like emotions are on command, but as emotions come to allow them to come, because it is.
00:46:40.040 --> 00:46:50.150 Sarah Sanderson: I mean, there's there's so much to grieve, and you know we we see, lament all through the Bible, the psalms of lament and different things, just that
00:46:50.180 --> 00:47:00.519 Sarah Sanderson: naming what's wrong, and even naming our own part in it, and I don't know. Tell me what you think about this, but I think a lot about we kind of
00:47:00.790 --> 00:47:14.450 Sarah Sanderson: we wanna kind of shame white tears, the idea of white tears, you know, and I know that white people can cry for manipulative reasons, or to make ourselves the victim. And that's not what I'm talking about. But
00:47:14.510 --> 00:47:25.859 Sarah Sanderson: I think white people need to cry more about these these history and the present, you know, I mean, it's it's a lot
00:47:26.450 --> 00:47:56.050 Sarah Sanderson: we need to allow ourselves to grieve. And then I think about the corollary. You know IAA lot of, and tell me what you think about this. So I think a lot of black people will say like, Oh, I'm not angry. I'm not angry, you know, like it's okay for you to be angry. There's a lot to be angry about, so like if we could just allow people to feel their emotions like white people need to cry. Black people need to get angry. It's okay, like, there's a lot.
00:47:56.050 --> 00:48:23.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Here's the thing history is a part of. Why that happens right, particularly when white women have cried have died, even even women have died. So that's why, if we don't talk about what's happened historically, we continue to have these relationships that are based on history we're not supposed to think about. I agree with you that
00:48:25.170 --> 00:48:43.209 Sarah Sanderson: white people should be sorrowful about this, and that's what the limit is. The weeping and wailing people with the wailing women that Jeremiah about because it should be mourning. The fact that so many lives have been lost and devastated because
00:48:43.210 --> 00:49:01.779 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: white people have actually been impacted by racism as well. White people don't know it, and just kind of think about their privileges. What you're missing. So thank you for for sort of sharing that that piece about
00:49:01.820 --> 00:49:13.609 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: lamenting. Now, what do I think in terms of us being angry? I think that yes, we should be angry in terms of
00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:22.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's righteous anger. There's an you know, indignation and all of this. I think the reason why
00:49:23.390 --> 00:49:42.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: people kind of talk about not being angry. It's because people just assume that we are and like it's the white woman's tears, and it's black women's anger, right? I used to do a workshop around that because we're not smiling. And the truth of the matter is
00:49:42.920 --> 00:50:08.079 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we understand racism so well that we also understand we can't walk around being angry all the time because it's not good for our souls, because for us our spiritual well being is important even for people who are not in charge. Spiritual. Well, being is important, and if I walk around angry all the time, it's not gonna do anything to kill me
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:19.459 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right. But you know, if I can use beyonce for a minute, she say you won't break my soul right trying to break. That's a part of
00:50:19.870 --> 00:50:24.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of of what happens. And so so it's interesting, though.
00:50:24.530 --> 00:50:35.169 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when white people do see us get angry like in a protest, then they're like scared and and but what they should.
00:50:35.330 --> 00:50:51.929 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As this one woman said on a video, she said, you better be glad, though, that that basically we're not trying to get revenge. Just let us be. Let us be express a frustrations and our emotions
00:50:52.160 --> 00:51:15.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: cause. That's what we wanted. We're not trying to get revenge right right? And so so what you're saying is true. There should be some crying, and there should be anger. But it's important to understand why people are. I wanna ask you, though really quickly, because I know we're gonna be ending soon. So there's the lamenting
00:51:15.500 --> 00:51:23.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and getting all of that out. So what what do you say about
00:51:25.540 --> 00:51:28.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the repentance and accepting
00:51:28.620 --> 00:51:30.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the forgiveness.
00:51:30.580 --> 00:51:33.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or or let me ask it a different way.
00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:41.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How do you forgive yourself because you talked about people being in that Shane? And I find it a hold on so so talk to me about
00:51:42.070 --> 00:51:45.160 Sarah Sanderson: forgiveness. Hmm. hmm!
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:51.009 Sarah Sanderson: So I recently was looking at the Lord's Prayer, where
00:51:51.130 --> 00:52:03.309 Sarah Sanderson: you know Jesus teaches His disciples to pray, and he says, Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And I was thinking about that. We're debtors. It means someone who owes you something
00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:24.579 Sarah Sanderson: right? It's not we're not talking about like somebody who just bumped up against you and like whoops. It was an accident like, oh, I forgive you. It's like, no, this person owes you something. They should have treated you differently, and they didn't. And so like when we talk about forgiveness. I think it's an important first step to acknowledge.
00:52:24.910 --> 00:52:33.879 Sarah Sanderson: No, there's something wrong, you know, whether it's whether we're forgetting some forgiving someone else or forgiving ourselves like, it's okay to say, like.
00:52:36.710 --> 00:53:06.110 Sarah Sanderson: did something wrong. To be honest about that. But then I was thinking about you know how we forgive someone who owes us something. It's really not possible unless someone else has given you the thing that they owed you right? So that's why it's so important to know that we receive love from God, because when we know that we have received all the riches that God is giving us in the heavenly realms, then we're we're rich enough
00:53:06.310 --> 00:53:13.900 Sarah Sanderson: to forgive someone who owes us something. So so let me say something about that then, because, of course, you know, I preach a few things about. Forgive me
00:53:13.930 --> 00:53:19.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: now and again. But the thing that I want people to understand
00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:22.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: forgiveness, though, does not require me
00:53:23.270 --> 00:53:30.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to buddy up with you, done something, and you've heard me, and I think that all too often
00:53:30.210 --> 00:53:41.249 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: people want us to go through this like, can you just forgive us? And just well, yes, I can truly, truly forgive you.
00:53:41.300 --> 00:54:02.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but God also doesn't require me. Be silent about the inequities that, and and to let it be life as usual, Sarah, you know we're running out of time here, and I just wonder, before before we end by you giving us some words of inspiration here.
00:54:02.780 --> 00:54:11.349 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is there anything that you want to say to our audience that you feel like? You haven't said that you want to make sure that you get
00:54:14.540 --> 00:54:25.620 Sarah Sanderson: I think I just wanna speak to the fear. II know that a lot of white people think well, I don't know what to say, or I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing.
00:54:25.730 --> 00:54:31.530 Sarah Sanderson: but it. This is
00:54:31.580 --> 00:54:35.469 Sarah Sanderson: this problem is ours to solve. Right?
00:54:35.710 --> 00:54:47.199 Sarah Sanderson: White people made this problem. And as white people, we have the opportunity and the holy privilege to step up. And yes, we're gonna say the wrong thing sometimes, but
00:54:47.940 --> 00:54:51.610 Sarah Sanderson: we can't let our fear hold us back because
00:54:52.230 --> 00:55:02.990 Sarah Sanderson: these problems are still happening on our watch. So step up, Sarah, I want to thank you so much for your time on the show. Tell people how they can get in touch with you.
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:18.229 Sarah Sanderson: So I have a website. It's www. Dot Sarah L. Sanderson com, and that's a Sarah with an h and you can drop me a line through that website, and I would be happy to hear from you. That is so great. Now
00:55:18.410 --> 00:55:24.159 Sarah Sanderson: give us some words of inspiration. Alright! Here's my blessing for you all, dear listeners.
00:55:24.610 --> 00:55:27.929 Sarah Sanderson: May you know deep in your soul
00:55:28.220 --> 00:55:30.900 Sarah Sanderson: that you are beloved.
00:55:32.110 --> 00:55:42.739 Sarah Sanderson: where you have received hurt. may you be healed where you have caused hurt. May you know that you are forgiven.
00:55:43.330 --> 00:55:48.599 Sarah Sanderson: and as you go forward into this day, may the steps that are yours to take.
00:55:48.740 --> 00:55:55.230 Sarah Sanderson: reveal themselves to you. and may you be filled with the courage to take them.
00:55:55.430 --> 00:55:56.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.
00:55:56.690 --> 00:56:21.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: thank you. Thank you for that, Sarah. I want to thank you for being a guest on my show today. I wanna thank you for all the wonderful insights. Thank my listeners. And please do listeners go out by the book, the place we make breaking the legacy of legalized hate. There's wonderful information for you, and it might encourage you not just to write your own book, but to get out there and to chat.
00:56:21.620 --> 00:56:35.489 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: change the world, stay tuned for the conscious consultant hour with Sam Lewis, where he helps you to walk through life with the greatest of ease and joy. Be well, be safe, be encouraged until next time.
00:56:35.490 --> 00:56:36.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Bye, for now
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