[NEW EPISODE] I Thought I Was White

Thursdays 11:00am - 12:00pm (EDT)

EPISODE SUMMARY:

The audience will hear how navigating whiteness may impact one's sense of self.

Navigating whiteness and white culture is common for people of color. Often it is necessary to preserve one's life and livelihood. Many BIPOC have had to make the difficult decision to move out of neighborhoods that are populated with people of color to white neighborhoods in order to set their children up for success. The educational, economical, and medical privileges in these neighborhoods outweigh those in BIPOC communities. Indeed there are benefits to moving to these neighborhoods, but there is also a significant cost.

Join Rev. Dr. TLC as she sits down with Michael Grant, songwriter and music producer, as they discuss the impact of growing up in a predominantly white neighborhood. He will share how "he thought he was white" and what that did to his sense of self. Michael will also share  how he learned to embrace his heritage and create a foundation that honors who he is and that inspires adjudicated youth and black and brown youth to become involved in the music industry.

#ithoughtiwaswhite #dismantleracism #healingseparationfromtheinsideout #sacredintelligence #givemusic

Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc

Show Notes

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4

Transcript

00:00:08.830 --> 00:00:25.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hello, and welcome to the dismantle racism show. I've been gone a while, and you all had the opportunity to go back and listen to some of the shows that perhaps you haven't heard before, but it is great to be back on the show today. Live

00:00:25.390 --> 00:00:39.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the goal of our show, as you know, is to help to uncover, eradicate and dismantle racism. And one of the ways in which we do that is, we hear about the stories of everyday people who are just

00:00:39.410 --> 00:00:56.479 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: doing their part to dismantle racism, because often when we talk about what can we do to change the status quo, we think that we have to go out here and do something that gives us this grand publicity, maybe, or something that that's like a big feat.

00:00:56.480 --> 00:01:05.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But what I always say is, start where you are, use what you have and do what you can is author, Ash would say. So that's why the stories are important

00:01:05.410 --> 00:01:25.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for us to listen to, to make a determination about whether there are things that we could be doing, that we're absolutely not doing. And so I want you to be able to listen to the show today and really figure out, where are you in that whole process?

00:01:25.190 --> 00:01:53.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So if you would, I want to invite you to do what I always invite you to do is to get ready for us to have a bit of meditation time, and that is so we can bring ourselves into the space that we need to be in in order to have this conversation that we're gonna have today very excited to to be talking about the conversation, and I want you to be prepared. So if you would.

00:01:53.420 --> 00:02:00.019 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and if you are able to, I want to invite you to please close your eyes.

00:02:01.820 --> 00:02:07.019 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and then I want you to close your eyes and connect with your breath.

00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:12.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: just simply began to breathe in and out.

00:02:13.760 --> 00:02:16.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out at your normal rhythm

00:02:18.500 --> 00:02:22.459 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connected with that divine part of who you are

00:02:24.220 --> 00:02:28.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with your sacred intelligence.

00:02:30.200 --> 00:02:34.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that part of you that helps you to make good choices.

00:02:35.700 --> 00:02:44.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: choices that will help you to manifest your greatness while helping others to manifest their greatness.

00:02:45.590 --> 00:02:50.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So breathe in and out, connecting with the sacred intelligence.

00:02:52.330 --> 00:02:54.859 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because your sacred intelligence

00:02:56.040 --> 00:03:07.629 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: will really prompt you. and Willie let you know. Not only was good for you. but it'll let you know what's good for others.

00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:17.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It'll help to protect you from allowing others to do things to you. You will be mindful even of what you do to yourself.

00:03:19.460 --> 00:03:21.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because the choices

00:03:21.910 --> 00:03:25.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: are always for your best interests.

00:03:25.970 --> 00:03:30.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and the person with whom you're advocating for

00:03:32.920 --> 00:03:36.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so just breathe in and out.

00:03:37.920 --> 00:03:39.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with your power.

00:03:42.890 --> 00:03:46.669 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with your source, whatever your source is.

00:03:48.760 --> 00:03:57.739 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: just breathe in and out. Recognizing that you have the power to change the status quo

00:03:59.630 --> 00:04:07.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: as you breathe in and out. Think about the people who've come before you. the people who fought for justice.

00:04:08.130 --> 00:04:12.969 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who advocated for racial equality, gender, equality.

00:04:14.100 --> 00:04:16.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: sexuality, equality.

00:04:19.260 --> 00:04:22.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: just breathe in and out, and give gratitude for them.

00:04:24.550 --> 00:04:28.459 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And now give gratitude for those people who are around you now.

00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:31.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who support you in your efforts.

00:04:32.730 --> 00:04:35.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: whether it be family friends, colleagues.

00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:39.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: just give gratitude

00:04:41.050 --> 00:04:42.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for them.

00:04:44.740 --> 00:04:47.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and now give gratitude for yourself.

00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The ways in which you continue to show up.

00:04:53.740 --> 00:04:57.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Give gratitude for the learning and the missteps.

00:05:01.130 --> 00:05:03.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just give gratitude for your gifts.

00:05:06.320 --> 00:05:13.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and recognize that you are in the right place. the right body, the right position.

00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:16.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the right socioeconomic status

00:05:17.550 --> 00:05:21.119 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for you to change the status quo.

00:05:22.730 --> 00:05:26.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You've been born for such a time as this.

00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:44.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Once you take a deep breath in and just breathe out slowly. and as you do recognize that the power of one contributes to the power

00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:45.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of community.

00:05:49.850 --> 00:05:54.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we say, and so it is. Pasha.

00:05:55.060 --> 00:06:17.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery:  Oh, I always feel much better after that, and I hope that you all do as well because it helps again to commas and to center us for this dynamic conversation that we are about to have. And so today I am going to be talking about navigating whiteness.

00:06:17.590 --> 00:06:33.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it's interesting, because when I use that term, sometimes people might think that I'm actually referring to white people. I am referring to whiteness, which is something that, no matter what your color is, we have to navigate.

00:06:33.390 --> 00:06:39.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: have to navigate this structure that is based on white supremacy.

00:06:40.150 --> 00:06:46.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Sometimes what happens when we navigate whiteness as people of color.

00:06:46.870 --> 00:06:51.449 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we navigate it so well that it actually confuses us.

00:06:51.690 --> 00:07:01.299 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And we actually began to be in this place of thinking that we're just like, perhaps the white people that were hanging around.

00:07:01.390 --> 00:07:27.779 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, that has an impact on our psyche. It has an impact on who we are. It has an impact on our racial identity development, because often we're not able to to see the racism that's showing up in the world. And, as a matter of fact, sometimes we actually can turn on one another because we're so close to imitating whiteness and the white world

00:07:27.810 --> 00:07:37.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that we really sort of forget about who we are until something happens that calls us back to who we are.

00:07:39.270 --> 00:07:48.249 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I won't go through all the racial identity development. But I do want to just invite you whenever you have an opportunity.

00:07:48.290 --> 00:08:17.749 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So please, just Google racial identity development. I write about it in my book on dismantling racism. You can learn about it there as well. But when you look it up. There's information there, that's about white racial identity development, black racial identity development, asian ace, racial identity development and on and on and on. And one of the things that's really I think central and all of them is sort of this this idea of pre encounter

00:08:17.750 --> 00:08:22.739 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: before we wake up. What are we like in our skin.

00:08:22.740 --> 00:08:45.999 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How are we responding to what is going on? Who are we leading more towards? And it's usually the white, dominant culture. And then something happens along the way that wakes us up, and we begin to become immersed in who we are racially. And so I want to just invite you to take some time to go back again and

00:08:46.180 --> 00:08:50.799 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: look that information up. But if you are reading my book

00:08:50.920 --> 00:09:04.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: on racial Identity development, I actually talk about racial identity development and equate it with Elizabeth Kubler Ross's death and dying because this process for us

00:09:04.540 --> 00:09:07.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: can feel like we are dying sometimes.

00:09:08.430 --> 00:09:11.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Dr. Michelle Dunlap

00:09:12.060 --> 00:09:18.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is the one who compare the 2 things racial identity development with

00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:37.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Elizabeth Kubler Ross is death and dying, and it is so brilliant the way she did that. And so I wanna encourage you to go back and to look that up. If I were going to teach that today it would probably take the whole hour, and I'm anxious to get to my guest today on the show

00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:53.499 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and and and have a conversation because my guest today is Michael Grant who said I thought that I was white. So I wanna hear a little bit about his story. I saw his, his Youtube video that he did on it. I thought I was white, and it's fascinating.

00:09:53.500 --> 00:09:59.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I know that he is not the only one who feels that way, and there's a danger sometimes

00:09:59.650 --> 00:10:23.429 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when we think that we are white, and so Michael will talk about that just a few minutes. But before I bring him on. I want to tell you that he's the president and founder of Give Music Incorporated. He is a Springfield base, which is a Springfield based nonprofit organization whose mission is to help the world express itself through entertainment technology.

00:10:23.430 --> 00:10:31.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: He's a songwriter and a producer, and he has worked with a number of organization well-known organizations

00:10:31.760 --> 00:10:53.689 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: like Mgm. That is in Springfield. And so I am delighted. So welcome to the show today, Michael Grant. Hello, Michael, how are you? So much for for having me here. And so

00:10:54.380 --> 00:11:04.129 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I wanna start out, Michael, because I love watching your video. I thought I was white. So give us a context of what that means.

00:11:05.400 --> 00:11:21.150 Michael Grant: Well, well, I think I always knew that I wasn't a white man, you know. I wasn't a white man, but I connected with white people more than I connected with black people. Right? So whenever I was going to a social event or

00:11:21.190 --> 00:11:27.549 Michael Grant: the places that I chose to go to, or the people that I befriended all those things. I always

00:11:27.580 --> 00:11:40.720 Michael Grant: went towards the white side of the room, right and musically clothing wise all of those things. I follow that culture to the point where I felt like I was one of them, and I would, you know.

00:11:41.110 --> 00:11:52.119 Michael Grant: try to date the white girls, and do all the things that they did. The one thing I really did was eat non white food, you know. You know. But I was

00:11:52.540 --> 00:12:00.559 Michael Grant: heavily into that culture. So I'd like to know, how did you find yourself heavily into that culture?

00:12:00.560 --> 00:12:24.889 Michael Grant: So growing up, I'm just trying to figure out what I'm trying to do. I don't know if that's what we're going to do is we're going to be able to do that, and then we'll be able to do that, and then we'll see if we're going to be able to see if we're going to be able to do that, and then we'll see if we're going to be able to see if we're going to be able to do that, and then we'll see if we're going to be able to see if we're going to be able to do that. We're going to be able to do that. And then we're going to be able to do that, and then we'll see if we're going to be able to see if we're going to be able to do that, and then we'll be able to do that, and then we'll see if we can do that, and then we'll see if we can do that, and then we'll see if we're going to be able to see if we're going to be able.

00:12:24.910 --> 00:12:30.919 Michael Grant: That's the community I was in, and that's the conversations I had, and that's the life I led. So that's just

00:12:30.930 --> 00:12:53.849 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's what there was for me. Hmm, so what's interesting is oftentimes we, as people of color want to move to different neighborhoods, because we know the schooling is different, the opportunities are different, and we also know that the way we get along in society and move ahead is also based on who you know and your connections.

00:12:53.930 --> 00:13:00.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it is not that culturally. communities of color

00:13:00.790 --> 00:13:09.949 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: outstanding. And there are lots of wonderful things that happen in communities of color, and I want to be sure to say that.

00:13:10.610 --> 00:13:26.839 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But we know because of disparities there, things that are different sometimes economically. So, parents make a decision to move to other neighborhoods. And then you're telling me that really one of the consequences of doing that

00:13:27.140 --> 00:13:28.809 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is the potential

00:13:29.060 --> 00:13:53.639 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of having your child to think that they're white. Now we're gonna take a break and we come back. We're gonna break this down a little bit more. I was one of those parents that moved to a different neighborhood. So I've heard stories from my own children, so I can definitely identify with that. When we come back, Michael, I want to have you to explore that a little bit more. This is the dismantle racism show. I'm your host. The Reverend Doctor Tlc. Will be right back.

00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:29.559 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with my guest today, Michael Grant, songwriter and music producer, and before the break we were talking about you, moving to a predominantly white neighborhood, and as a result of that you tended to gravitate towards whiteness. White people, the music dating all of those things. But

00:16:30.690 --> 00:16:49.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: tell me what you learned about who you were as a black man in those circles. How did you feel about black people? And and you know, what was that process like for that? I'm I'm so happy. You just said that. So to give you an example of what it's like for me.

00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:58.140 Michael Grant: right before the break, you said something you said, you know, sometimes, you know, our culture will move us into a white neighborhood, because there's more

00:16:58.300 --> 00:17:10.009 Michael Grant: what was safer or economic, or whatever right. But wh, what? But that doesn't mean that our culture is less than because we moved away from that area.

00:17:10.030 --> 00:17:11.710 What would happen? My brain

00:17:11.740 --> 00:17:20.890 Michael Grant: instantly says, when when I hear things like that right when my brain does say I don't. As a child, even today I have to consciously stop it.

00:17:21.109 --> 00:17:23.990 Michael Grant: I judge the people, not the location.

00:17:24.050 --> 00:17:44.189 Michael Grant: right. So where I am. When I'm in this white neighborhood I feel safe. I feel economically sound. I feel like I can do something. I can go outside. I like the people I talk to every day, and it's it's a decent space. When I go into a black community I feel like an outsider. I feel unsafe, and I judge the people

00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:58.070 Michael Grant: rather than the location. So I have to. Even to this day I have to consciously set back for a moment and separate the people from the location and the economic disparity, otherwise my brain naturally judges them. It is just

00:17:58.420 --> 00:18:00.790 Michael Grant: mind boggling for me that I have to

00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:21.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: consciously do that and reset myself even to this day. That shows how powerful socialization is right, and that shows how powerful whiteness is because the system has been set up to make us believe that everything white is better. And so that's why in the black communities especially, and if you go to black schools.

00:18:21.070 --> 00:18:31.869 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: schools, they indoctrinate you to say, This is who you are. They help us to understand who we are as a people, and what they also help us to understand

00:18:31.870 --> 00:18:43.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is racism, because what we, what is happening in those neighborhoods where the disparities are is absolutely racism. And when people are put into spaces where they don't have enough of

00:18:43.850 --> 00:19:02.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what they need. You know, like on mass flow hierarchy of need when they they're put into those spaces. Of course, it's not gonna be safe, cause we fight for what we want and what we need, right? So when you're in a white neighborhood, though looking in to those neighborhoods.

00:19:03.150 --> 00:19:04.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You don't

00:19:04.860 --> 00:19:13.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: get a true picture of what's going on. And you do judge the people. But I also wanna say something else that's really important for our listeners to know

00:19:14.100 --> 00:19:31.849 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're talking about particular black neighborhoods because there are some black neighborhoods that are nonviolent, that are high upper middle class neighborhoods and and a lot of those neighborhoods could also be

00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:47.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: not just black. They're mixed very mixed communities. So I wanna be clear with our listeners that we are not saying every community of color is unsafe, and in a lower economic socioeconomic status. But it happens to be

00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:55.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: where we live. In the context of where we live often right and and and for people who

00:19:55.580 --> 00:20:15.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: pay attention, you can almost tell when you cross the color line, and it could just be going from one town to like the minute you're in it. I've been in so many situations like, Oh, we're in a different city now, right? But tell us, then, what your growing up experience was like in terms of how other people

00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:23.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: received you. or if you recognize that there were microaggressions occurring, and how that impacted you.

00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.390 Michael Grant: Microaggressions?

00:20:28.190 --> 00:20:49.480 Michael Grant: well, I don't think at at that time in my life, and all the way through high school, you know, I was. I was living in a white neighborhood and doing the things that white people I thought white people did, whatever. So IA lot of times I wouldn't notice microaggressions, and I would only see it if it was over. So an example was this one particular girl I was into, and I watched her date all of our friends Circle.

00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:59.690 Michael Grant: but when I wanted to date her she was into it. But her older brother was not, and he told me straight up. You know you're not dating my sister period. That was

00:20:59.790 --> 00:21:15.659 Michael Grant: slightly overt to me, and I saw the difference there right, and I had a best friend who it was. That was a weird thing. That's one of my first moments. I remember that very clearly, because my cousin was from the lower economics, you know, area right? And

00:21:15.670 --> 00:21:27.089 Michael Grant: we were at my best friend's house, and we were like, Oh, we're gonna have for breakfast. And he put 2 eggs in the microwave, and, you know, gave us all eggs, and we all ate eggs in the morning, and we were going home one day, and my cousin says

00:21:27.100 --> 00:21:29.399 Michael Grant: you ever notice that when we're at his house

00:21:29.550 --> 00:21:34.099 Michael Grant: we get 2 eggs, but when he comes to our house like

00:21:34.510 --> 00:21:44.119 Michael Grant: Mom, and everybody makes these big breakfast, and he gets to participate, but, like his family avoids us. Have you ever noticed that Mike and I was like, Oh, he's like I do.

00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:46.460 Michael Grant: I noticed that. And I'm like.

00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:51.850 Michael Grant: huh! And it actually was the beginning of the end of my friendship with that particular young man.

00:21:53.660 --> 00:21:56.999 Michael Grant: I didn't notice the things, I was so oblivious to it.

00:21:57.060 --> 00:22:02.469 Michael Grant: You know I was just plain oblivious. As I got older I started to see some things.

00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:10.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so you know, you just said something interesting. It was the beginning of the end of the friendship. Did the friendship end over racial

00:22:11.100 --> 00:22:36.849 Michael Grant: differences? Or, yeah, I would say so. His dad. So, Mike, that particular friend that started to date a a black girl at our school, and his dad wrote him a letter, and that. And he showed me that letter and the letter basically said, You know I'm good to you. I'm a great father to you. I do all these things for you and your your room. And I did this. I did that. But the one place I draw the line is you dating a black girl, and it was real, and I was like.

00:22:37.230 --> 00:22:39.389 Michael Grant: Damn! These people have been great to me.

00:22:39.530 --> 00:22:50.269 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But that's really what they think right? Right? You just took me back to I sometimes teach it.

00:22:50.450 --> 00:23:17.909 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: One of the colleges over here, and in my classes IA lot of my students who is a predominantly white school. And and we talk about race in class all the time. Wherever I'm teaching, I don't care what the topic is right, because I think kids have to. Young people have to be informed when they go into the world, and I can't tell you how many of my students, particularly the white girls who would say

00:23:17.910 --> 00:23:24.329 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: if they tried to date a black person, or even were friends with a black male, they're dead.

00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:37.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The the the attitude would change. Who could come over, who could visit and all these other things. And so these are things that happen, and they impact racially who we know ourselves to be.

00:23:37.790 --> 00:23:42.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what can happen is this, oftentimes we think that there's something wrong

00:23:42.560 --> 00:23:52.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with us, right and not looking at the fact. No, there's something wrong with them because they're the ones who have those boundaries. So tell me, what sorts

00:23:52.690 --> 00:23:54.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of conversations

00:23:54.850 --> 00:24:03.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: did your parents have with you around race? That's one question. The second question, I'll throw it out there. So you can.

00:24:03.750 --> 00:24:05.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Did they know that you thought you were white?

00:24:08.300 --> 00:24:13.370 Michael Grant: What's so? My mom and dad definitely had different views on it.

00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:15.530 Michael Grant: my dad

00:24:15.560 --> 00:24:22.930 Michael Grant: didn't really like white people per se. He was. I think he had had some experiences where he was.

00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:31.029 Michael Grant: He worked for the city, and I think he dealt with a lot of stuff every day that he didn't share with us. but he would definitely every now and then

00:24:31.270 --> 00:24:39.400 Michael Grant: say things that I would be like, okay, he don't like the average white man. He just whatever. I don't remember my dad having any white friends that I could think of.

00:24:39.790 --> 00:24:48.119 Michael Grant: My mom was kind of the opposite in that I think it was. My mom's like, I don't know cause I was one years old, but I think it was my mom's idea to move to that neighborhood.

00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:56.739 Michael Grant: She wanted to be a nurse. She wanted better for her children than she had had growing up. I don't know what she had growing up, because a lot of that was kept from us.

00:24:57.050 --> 00:25:05.049 Michael Grant: but she wanted the best for us, and I think that included education, and that included safety and feeling, like.

00:25:05.350 --> 00:25:12.669 Michael Grant: you know, secure in our home, and financially, too. So it was a very different conversation with my mom than it was with my dad.

00:25:13.020 --> 00:25:35.930 Michael Grant:  so yeah, I forget. You had a second question. I forget what the second question was, and of course you made me think of something else as you were. Say, that question was, you know, what was so surround? What was the conversation that they had with you about race. And you just kind of said your dad really didn't talk about it much. But then, did they know that you thought you wanted.

00:25:37.570 --> 00:25:38.890 Michael Grant: I don't know.

00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:51.360 Michael Grant: I never had that conversation, so both of them have passed. So I didn't have this Major Epiphany about what I actually thought about myself until like 2017 2018.

00:25:51.380 --> 00:26:01.459 Michael Grant: So and I didn't really start coming out of it until George Floyd and the things that were going on in 2020. So this is all new for me, you know a lot of this time.

00:26:01.590 --> 00:26:07.229 Michael Grant: I always believe I could fit in a lot easier. I wanna say that differently. It wasn't just believe

00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:11.620 Michael Grant: I intentionally sought out

00:26:11.810 --> 00:26:17.590 Michael Grant: that culture rather than my own, and I intentionally shunned my people.

00:26:17.670 --> 00:26:22.870 Michael Grant: It was intentional, right? So it's not just oh, I think I'm this that it

00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:43.069 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it was Bo. I guess it was borderline racism, right? I thought the worst of my, if the word to use this is internalized racism concept. When we don't like our people, it's internalized racism. Ultimately you're hating yourself, cause you look at those people. So what were some of the things that you thought about us?

00:26:43.810 --> 00:26:56.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh, you don't have to give all the but, Michael, the reason why I'm I'm asking you. This is because there's someone listening to this radio show now.

00:26:57.220 --> 00:27:06.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who need to wake up themselves. And you are describing your experience. And I know that there's somebody out there is. Gonna say, man.

00:27:06.570 --> 00:27:19.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what? Well, maybe I'm doing that, or like in the case for one of my children. Someone ask her after everything that was going on with George Floyd. They? Then they've gone to high school with her.

00:27:19.950 --> 00:27:41.419 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That was the first time that she's really getting people white people asking her questions around. Well, what was it like for you? I think, she said. There was one time in high school. She was at a party, and at every party they're playing the, you know, hip, hop, music, and with the N. Word in it, and one friend who asked her, Does that bother you?

00:27:41.450 --> 00:28:01.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But see, it wasn't even her party right? So is not like she's gonna go up to the person and say, can you stop playing that music? That's what she had to be exposed to yet. And still most of her friends were white. I mean, there were some biracial folks as well. But most of the time she was really going to be

00:28:01.860 --> 00:28:13.359 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the the the darkest, you know. Chocolate. All that chocolate that was there right? There was not too much, but a lot of white chocolate, right? And so and so

00:28:13.370 --> 00:28:26.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it is important for people to understand what is happening to the Psyche when you are around predominantly white folks. Most of us are bicultural.

00:28:26.760 --> 00:28:36.449 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so most of us know how to navigate whiteness and know how to be when we're in those spaces, and then we know how to be when we're with our folks. So

00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:48.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we have to take a break. But when we come back, if you, if you share just a couple of things about what you thought about black people, and then I want to get into what was the shift

00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:54.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with in 201-72-0180r even 2020, when George Floyd

00:28:55.030 --> 00:28:58.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: passed away. Because I know

00:28:58.320 --> 00:28:59.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that thinking

00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:04.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: around, I know what white people thought when when folks were getting shot up.

00:29:04.970 --> 00:29:13.869 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so you might have been in that camp. So we're gonna come right back and continue this conversation. This is the Dismantle racism show. We will be right back.

00:31:15.500 --> 00:31:33.449 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with my guest, Michael Grant, Michael, before the break. You know we were talking about racial identity, development and your process of understanding who you are, and one of the things that you said was that you purposely shunned us, and you had these thoughts about us, so can you share with us.

00:31:33.450 --> 00:31:48.569 Michael Grant: perhaps, what some of those thoughts were that you had? Yeah, so an example. Couple of examples I thought about first when I was in high school. I remember being invited to a party, and I, my friends party. I went over to her to to the base. It was a basement party.

00:31:48.630 --> 00:31:53.309 Michael Grant: and every song they played I just didn't know was there. For

00:31:53.510 --> 00:32:00.229 Michael Grant: hour and a half I didn't know. Not one song they played. I just felt completely awkward, and I left.

00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:10.700 Michael Grant: So you know, and I was just like, I'm that's not me. They can do that have fun. They look like they had a great time. It's just not me, it's not my music. Another example was

00:32:11.130 --> 00:32:20.620 Michael Grant: It was probably about 22 or so. I was in New York, and I was in a seminar and we had come out. We're all going to dinner in this space next to us, and

00:32:20.840 --> 00:32:22.600 Michael Grant: there was only maybe 4

00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:31.160 Michael Grant: people that looked like me in that room. There was, you know, 300 people in there, and only 4 or so look like me, and there was a table of maybe 3 of them.

00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:49.029 Michael Grant: and then everybody else was everywhere, and I walked in, and I saw them, and I intentionally did not sit at that table. I went, and I sat with some other folks and we had dinner. We did the thing, and as I we were coming back I was holding the door open. One of those girls at that table, you know, just kind of said.

00:32:49.280 --> 00:32:55.529 Michael Grant: you know it really hurt me that you didn't sit with us, you know. I guess she's like II never feel attractive.

00:32:55.570 --> 00:33:00.250 Michael Grant: And you really that really hurt. And I was like.

00:33:01.800 --> 00:33:21.310 Michael Grant: I don't know to tell you, lady, you're like, instead of me being sensitive to it. I was just like, well, that's just the way it is like those that type of behavior. You know. I didn't recognize that in myself didn't even recognize it. It's very

00:33:21.310 --> 00:33:34.929 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: our racial identity development not only impacts us, it impacts other people. So now, this is something else that she's carrying in her Psyche, because what what one of my children said to me was

00:33:35.310 --> 00:33:38.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I especially as it came to dating in high school.

00:33:39.690 --> 00:33:50.149 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I'm not. She's like none of the white voice wanna date me, cause I'm not good enough for the white voice, and the black boys don't want me, either, because they want to date a white moment. Yeah.

00:33:50.280 --> 00:34:08.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so, and that's why. For me, it was really important for my kids to go to historically black colleges and universities, because the one thing is, they at least knew who they were culturally cause they grew up in my house and not know that plus we hung out, you know, with my family is predominantly

00:34:08.510 --> 00:34:22.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: black the church that we would go to I mean you got exposure to were are, since they still are and so what I hear you saying, though, is that

00:34:22.560 --> 00:34:24.429 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it? You know it's troubling

00:34:24.540 --> 00:34:31.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because we carry these things over into our adulthood. And

00:34:31.690 --> 00:34:47.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we marry. You know people from those races sometimes. And when I say we, I just mean us as a as a culture. Sometimes we think that to marry somebody who is also white because their privileges that come with that and a lot of it is unconscious

00:34:47.610 --> 00:34:57.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right? And tell me what happened then, you know, around 2,017, 2,018 that that's made you start waking up a little bit more, and then.

00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:01.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know if that leads into George Floyd's murder, you know

00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:04.620 Michael Grant: you can carry on through there. So what happens?

00:35:06.600 --> 00:35:17.060 Michael Grant: Oh, man, it's hard. II so II got invited to to to work at a location and I didn't want to work there, because

00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:31.129 Michael Grant: I could see in my experience the folks in the higher ups there catered to their people and their people. Only. So my people weren't really welcome there unless we were cleaning the bathrooms.

00:35:31.720 --> 00:35:42.239 Michael Grant: you know, but I got invited to work on a high executive level there because of my work ethic and what I was doing and my ability to work inside of that community right? But I didn't want to.

00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:53.119 Michael Grant: I really did not want to, and it took a a while for them to convince me that they were trying to make change at that facility. So I ended up going there. But while there

00:35:53.430 --> 00:35:55.050 Michael Grant: I

00:35:55.790 --> 00:36:22.779 Michael Grant: While I was working on that change and working on those things I saw. It's still happening to my people and the young people there, and I was just I I've got more and more frustrated daily that you know, I could see is very evident. I had to. I found I took it on myself to begin to be an example of what was possible for us right? So moved you to that place to do that. Was there a particular incident

00:36:23.060 --> 00:36:24.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that?

00:36:24.330 --> 00:36:25.450 Michael Grant: Well, yeah.

00:36:25.540 --> 00:36:36.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that that made you say, wait a minute. I don't want to go there and work there, because something had to shift you from being so comfortable with white people to your now noticing.

00:36:37.060 --> 00:36:48.570 Michael Grant: I remember that day. I even say it in the video. I remember I was fighting with back acne. And you know, a lot of young guys are fighting with it, and I literally yelled out loud, I hate my frickin skin

00:36:48.620 --> 00:36:50.740 Michael Grant: right. I remember yelling that out loud

00:36:50.850 --> 00:36:57.140 Michael Grant: and my mind to this weird, shifty thing where I realized I wasn't just talking about my acne.

00:36:57.210 --> 00:36:59.880 Michael Grant: And I was like.

00:37:01.590 --> 00:37:09.330 Michael Grant: Oh, you know I that this is deeper than this. I'm I'm avoiding my people.

00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.739 Michael Grant: I don't like my people.

00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:23.630 Michael Grant: and I can't change the fact that I'm not those people. I need to figure out what the hell I am here. and I. It was a very slow shift for me.

00:37:23.640 --> 00:37:40.920 Michael Grant: but then things would happen daily that would kind of, you know. Remind me that I am not white and as I grew, and growing that I started, I know what still was not advocating for my people at those points, but I realized that I wasn't white.

00:37:40.990 --> 00:37:54.689 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yeah, I just I just think that's heavy. And so I want my listeners just takes up. Take a breath. And I want Michael to just take a breath, too. III did the heaviness of of moment. That's pretty.

00:37:55.010 --> 00:38:00.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That's pretty deep to have that shift to say I'm not just talking about

00:38:00.790 --> 00:38:04.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: my back at me at this talking about the super thing.

00:38:05.300 --> 00:38:12.729 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and so psychologically. Then there's this shift, and then you gradually are getting to this place where you're going to fight for

00:38:12.740 --> 00:38:24.769 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: your people. So you take this job and you notice that they are not doing what they said they were doing. I mean they were. There was a lot of change going on. I saw it. But the people, the the

00:38:25.590 --> 00:38:32.889 Michael Grant: our people. We're still in those positions. So it was still happening, and there was only so much I could do.

00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:53.180 Michael Grant: And once you're in a certain community and you're acting a certain way for a certain number of years is not a lot of change. So I'm trying to be a leader and show them a different way. But they're still acting in the old way which is perpetuating the myth. Right? So I'm like guys, we can do better here. But at the same time I'm with you. I'm not

00:38:53.180 --> 00:39:12.199 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: them. I'm with you, but I am them I like you've got. It's a challenge. But but I wanna say this, though, and this is one of the hard lessons, I think, for people of color who, if we ends up in those spaces, one thing that's important to know is you can't change a system unless you're in a system.

00:39:12.530 --> 00:39:33.230 Michael Grant: right? And so sometimes we don't want to be in those places because we recognize that we don't want to deal with the micro regressions and the macro regressions that we receive. But if we want to be a change agent, we have to know how to navigate, have to one know how to navigate the spaces, but we have to be at the table.

00:39:33.320 --> 00:39:57.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and when we're at the table we have to use our voice, because to who much is given much is required. We cannot be at those tables and be silent. And so so I hope that for those of you who are listening on the show doesn't matter one what your race is. If you're at the table, you need to advocate for other folks, but particularly for people of color.

00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:00.519 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We have to use our voice.

00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:21.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we can't be afraid of the consequences of what's going to happen if we use our voice find someone who's ear, you can bend. Maybe there's a trusted person at your organization that you can talk to, and began to have this conversation so that you can have an ally. Tell me, what happened

00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:30.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in 2020, with your understanding of who you were with with with George Floyd. How did that impact you.

00:40:31.930 --> 00:40:36.890 Michael Grant: The wow! It's it's weird cause. Even when you said I got a little emotional. So

00:40:38.730 --> 00:40:44.150 Michael Grant: my initial, anytime a police officer shoots a black man. My first question is always, what did the black man do?

00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:52.979 Michael Grant: Right? That's where my, that's where my white brain goes right. It's like, let's call it 2 separate brands that's for my white brain goes. What do they do? What they do? Come on, let's be honest what they do.

00:40:53.150 --> 00:41:08.719 Michael Grant: And I wanna just say, I wanna say something for you as a black man, to ask that question. That really shows how much you thought you were white.

00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:14.119 Michael Grant: I watched the video, and I looked in that man's eyes as he was kneeling on joy, his neck.

00:41:19.080 --> 00:41:20.869 Michael Grant: It didn't matter what George did.

00:41:21.890 --> 00:41:23.610 Michael Grant: That man was murdering him.

00:41:25.010 --> 00:41:28.440 Michael Grant: He was murdered, all of us. I could see it in his face.

00:41:29.590 --> 00:41:32.569 Michael Grant: He was excited to be murdering us.

00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:35.549 Michael Grant: and I just thought of the millions of other men

00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:39.759 Michael Grant: that are just like him who are excited to be murdering us.

00:41:42.950 --> 00:41:47.709 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Michael, just just take a moment. It's okay. It's not okay that

00:41:47.790 --> 00:41:54.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: he was murdered. It's okay for you to experience the emotions of this moment, because

00:41:54.740 --> 00:41:57.579 Michael Grant: it is painful for us to

00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:16.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and it's painful even for those of us who don't watch because I don't watch those videos, because I already know the pain and trauma of it. And I always tell people what I ask people, why are you watching it? Right?

00:42:16.370 --> 00:42:19.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because there's nothing that would justify

00:42:20.060 --> 00:42:42.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you putting your neck, your your knee on a man's neck. There's nothing, really, when oftentimes when we're shot and killed we're shot and killed in our hands, or you know we we're shot and killed when you know why, II think about, was it Jacob Blake? shot 11 times, and this was after George Floyd.

00:42:42.160 --> 00:42:59.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know there's no justification for that. And the reason there's no justification, for it is because I have seen white people white, both men, boys, whatever they are in particular, running from the police officer.

00:42:59.930 --> 00:43:12.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and nothing ever happens, and if you can do that for someone who's in white skin, you can do it for someone who's in black and brown skin. So when people ask, what did they do?

00:43:13.390 --> 00:43:16.699 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Neat? What did the police officer do

00:43:17.050 --> 00:43:23.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that? They couldn't stop themselves, but see what the world thinks when they look at us

00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:24.689 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is that we're dangerous.

00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:43.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know. The the what's this name, Michael? He did. Fahrenheit. 9, 11. Michael Moore did a whole series on this after the Columbine shooting. So how much? When reporters

00:43:43.100 --> 00:43:44.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: talk about

00:43:44.730 --> 00:43:55.699 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: black people, a black man, they would always have them in handcuffs and suspect suspect suspect he paired it so much that once you have that pairing in your head.

00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:58.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's who you think

00:43:58.910 --> 00:44:00.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we are.

00:44:00.040 --> 00:44:12.139 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So that's why, when we pass a group of black young men walking down street. You lock your car. That's why, when a black man gets on the elevator you pull your purse a little bit closer, because you know

00:44:12.340 --> 00:44:37.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right to look at how much we've been socialized as one of the things I want my listeners to take from this. because you might be listening to this show today, and you've got a lot of questions, or you may be given a lot of pushback, but started taking stock just like Michael did. Michael, you started taking stock of how am I responding to my own people? Language that we use

00:44:37.690 --> 00:44:46.519 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: indicates how much internalized racism that that we have, you know, when we talk about the way our folks speak

00:44:47.480 --> 00:45:07.649 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or when we talk about. Now, now, there's the counter to that, because some people. Some of our folks will say we use sound white because we're using standard English. But in actuality we're not sounding way because we're we're the ones came up with language in the first place. But there's there's certain types of language I understand what what they're getting at, but we can't be

00:45:07.680 --> 00:45:10.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that way against each other right?

00:45:10.640 --> 00:45:16.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And we have to be able to embrace the differences

00:45:16.350 --> 00:45:28.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: between who we are, whether it's between urban and the suburban black. You know, the Socio, the low Socio economic black versus the middle versus the high. We have to show up

00:45:29.060 --> 00:45:41.109 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: as a unit in terms of our love and our support for one another. Not that we're supporting everything we do. Don't get me wrong. We have to say, why, why are they acting like that?

00:45:41.530 --> 00:45:53.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Why are they shooting one another up right? What are the circumstances. and why are the laws different for black people

00:45:54.020 --> 00:46:00.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who do the same thing that white people do? But their laws and their senses are different. We have to take a quick break.

00:46:00.640 --> 00:46:02.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and when we come back

00:46:03.640 --> 00:46:09.829 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I'd love for you to. II see that it's it's really hard to talk about.

00:46:10.180 --> 00:46:26.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What happened with George Floyd and so many others. But I do want to ask you whether anger was one of the things that came up for you. So we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. This is the dismantle racism show. I'm your host firm and Doctor Tlc.

00:48:34.990 --> 00:48:51.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with the dismantle racism show. Now, Michael already know, I'm gonna have to have you back, because I really wanted to also talk a little bit about what you're doing out in the world. But this conversation is so important because I believe

00:48:51.220 --> 00:48:53.880 the conversation that we're having

00:48:54.060 --> 00:49:02.839 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: will help shift the mindset of so many people out here. And to me, this is a part of the educating

00:49:03.030 --> 00:49:27.059 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that we're doing, being able to hear the stories of how racism impacts folks. So so I'm just saying, now I will want you to come back to talk about what you're doing, because your work now is actually working primarily with people of color. So you definitely made a big shift. But

00:49:27.080 --> 00:49:31.359 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: anger did that show up for you in that

00:49:31.810 --> 00:49:42.550 Michael Grant: I think there was a mix, or there were 2 major emotions that showed up for me that year. There was fear. The fear that some of this could happen to me and anybody in my family, including my young son.

00:49:42.590 --> 00:49:49.750 Michael Grant: and there was there was a lot of anger. I got very, very angry for a long time.

00:49:49.770 --> 00:49:55.340 Michael Grant: And II think I was. I was an angry young person, and some of that probably just rose back up.

00:49:55.350 --> 00:49:56.770 Michael Grant: you know, as an adult.

00:49:56.810 --> 00:49:59.059 Michael Grant: But you know, I had some.

00:49:59.740 --> 00:50:24.339 Michael Grant: some really angry thoughts, some of it. I had to kind of write down and express a little bit. And and I'm probably gonna be writing a book. Some of that anger. And I just let that come out. And it came out in songs and the music that I was writing the music style changed. Became a little bit more aggressive, and I was willing to talk about and say some things and songs that I certainly wouldn't have talked about

00:50:24.350 --> 00:50:27.500 Michael Grant: my Facebook became

00:50:27.520 --> 00:50:32.790 Michael Grant: decidedly different. Yeah.

00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:47.630 Michael Grant: if you look back at my Facebook from 2,018 to 2021, there is a major shift in my conversations and my willingness to challenge people on their racist behaviors. I would have never done that.

00:50:48.560 --> 00:50:56.419 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So was that therapeutic for you then to write the songs and to write the book to just get some of that anger out.

00:51:01.770 --> 00:51:04.090 Michael Grant: II don't like being angry.

00:51:04.340 --> 00:51:10.400 Michael Grant: so it so while it's therapeutic. I also felt like I was going down a dark tunnel.

00:51:10.490 --> 00:51:13.360 Michael Grant: and I didn't want to become the thing that I

00:51:13.710 --> 00:51:18.050 Michael Grant: regularly disliked, which was the angry black man.

00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:25.220 Michael Grant: Right? So my half of my brain, my white brain is you can't do that. Don't be that guy.

00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:36.729 Michael Grant: My black man is like Bro, it's time to come out this box. So I'm constantly fighting between these 2, and then I still have a corporate identity to maintain. Even to this day

00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:43.679 Michael Grant: I have a I'm a president and a founder of an organization. I had somebody say to me, Hey, be careful what you're right because you're gonna lose funders.

00:51:44.710 --> 00:51:46.499 Michael Grant: and my, my brain is like

00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:56.969 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's a part of the navigating whiteness, though. So let's figure out how. Listen it it it does a number.

00:51:57.390 --> 00:52:01.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know. And thankfully, this is where having mentors

00:52:02.010 --> 00:52:09.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: comes in handy, because I can remember, you know, sharing with a friend about something. You know. It's like, look.

00:52:09.990 --> 00:52:22.609 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I'm not doing blah blah blah blah right, you know, because you're firm about it, you know, and and I'm not kissing anybody's. But I'm not doing anything, and he's like, don't, hey? Don't think of a bit that way. But let me tell you something, Michael.

00:52:22.790 --> 00:52:24.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and to my listeners as well.

00:52:25.790 --> 00:52:31.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It really helps me when I read works like Frederick Douglass's work.

00:52:31.510 --> 00:52:43.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or go to a play like I remember going to a play where Frederick Douglass was having a conversation with John Brown, because they differed a little bit on their thinking about how to approach

00:52:43.350 --> 00:52:45.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: enslavement.

00:52:45.530 --> 00:52:51.649 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And you know my mother has a saying, when you got your hand in the lion's mouth, you have to move gently.

00:52:52.180 --> 00:52:57.280 Michael Grant: I have to figure out, and I say that right in my book

00:52:58.990 --> 00:53:02.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we have to figure out what is for the greater good.

00:53:02.730 --> 00:53:12.099 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And that's why. Sometimes we have to show up differently in those spaces. We can't say everything that we're thinking of saying.

00:53:13.470 --> 00:53:14.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but we can say enough

00:53:15.390 --> 00:53:29.049 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in terms of it's it's what it's how we say, what we need to say as well, because I speak up and speak out all the time. But I also don't say every single thing that I'm thinking, because this is important for us to listen

00:53:29.090 --> 00:53:31.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to listen to what the other person

00:53:31.200 --> 00:53:37.449 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is saying. Right, listen to what they're saying, and be able to to give back to them.

00:53:37.740 --> 00:53:42.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know what they're saying. So so tell me. I know we only have just a few more minutes.

00:53:43.250 --> 00:54:06.720 Michael Grant: first and foremost, because I don't want to run out of time with this. Tell people how they can get in touch with you to learn more about you. Yeah, oh, email is always great. You can send an email to Hello at Givemusicus. That's our organization. Yeah, email is probably the best thing to do. You could also check out our Facebook. We are give music Inc. On Facebook

00:54:06.750 --> 00:54:09.640 Michael Grant: and Instagram. You can check us out and what we're doing.

00:54:10.270 --> 00:54:18.090 Michael Grant: It's probably the best way II get my cell phone. But I don't know that could get weird

00:54:18.120 --> 00:54:25.049 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the the wrong make. People might start calling you, too. Oh, Michael, listen. We we

00:54:25.110 --> 00:54:39.389 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: do need to have you back because I wanna talk about give music and a a bit on our next time together. Because give music is your nonprofit organization, where you're actually going into adjudicated systems

00:54:39.390 --> 00:55:01.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: teaching young folks how to engage in in technology, and so they'll have the skill when they come out. That's phenomenal. And the reason why that this is also very powerful in your story is because who's in prison? Who's in the lockup? We are locked up much more often. And so you found a way to not to to channel

00:55:01.640 --> 00:55:10.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: your own work to say I am an advocate now. It has been a delight to have you on the show. I'm gonna ask you

00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:26.439 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: if you would give us just some words of inspiration before we go to have any final thoughts. If if if if not I got you, but just wanted to know if you had any final thoughts, cause we got it.

00:55:26.550 --> 00:55:47.860 Michael Grant: Sheesh! I wasn't ready. You did check off that. Yes, I'd like to do that. But I'm sorry. There's this particular quote from man versus Superman that I really love and I was hope II didn't pull it up. I should have had it up and ready to go. But in this quote it it says.

00:55:48.500 --> 00:55:53.219 Michael Grant: but but where are you? Oh, no, I don't see it.

00:55:53.870 --> 00:56:00.280 Michael Grant: Basically, this is the true joy in life doing a thing that you are that you feel, are you? Are you?

00:56:01.490 --> 00:56:08.510 Michael Grant: Oh, I want to use the right words. We'll save it for next time. Yes.

00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:21.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: thank you so much for being on the show. It has been a delight. Thank you to my listeners for being on the show today. May you tap into that sacred part of you that allows you to make choices to manifest your great business.

00:56:22.470 --> 00:56:33.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: make it a priority to share love, hope, peace, and compassion. Today be well, be safe, be encouraged until next time. Bye, for now

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