Thursdays 11:00am - 12:00pm (EDT)
Episode title: Moving From Not Racist to Anti-Racist
WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?
The audience will discover why not being a racist is not enough to dismantle racism.
EPISODE SUMMARY:
Have you ever heard or made the statement "I'm not a racist?" Often this statement is made when one feels that they have to prove that they "accept everyone" or that they "don't see color." It's not enough to make such a statement, and some would argue that such a statement actually perpetuates racism. For, it stops one from looking inward and closely examining their own thoughts and deeply held beliefs. It also stops one from actively engaging in the process of dismantling racism.
Join Rev. Dr. TLC as she sits down with her guest. Lesley Michaels to discuss the importance of moving from "I'm not a racist." to becoming an antiracist. Despite Lesley's long history of disrupting the status quo, she realized that her personal beliefs alone are not enough to disrupt racism. There is more that she can do to actively disrupt racism. Listen in as she discusses her process of becoming an anti-racist.
Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here.
00:00:47.430 --> 00:01:06.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hello, and welcome to the dismantle Racism show. I'm your host, the Reverend Dr. Tlc. The goal of the show is to help you to uncover, eradicate and to dismantle racism. I am so delighted that you are with me today, and as always I invite you, if you would.
00:01:07.020 --> 00:01:27.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to be sure that you leave a comment, ask your questions, tell us what you are interested in. You can do that by going to Facebook. If you're on Facebook, live and just making your comments there, or you can reach out@sacredintelligence.com contact me through the website and let me know what you think about
00:01:27.330 --> 00:01:28.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the show.
00:01:28.610 --> 00:01:35.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I also want to invite you, if you have not to please pick up a copy of my book, dismantling racism.
00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:50.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: healing separation from the inside out. Because if we are going to walk this journey of advocating for racial equity, we have to know more about ourselves, and what we need to do to heal racism.
00:01:51.020 --> 00:02:07.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You'll learn, as we're talking today, that it's not enough to say that i'm not a racist. We actually have to do the work that it takes in order to be an advocate for those who look differently from us. Those who show up differently in the world those who love differently
00:02:07.110 --> 00:02:11.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: than we do. Whatever differences we have. If we want to advocate.
00:02:12.450 --> 00:02:24.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we have to do our own work. I also want to invite you, if you would, to make sure that you go to Itunes Amazon music, Google, play any of those places
00:02:24.650 --> 00:02:27.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and listen to the meditations that accompany the book.
00:02:28.290 --> 00:02:33.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As you know, we always start out the show with me doing a meditation, and that's purposeful.
00:02:34.200 --> 00:02:52.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It's purposeful, because it helps both me and my guests and you to prepare for the dynamic conversation that we're going to have puts us in the right place mentally puts us in the right place emotionally and of course spiritually. For me it grounds us for the conversation.
00:02:53.270 --> 00:02:57.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: All too often people want to have conversations about race.
00:02:57.450 --> 00:03:13.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and do not understand the emotional toll it will take on you and the other person do not put. They. We often do not prepare ourselves in terms of just grounding us, so that we don't respond.
00:03:13.220 --> 00:03:14.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or we at
00:03:15.660 --> 00:03:21.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: put it that way, so that we are not reactive, that we learn to respond in the conversation.
00:03:22.510 --> 00:03:27.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So there's a reason that I offer these meditations, and I want to invite you
00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:32.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to go and take a listen to those meditations. They accompany the book.
00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:48.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but they're also done in a way to I've I've added music to them. I've added additional words to them, so it's more than just what's in the book. It's great for you to read them, and it's also great for you to experience them. So please do
00:03:48.320 --> 00:03:56.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: make sure that you go and just take a listen to one to all of those meditations. The meditations and the book
00:03:56.750 --> 00:04:09.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: are designed to give you the fortitude you need to continue this journey, because it is not easy to do the work of dismantling race system. So i'm giving you resources to help ground you in that.
00:04:09.340 --> 00:04:22.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So now I don't want to delay any further. I want to do what we always do to the show, as I just said, is, I want to meditate with you, so I want to invite you if you would simply close your eyes. If you can.
00:04:22.230 --> 00:04:29.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and ground yourself. center yourself and begin to pay attention to your breath.
00:04:31.300 --> 00:04:37.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: just breathe in and out. and i'd like you to take in some deep.
00:04:37.500 --> 00:04:39.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: long breaths
00:04:40.340 --> 00:04:41.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and hold them.
00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:44.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: then release that
00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:51.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so just continue to breathe in and out.
00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:56.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and connecting your breath with who you are.
00:04:58.110 --> 00:05:00.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who you were born to be.
00:05:01.640 --> 00:05:08.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting your breath with your divine wisdom in your sacred source.
00:05:10.200 --> 00:05:16.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And as you're breathing in and out, recognizing the life that is in you.
00:05:17.660 --> 00:05:19.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Ask yourself.
00:05:19.990 --> 00:05:22.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Are you doing the work
00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:25.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that your soul calls you to?
00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:32.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Are you doing the work that your soul must have.
00:05:34.330 --> 00:05:36.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Are you an alignment
00:05:37.650 --> 00:05:41.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with your desires, your hearts desires?
00:05:44.820 --> 00:05:47.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So just take that in just for a second.
00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and as you're meditating on those questions.
00:05:57.790 --> 00:05:59.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Ask yourself.
00:06:01.280 --> 00:06:03.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Who do you want to be
00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:07.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: at this point in time in history.
00:06:08.630 --> 00:06:12.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: particularly as it relates to advocating
00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:16.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for racism or against racism? Excuse me
00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:19.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: advocating for racial justice.
00:06:21.890 --> 00:06:23.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Who do you want to be?
00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:28.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what do you need to do
00:06:28.840 --> 00:06:32.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to become the person that you want to become?
00:06:36.470 --> 00:06:39.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just breathe in and out.
00:06:41.820 --> 00:06:45.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with your sacred intelligence.
00:06:46.890 --> 00:06:54.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which is that part of you that helps you to manifest your greatness while helping others to do the same.
00:06:56.210 --> 00:07:05.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Your sacred intelligence is that divine part of you that helps you to make intelligent choices.
00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:10.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Your breath connects you with your sacred intelligence.
00:07:12.320 --> 00:07:15.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So just breathe in and out.
00:07:16.610 --> 00:07:21.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and let that settle into your bones to your essence.
00:07:26.020 --> 00:07:32.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Now, as you breathe in and out. give gratitude for the power that lies within you.
00:07:35.290 --> 00:07:38.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: knowing that you can change the status quo.
00:07:42.210 --> 00:07:44.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: knowing that what you do matters.
00:07:47.490 --> 00:07:53.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and knowing that the power of one contributes to the power of community.
00:07:56.050 --> 00:07:58.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Now take another deep breath in.
00:07:59.900 --> 00:08:08.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: sign it out. and give gratitude for this moment. and we say, and so it is.
00:08:09.250 --> 00:08:10.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I say.
00:08:10.990 --> 00:08:12.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and on that
00:08:16.290 --> 00:08:20.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, today, on our show we are going to be talking about.
00:08:20.750 --> 00:08:39.159 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What does it mean to be an anti racist? And you've heard me have conversation on the show before about that term anti-racist. Some people like it. Some people don't. Some people will often say, Well, why don't, we talk about what we're for
00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: rather than what we are a guest.
00:08:41.330 --> 00:08:55.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So there's a lot of debate around that, because, if you remember several shows back, I had a woman, a white woman in particular, who was on the show, who's been doing this work for years since the sixties or seventies.
00:08:55.530 --> 00:09:04.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and her response was, Well, the people who don't want you to use that one are usually white people, and she said, and it's because
00:09:04.070 --> 00:09:08.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we don't want to confront our own racism.
00:09:09.490 --> 00:09:30.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we are fighting against racism for sure, and we can do both. We can fight against it and say what it is that we want. So on the show. Today we're talking about? What does it take to become an anti-racist? And all too often I hear people say, i'm not a racist.
00:09:30.620 --> 00:09:34.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I wonder if people really know what is a racist.
00:09:34.870 --> 00:09:41.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So in my book, dismantling racism, healing separation from the inside out, I actually give a term
00:09:42.010 --> 00:09:45.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for both race and racism. But i'll share with you
00:09:45.800 --> 00:09:49.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what racism means when I speak of it.
00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:58.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Ideas, beliefs, behaviors, systems, or practices, that intentionally
00:09:59.230 --> 00:10:01.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or unintentionally
00:10:01.790 --> 00:10:06.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: view people of color as inferior to white people.
00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:10.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because the thing about racism
00:10:10.680 --> 00:10:15.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is that it does not require intent or malice.
00:10:16.030 --> 00:10:22.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So the same people who will say, i'm not a racist might make a statement like
00:10:22.920 --> 00:10:36.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I don't understand why all those kids of color are those black kids got accepted to college. But my daughter didn't. That actually happens to me. One day a white woman actually said those words to me.
00:10:36.930 --> 00:10:51.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What she was saying after I said to myself, does she realize she's talking to a black person. What she was actually saying is, they aren't good enough to get in. They let them in because of affirmative action.
00:10:51.800 --> 00:10:54.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: not because they were smart enough to.
00:10:55.110 --> 00:11:00.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Or when folks are surprised that a black person has a Phd.
00:11:01.880 --> 00:11:03.420 Or speaks well
00:11:04.250 --> 00:11:09.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: those things, If you were to ask them, i'm not a racist. Those are unintentional things.
00:11:10.330 --> 00:11:13.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and they are also micro aggressions
00:11:14.070 --> 00:11:17.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that cut like a knife when people say those things.
00:11:18.650 --> 00:11:23.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and they also perpetuate racism. even though it's unintentional.
00:11:24.690 --> 00:11:34.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So there is work for us to do. Which is why I say healing separation from the inside out, because the work starts with us.
00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:44.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, my guest today. Leslie Michaels is going to discuss. What does it mean? Moving from? I'm not a racist to become an anti-racist. She'll share
00:11:44.550 --> 00:11:47.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: a bit about her own story.
00:11:47.880 --> 00:11:55.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and she'll also share what she's learned over time about doing the work and what it takes.
00:11:56.040 --> 00:12:08.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what brings her to this place the women she's encountered along the way. But let me tell you a little bit about Leslie. Leslie says that she was born a feminist.
00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:18.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She was later one of the first women to break through the glass ceiling of the old boy Industry of oil and glass.
00:12:18.250 --> 00:12:30.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Leslie's body of unique life experiences have provided her with a first-hand understanding of the daily struggles that are faced by women of every race, culture, and sexual orientation.
00:12:31.530 --> 00:12:42.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Our best selling book on the shoulders of mighty women is a tribute to the power and grace of those who came before, and the ones who will follow
00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:46.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the warriors. And the following
00:12:47.340 --> 00:12:56.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Leslie developed the shattering glass ceiling training program for executive women to up level their comfort and advocating for their value
00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:07.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: presented through both groups and bespoke training programs. The program is rooted in actionable practices with proven results.
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:28.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Leslie hosts the women we should know Podcast and I'm. So delighted I was a guest on her show and it features women who are leading the way in diversity, equity, and inclusion, and belonging the pursuit of gender equity, women's, financial empowerment, and female social and political sovereignty.
00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:33.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Leslie is out there doing the work, and the only way
00:13:33.670 --> 00:13:35.510 the Leslie to do the work
00:13:36.130 --> 00:13:38.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: she had to do the work on herself.
00:13:38.550 --> 00:13:47.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I want to welcome to the show really quickly before our break. I want to say to you, Leslie, Welcome, welcome, welcome! So happy You're here with us today.
00:13:50.380 --> 00:13:58.290 Lesley Michaels: Thank you so much, Carolyn. It is an honor to be able to be here. I am truly appreciative of the invitation.
00:13:58.540 --> 00:14:12.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, we've got a lot to get into Leslie, and so the tables are turned. I was on your your podcast, and now I get to share all about you with my audience, and you get to help us.
00:14:13.660 --> 00:14:24.290 Lesley Michaels: Not just an unraveling your journey, but to be able to talk about. How do we get past that? I'm not a racist statement. How do we move beyond trying to prove?
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:39.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because that's really when people say i'm not a racist, they're really trying to prove to somebody else if they're not a racist. So we are going to be right back with the dismantled racism. Show with my guest, Leslie Michaels, i'm your host, the Reverend Dr. Tlc. Will be right back.
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00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:16.250 Christian.
00:16:16.810 --> 00:16:17.920 www.TalkRadio.nyc: the
00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:23.600 you're listening to talk radio, Nyc, uplift, educate in power
00:16:24.760 --> 00:16:25.950 The
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00:16:53.760 --> 00:17:06.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with the Dismantle Racism Show my guest today is Leslie Michaels and Leslie. I want to start my first question. You know, when I read your bio, this is you were born a feminist.
00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:12.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Tell us a little bit about what you mean by you were born a feminist.
00:17:13.130 --> 00:17:15.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So you have to unmute yourself, please for it.
00:17:18.300 --> 00:17:21.910 Lesley Michaels: Thank you, for the prompt should have done that.
00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:31.830 Lesley Michaels: My paternal grandmother was a suffragette. When she was 13 her family was
00:17:31.990 --> 00:17:36.860 Lesley Michaels: all about the fact that she was becoming an old maid, because, you know, back in the day
00:17:37.450 --> 00:17:39.750 Lesley Michaels: Well, she had no desire to be a farm wife.
00:17:40.050 --> 00:17:46.960 Lesley Michaels: So there was this young Jewish boy who'd been coming around wanting to court her.
00:17:47.110 --> 00:17:51.780 Lesley Michaels: but her family wasn't going to have that, either. No Jewish boy. Well.
00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:58.570 Lesley Michaels: she convinced him, because she was the dynamic woman. I'm sure, even at 13,
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:00.640 to elope to another state.
00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:01.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.
00:18:02.170 --> 00:18:11.560 Lesley Michaels: And so a few children later, building friendships, etc., it turned out that the woman who had become her best friend
00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:21.290 Lesley Michaels: was the daughter of the bank owner, because, you know, this is back in the days when banks were on by human beings. What a radical concept! And so
00:18:21.370 --> 00:18:33.000 Lesley Michaels: her friend became her champion. and my grandmother owned her own business and her own home in the 1,900 fortys. Well, let's skip forward a whole lot.
00:18:33.070 --> 00:18:45.960 Lesley Michaels: and by the time I came around and was in my young adulthood old enough to pay attention. it was clear to me that she always had these businessmen coming around having conversations.
00:18:46.310 --> 00:18:52.910 Lesley Michaels: It was years after I had noticed that that I found out that the reason they were coming around.
00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:59.600 Lesley Michaels: I just thought they were her friends. No, they were her friends, but these were some of the more prominent
00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:08.470 Lesley Michaels: businessmen in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and they were coming to her for business council, and so
00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:13.070 Lesley Michaels: I started out there. Then i'm an old hippie
00:19:13.090 --> 00:19:26.430 Lesley Michaels: I mean, that's just what it is. I've been around the sun a few times, so when 1,970 came about. I did what all young Hippies did. I was young Hippie. Then I stuck out my thumb, and I hitchhiked to New York
00:19:26.510 --> 00:19:32.920 Lesley Michaels: because there was this thing called the Era and Women's Liberation Movement.
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.190 Lesley Michaels: and I wanted to know what that was about.
00:19:37.760 --> 00:19:43.010 Lesley Michaels: and that. interestingly, was
00:19:43.050 --> 00:19:50.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: my first introduction to racism, because it didn't exist in my grandparents home.
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.310 Lesley Michaels: and I found
00:19:54.740 --> 00:20:04.570 Lesley Michaels: myself completely confused by the Of course we had Angela Davis, and she was prominent, and she was just amazing. Let me say I got to hear her speak many times.
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:10.020 Lesley Michaels: but for the whole the
00:20:10.150 --> 00:20:22.860 Lesley Michaels: white women were excluding the black women, and they were also excluding the Lesbian community. And so that put me into the frame of an entirely different
00:20:22.990 --> 00:20:29.350 Lesley Michaels: life path of research, and coming to understand why
00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:36.020 Lesley Michaels: that was my so Why did not even compute with me? They are women.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:43.510 Lesley Michaels: Why are we not all bonded? They want to. They're out here. They've been doing it longer than we have.
00:20:43.820 --> 00:20:45.530 Lesley Michaels: Yeah. how
00:20:45.610 --> 00:20:59.310 Lesley Michaels: how can we possibly exclude these women who taught us how to stand up? So so if we can just my journey on that. If we could pause on that for a moment, because I think
00:20:59.800 --> 00:21:03.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: first let me just say as a mother, i'd be horrified if my daughters
00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:15.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: call hitchhike anywhere today, like like the things that we know now, of course, part of that has to do with being a woman, and then, of course, as a black woman definitely would be.
00:21:15.550 --> 00:21:18.420 I want to talk about this era and
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:36.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: feminism because that's actually still problematic. Today there's this tension between white women, white feminist in particular, and black women, because there's still this this idea that we need to just be fighting for women's, rights.
00:21:36.530 --> 00:21:55.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and folks not understand that. Wait a minute. There's women's rights. And then there's being a black woman, and when I walk into a space Yes, I am I identify as a woman fully, but I walk in my understanding who people perceive me as racially.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:56.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: even though it's a social construct.
00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:14.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I identify with my blackness I am when i'm advocating for something. It's my blackness that's going to take the forefront, because I know that that's what people are responding to. And so when we look at people like Susan, Susan B. Anthony.
00:22:14.580 --> 00:22:30.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: even the grim Key sisters who I love, who were abolitionists, you know there's still something about black women in the way we were treated. So there's a term that I believe Alice Walker
00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:31.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: coined.
00:22:31.580 --> 00:22:35.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which is called womanist. So for black women.
00:22:36.350 --> 00:22:45.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I often refer to myself as a womanist as opposed to a feminist, and then I have to explain to folks that is a black.
00:22:46.300 --> 00:22:52.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: a black feminist to an extent. But here's the expansion for womanist.
00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:08.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are concerned about all beings and the elevation of all beings who are pressed, and so I think that that's part of the defining difference. And of course, you know, we do focus on
00:23:08.540 --> 00:23:20.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: women of color. But you know, so as you're recognizing this. tell us a little bit about your own
00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:32.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: awakening. That is not enough to say i'm not a racist, but to really. you know, talk about what does it mean for you first to be an anti
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: races, and then what woke you up
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:41.050 Lesley Michaels: to that? They, those may be the same question. I'm not sure but talking about that.
00:23:41.510 --> 00:23:55.190 Lesley Michaels: Well. I was struck with this question of why, and it has driven my entire life since that time. And so I started asking why I started asking what the difference was
00:23:55.410 --> 00:24:00.310 Lesley Michaels: I started speaking to black women about.
00:24:01.360 --> 00:24:07.780 Lesley Michaels: I don't understand this. And can you tell me how that makes you feel? And I let me say, Terralyn.
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:10.810 Lesley Michaels: I ask those questions really
00:24:10.900 --> 00:24:19.020 Lesley Michaels: badly in the beginning, and this is the thing that white women have to become courageous enough to do
00:24:19.050 --> 00:24:22.550 is to ask those questions, Put your foot in it.
00:24:22.790 --> 00:24:33.670 Lesley Michaels: get the snap back, and to be able to sit there and hear the snap back and not be reactive to it.
00:24:33.910 --> 00:24:52.190 Lesley Michaels: Did I always do that right? Not in the beginning. No. Did you? Could you give us an example? What! What! What does a bad way that you might have asked if you can remember, and got a snap back. Oh, gosh! I don't even think of. Let me see if I can even remember when nothing's coming to mind.
00:24:56.900 --> 00:25:00.750 Lesley Michaels: I might have said something along the lines of
00:25:04.010 --> 00:25:17.280 Lesley Michaels: Well, I don't understand why we can't all be. I'll I'll just be united. We're all in the same fight, and then I would get a step back about. Oh, no, wait a minute. and then I would have an a very
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:20.580 Lesley Michaels: assertive let's say
00:25:20.660 --> 00:25:23.380 delivery on how
00:25:23.470 --> 00:25:26.450 Lesley Michaels: black women had started despite
00:25:26.950 --> 00:25:41.770 Lesley Michaels: at the time of slavery. Then they propelled the civil rights movement, and all of this, and I came through that to understand the length, to the, to to the degree that a white woman can.
00:25:41.810 --> 00:25:55.270 Lesley Michaels: The length and the depth of the breadth of their struggle that have it on going along before the Era came about, and I thank you for sharing that because not a lot of people
00:25:55.280 --> 00:26:13.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: know that and are aware of that, because all too often what is happened historically is that there are things that black folks started. but we may not have had the agency. And so a white person came along.
00:26:13.780 --> 00:26:20.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: took the idea and ran with it. So I appreciate you talking about that, you know
00:26:22.540 --> 00:26:26.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you said something really interesting. and you talked about
00:26:28.430 --> 00:26:30.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: like when you get the snap back.
00:26:31.010 --> 00:26:33.610 Lesley Michaels: What do you do with that?
00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:52.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I know that you and I have talked about people making a misstep Sometimes people want to say, Well, i'm not doing this anymore, and I I hear it often, and you tell me that you have heard it often because people fear the misstep. So what did you do? What was
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:55.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: helpful for you to say? Okay.
00:26:56.130 --> 00:27:00.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I'm going to hear what they're saying. I'm not going to
00:27:00.620 --> 00:27:01.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it.
00:27:01.790 --> 00:27:09.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Get my ego involved, or whatever. What was the talk that you did to help yourself move to the next level.
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:22.440 Lesley Michaels: It was a process of getting the snap back, sometimes hearing. But in those early days all too frequently getting defensive.
00:27:25.520 --> 00:27:31.550 Lesley Michaels: seeing that relationship separate until relationships separate.
00:27:31.610 --> 00:27:34.640 understanding that that was a relationship that
00:27:34.830 --> 00:27:41.020 Lesley Michaels: I really wanted. I wanted to foster that, and sitting and being
00:27:41.140 --> 00:27:43.790 Lesley Michaels: brutally honest with myself about
00:27:45.050 --> 00:27:47.910 Lesley Michaels: What did you contribute to the breakdown?
00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:49.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.
00:27:49.990 --> 00:27:57.460 Lesley Michaels: And being able. And this is another hard part for a lot of white women I've had these conversations
00:27:57.530 --> 00:28:03.880 Lesley Michaels: being able to go back and say, You know I set with that I was. I could not have been more wrong.
00:28:06.380 --> 00:28:21.620 Lesley Michaels: I I apologize. That's all I have is an apology. And then that relationship still not continuing and having to come to the understanding that just because I came to a realization
00:28:22.080 --> 00:28:31.160 Lesley Michaels: and offered an apology that did not mean that I had to be embraced. That person was not obliged
00:28:31.670 --> 00:28:47.030 Lesley Michaels: to embrace me; they weren't even obliged to hear me more often than not they would hear me, even if the relationship didn't continue. And I learned several years later
00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:52.000 Lesley Michaels: from a black woman who to this day, as a friend of mine
00:28:54.040 --> 00:29:00.060 Lesley Michaels: when she came back around we happen to be. It was just sure.
00:29:00.190 --> 00:29:10.170 Lesley Michaels: the universe putting us in the same place at the same time. and she sat down, and we we started a conversation, and as it evolved.
00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:22.910 Lesley Michaels: I I said. I really miss the relationship that I had hoped would build, and she said, we can start now. Hmm, beautiful. I've watched you.
00:29:25.760 --> 00:29:31.540 Lesley Michaels: and I know from what you've done and what I've seen that those were not words
00:29:32.900 --> 00:29:40.500 Lesley Michaels: that that was your heart speaking, and so that gave us room to
00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:52.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to build a relationship. Now, Leslie, you you you said about 4 or 5 things, and they're like one. I think it's really important for our audience to take away relationship.
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:56.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You had the desire to build a
00:29:56.970 --> 00:30:09.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: authentic relationship, because sometimes people will say, oh, you're my friend, You're my whatever, and and we're not, you know, just like in in a time to kill, he said. We not freeze. J.
00:30:09.690 --> 00:30:21.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Exactly. We're hanging out that we're not friends, because what do you know about me? Have I let you in on the intimate stuff? Right? So you talked about the importance of relationship. And what you said
00:30:22.170 --> 00:30:28.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you also, which I think is really really important to know is your apology.
00:30:28.490 --> 00:30:31.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You do for you
00:30:32.230 --> 00:30:34.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and for your growth.
00:30:34.150 --> 00:30:49.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: not for the other person. Be willing to accept whatever that other person throws out there, too. I think that is so fantastic. I mean that's like a kernel for people to make sure that they are taking away from Today's show. It's like
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:52.370 Lesley Michaels: the other person doesn't owe you anything
00:30:52.540 --> 00:31:05.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but your job, if you want to heal from the inside out, is to do the work that you have to do, and still say, Where can I learn and grow from this situation. And then
00:31:05.420 --> 00:31:10.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the third thing I want to say there was more stuff in there. But i'm gonna say one more thing before we go to pray
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when she said to you. I've watched you. and it wasn't just words
00:31:19.790 --> 00:31:21.390 Lesley Michaels: like I feel that
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:27.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I feel that actually I feel that in my throat right now. I'm for clip, just remembering that moment
00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:30.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because
00:31:30.850 --> 00:31:36.200 Lesley Michaels: basically you had to show her she didn't ask you to. No.
00:31:36.910 --> 00:31:39.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but you had to show her that you were authentic.
00:31:39.990 --> 00:31:44.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because all too often people can utter an apology.
00:31:45.300 --> 00:31:47.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and it could still be surface
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:56.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: if you had gotten caught up in your feelings that she rejected you, and you weren't going to try anymore. Guess what
00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:09.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you would approve of whatever she already thought about you, even unintentionally. So right there we could like in the show right there, because you already tried to like like the lessons, the lessons, the lessons are so
00:32:09.110 --> 00:32:21.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: powerful about that exchange. But we do want to hear more from you. So we're going to take a quick break and come back with Leslie Michael to continue talking about what it means to be an anti racist. We'll be right back.
00:32:23.300 --> 00:32:37.670 Are you passionate about the conversation around racism? Hi! I'm Reverend Dr. Tlc. Host of the disnatural racism show which airs every Thursday at 11 a. M. Eastern on talk radio, dot Nyc
00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:50.210 join me and my amazing guest as we discuss ways to uncover, dismantle and eradicate racism. That's Thursdays. At 110'clock a. M. On talk, radio and Nyc.
00:32:52.820 --> 00:33:20.620 www.TalkRadio.nyc: In that close to moment world you may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life. Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness? I'm. Frank R. Harrison host of Frank about health, and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you. Tune in everything at 5 P. M. On talk, radio and Nyc. And I will be frank about help to advocate for all of us.
00:33:25.900 --> 00:33:50.020 Hey, everybody! It's Tommy D, the nonprofit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on top radio and Nyc, I hosted program for Lambda Kin focused nonprofits in cocktails each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen each week at 10 a. M. Eastern standard time until 11 a. M. Is from standing time right here on talk radio, dot Nyc.
00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:01.490 You're listening to talk radio and Yc. At Ww: talk radio and livec now broadcasting 24 hours a day.
00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:02.960 the
00:34:08.310 --> 00:34:08.920 A
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:12.969 for me.
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:29.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We're back with my guest today. Leslie, Michaels and Leslie before the break. You were sharing about
00:34:29.489 --> 00:34:45.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: how you came to realize that it was not enough to say, i'm not a racist, and started the journey to becoming an anti racist, and just for review of folks just really talking about some of the deeper conversations that you had to have
00:34:45.250 --> 00:34:58.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with black women. So you record that first of all you recognize that there were some things that were different for you as a white woman and for black women, and then began to have the conversations.
00:34:58.090 --> 00:35:09.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and then had to sit in the missteps. Talk to us a little bit more about your journey with becoming an anti-racist. And what were some of the things the lessons you had to learn along the way?
00:35:10.990 --> 00:35:21.890 Lesley Michaels: Well, using that earlier conversation as a springboard 2 things that could be of real value to any of your white women Listeners is number one.
00:35:22.460 --> 00:35:24.980 Lesley Michaels: When my friend said to me, I've watched you.
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:31.830 Lesley Michaels: I was surprised because nothing I had done was for her, or to impress her.
00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:39.340 Lesley Michaels: Everything I had done was to find a place in me where I was
00:35:39.890 --> 00:35:56.280 Lesley Michaels: at peace with the fact that I was going to keep kicking the bucket, maybe for the rest of my life, because let's face it When you're born looking like me, you are inherently privileged. I didn't ask for it. It just came.
00:35:57.510 --> 00:36:00.460 Lesley Michaels: and the other thing was that
00:36:01.720 --> 00:36:06.170 Lesley Michaels: when she came back and shared with me.
00:36:06.740 --> 00:36:11.390 Lesley Michaels: I understood at that moment
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:18.070 Lesley Michaels: the level of commitment that I had.
00:36:18.370 --> 00:36:23.800 Lesley Michaels: It's interesting. I had had a commitment, and I had been very active.
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:28.650 Lesley Michaels: and still making a lot of missteps. I still do
00:36:29.640 --> 00:36:33.370 Lesley Michaels: at that point when she said that to me I realized
00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:45.750 Lesley Michaels: this is part of my soul. This is part of my being. This is part of my reason that i'm on this planet is to understand.
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:54.610 Lesley Michaels: not to impress upon other people, but to understand for my own being. And then, as i'm understanding, if I share it
00:36:54.990 --> 00:37:00.310 Lesley Michaels: and it impacts someone else, another white woman all the better.
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm. But
00:37:03.030 --> 00:37:13.190 Lesley Michaels: I know that sounds selfish, and there is a level of that I I I suspect. But but there's also a level where
00:37:14.260 --> 00:37:19.410 Lesley Michaels: it's not selfish, because the more I learn. the less
00:37:19.610 --> 00:37:29.230 Lesley Michaels: I the less unconscious bias I have, I can lovingly and gracefully impact
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:35.550 Lesley Michaels: the women, the black women, the women of color that I engage with. And then I get to have these
00:37:35.850 --> 00:37:50.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: additional beautiful relationships. Well, so, Leslie, in my book I talk about having a selfish mindset, which is about examining who we are. So, for where I sit is absolutely great, and a benefit is that you do get to have black, brown.
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:56.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: white for you to get to have a diverse group of friends. Because imagine a world of saying this.
00:37:56.970 --> 00:37:59.910 Lesley Michaels: My, that's boring, is it that
00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:05.030 Lesley Michaels: I know one of the things I say, Caroline, to to white women often, and like
00:38:06.250 --> 00:38:14.090 Lesley Michaels: tilt their head. You know how like a dog when when they're puzzled. They're kind of a little puppy.
00:38:15.050 --> 00:38:16.680 Lesley Michaels: and I say to them.
00:38:18.500 --> 00:38:20.760 Lesley Michaels: you cannot know what you are giving up.
00:38:20.850 --> 00:38:26.540 Lesley Michaels: Hmm. Because, quite frankly, we, as white people, we don't have culture.
00:38:26.890 --> 00:38:29.920 Lesley Michaels: We have no culture.
00:38:31.250 --> 00:38:38.140 Lesley Michaels: We have directives that are often to minimize other people. But we don't have an actual culture, and
00:38:38.210 --> 00:38:46.650 Lesley Michaels: my life is rich because I have black friends and native American friends and Latinics, and on and on and on.
00:38:46.680 --> 00:38:54.750 Lesley Michaels: and I get invited to. I get invited to break bread with all of them in the different ways. They break bread.
00:38:54.770 --> 00:39:02.530 Lesley Michaels: and my life is richer from all I learn from their culture that they are so generous to share with me.
00:39:02.600 --> 00:39:11.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It. It absolutely is amazing when we open ourselves up to experience people. And
00:39:12.220 --> 00:39:18.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I've heard that said what? Even in my teaching the other white people say, Well, we we don't actually even have a culture.
00:39:18.970 --> 00:39:37.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so when I think about even what I learned from going to other cultures, even across, you know, like the African and diaspora like, this is like so so amazing. Well, actually, one of the things I want to point out here that I think is crucial, for our our listeners
00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:40.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is often, when we think about racial equity.
00:39:40.740 --> 00:39:56.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I think that many people think, if they are going to be an advocate for racial justice, they have to be out in the street, or they have to be doing something every day to specifically focus on it. What I have seen with your work.
00:39:57.010 --> 00:40:02.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and because you were born a feminist, as you say. Actually, you were born a disruptor.
00:40:02.570 --> 00:40:08.470 Lesley Michaels: I was born a disruptor because you're you're disrupting more than just feminism in the one thing, too.
00:40:09.120 --> 00:40:23.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But what i'm seeing from your work. And this conversation is, is that because you are conscious you naturally are inclusive, and you naturally think about
00:40:23.780 --> 00:40:33.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How do I incorporate other groups? And the problem is for people who stay in this? I'm not a racist mode.
00:40:33.410 --> 00:40:35.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They're not intentional
00:40:35.860 --> 00:40:54.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: about their actions because they're unconscious about the ways in which they perpetuate racism. So when they walk in a room, or they look at their marketing materials, and they see nothing but white people on it. It doesn't even occur to them that they need to include someone of color.
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Why? Because you know, i'm not a racist.
00:40:58.520 --> 00:41:00.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But you're perpetuating racism
00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:06.790 Lesley Michaels: Exactly. And as you say that something occurred to me that has never occurred to me, I am so sorry.
00:41:07.970 --> 00:41:09.300 Lesley Michaels: allergy season.
00:41:11.070 --> 00:41:11.970 Lesley Michaels: Excuse me.
00:41:15.490 --> 00:41:18.780 Lesley Michaels: and that is, you spoke about intentionality.
00:41:21.120 --> 00:41:34.010 Lesley Michaels: and you said that I am intentional about including other people. I had never realized it until you said that. But at this point it's not that I am intentional about including other people.
00:41:35.380 --> 00:41:37.680 Lesley Michaels: because it has become
00:41:38.690 --> 00:41:40.810 Lesley Michaels: as natural as breathing to me.
00:41:40.970 --> 00:41:46.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And that's actually what I mean about intentional. I don't mean that you are
00:41:46.540 --> 00:41:51.530 Lesley Michaels: saying oh, I got to include a black person, and maybe the intentional was
00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:00.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: not not exactly the right work. So thank you for this. I I love the dynamics of this conversation. What I am actually saying is
00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:06.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: your consciousness allows you to pay attention
00:42:06.930 --> 00:42:15.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and say that it's just natural right. So maybe that's a different way of of saying it. But if you are not
00:42:15.160 --> 00:42:20.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: conscious enough about racism.
00:42:20.830 --> 00:42:25.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you don't recognize racism when you see it.
00:42:25.740 --> 00:42:28.750 Lesley Michaels: But your awareness has made you say.
00:42:29.190 --> 00:42:31.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, why wouldn't I include a black person.
00:42:31.390 --> 00:42:39.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for they have American or Latin as well? You know what i'm saying. It's just yes for just looking, you know. Often when people look at things
00:42:39.900 --> 00:42:45.470 Lesley Michaels: when they look at marketing or when they decide whether they are going to hire somebody.
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:56.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and it's a person of color, they said. You know Something's not quite right about that picture, or I don't seem to fit with our organization.
00:42:56.240 --> 00:42:58.070 Lesley Michaels: They're not conscious.
00:42:58.190 --> 00:43:00.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That is the racism. That's
00:43:00.660 --> 00:43:10.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right. Yeah, for them. So I think what i'm saying is in your work. It has made you more expansive and more inclusive
00:43:10.270 --> 00:43:11.480 Lesley Michaels: that
00:43:11.870 --> 00:43:14.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you are saying.
00:43:14.630 --> 00:43:20.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, we are going to embrace people, and this is a very different thought than saying.
00:43:20.620 --> 00:43:35.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I don't see color, but we're going to hold that, thought. We're going to hold that. And when we come back we're going to talk about. What's the difference between saying, I don't see color versus embracing
00:43:35.150 --> 00:43:43.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the difference in and wanting to be inclusive. So it have to take a quick break, and when we come back we'll continue our conversation with
00:43:43.430 --> 00:43:50.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Leslie Michaels the disruptor, She continues to talk about being an anti-racist will be right back.
00:43:54.210 --> 00:44:18.300 Everybody. It's tommy deed and non-profit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on talk radio and Ny. Z. I hosted program for lambda can focus non-profits in cocktails each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: each week at 10 a. M. Eastern standard time until 11 a. M. Is from standard time right here on talk radio, Dot Nyc.
00:44:19.120 --> 00:44:46.900 In that post movement world you may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life? Or do you just want to participate in self understanding and awareness. I'm. Frank R. Harrison, host of Frank about health, and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you. Tune in every Thursday. 5 P. M. On talk radio and Nyc. And I will be frank about help to advocate for all of us.
00:44:50.440 --> 00:45:20.740 Are you a conscious co-creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? I'm Sam Leibowitz, your conscious consultant, and on my show the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity, we will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen. Live at our new time on Thursdays, at 12 noon, Eastern time. That's the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. Thursday's 12 noon on talk, Radio and Nyc.
00:45:25.130 --> 00:45:35.050 You're listening to talk radio nyc@wwtalkradio.nyc: now broadcasting 24 h a day
00:45:41.070 --> 00:45:41.670 a
00:45:53.200 --> 00:45:54.130 I.
00:45:56.050 --> 00:46:14.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We're back, and Leslie before the break. I made a statement that I that there was a reaction that those of you who are just listening couldn't see when I said, there's a difference between saying I don't see color, and then being expansive enough and inclusive enough where color. Isn't the thing
00:46:14.740 --> 00:46:21.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that guides your actions. So talk to me about what went through your mind when I said, I don't see color.
00:46:22.600 --> 00:46:32.010 Lesley Michaels: Oh, it just drives me while Carolyn, so I can't even fathom. I truly recognize that I can't fathom what it does for you.
00:46:32.060 --> 00:46:36.780 Lesley Michaels: When someone says to me, as many have. I don't see color.
00:46:39.240 --> 00:46:45.660 Lesley Michaels: I will say, and it just came out of my mouth the first time I heard it, and it's stuck.
00:46:46.810 --> 00:46:53.220 Lesley Michaels: I didn't realize you were blind. You you navigate this world really well.
00:46:54.690 --> 00:46:59.440 Lesley Michaels: because it is that ridiculous to me. It is that
00:46:59.580 --> 00:47:03.120 Lesley Michaels: offensive to me what
00:47:03.160 --> 00:47:10.530 Lesley Michaels: I hear, and this is just me. But what I hear when someone says I don't hear I don't see color is.
00:47:12.060 --> 00:47:22.360 Lesley Michaels: I don't have enough interest in my world to understand anything more than my little corner.
00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:23.710 Wow!
00:47:23.730 --> 00:47:35.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And and and I will tell you for me and and and as a person in terms of experiencing it, and just teaching this What I hear you say I don't see color.
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:48.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What it says is that you're not actively dismantling racism because you're not actively conscious enough to even be bothered with it. I think it allows you to kind of ignore how complex
00:47:48.010 --> 00:47:56.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: racism really is in this country, and what it really says is. You don't understand my struggles. You can't. If you can't see color.
00:47:56.290 --> 00:48:04.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you don't understand what it's like for me to grow up day in and day out, and how you're gonna fix something You can't say
00:48:04.930 --> 00:48:07.450 Lesley Michaels: I would take it one step further, Carolyn.
00:48:09.250 --> 00:48:12.140 Lesley Michaels: I would say, not just that
00:48:12.570 --> 00:48:14.980 Lesley Michaels: they can to understand your struggles.
00:48:15.730 --> 00:48:18.660 Lesley Michaels: They have absolutely no
00:48:18.740 --> 00:48:31.810 Lesley Michaels: interest, no curiosity, compassion, to engage in understanding your struggles, not understanding your struggles.
00:48:31.950 --> 00:48:33.250 Lesley Michaels: that's fixable.
00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:40.280 Lesley Michaels: But these other elements. This is where it becomes.
00:48:41.990 --> 00:48:45.000 Lesley Michaels: This is where it becomes critical, and and
00:48:45.610 --> 00:48:52.160 Lesley Michaels: creates critical situations in our society, an absence
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:59.290 Lesley Michaels: of curiosity, an absence of compassionate curiosity, and
00:48:59.610 --> 00:49:05.210 Lesley Michaels: a willingness to not. No
00:49:05.340 --> 00:49:10.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, and our willingness to say, I really have no clue.
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:28.380 Lesley Michaels: and just start there, even if you don't start an anti racist study at that point Be honest, yeah. And and I love that because I actually ties it all in there. If you can say to yourself.
00:49:28.720 --> 00:49:30.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what more do I need to know.
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:43.220 Lesley Michaels: to be curious to be interested, because when I use the phrase, you don't understand my stroke. What i'm really saying is, you're minimizing my struggle, because if you don't see
00:49:43.250 --> 00:49:52.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what i'm going through, if you don't see that color when I tell you that something happened to me because i'm a black woman.
00:49:52.330 --> 00:49:57.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you truly are interested, you'll say, tell me more about that.
00:49:57.540 --> 00:49:58.400 Lesley Michaels: or
00:49:58.610 --> 00:50:10.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you'll say, Well, why do you think it was based on your color as opposed to this is what people say. Why are you sure it was about your color, or why are you playing the race card? But, Leslie.
00:50:10.750 --> 00:50:29.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: as always, you know, we run out of time on these on my show, because we're so engaged to what we have to talk about. So I want to give you an opportunity. Is there anything that you want to share with people that you haven't already shared in terms of becoming an anti racist? And
00:50:29.560 --> 00:50:32.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and how you would encourage people to continue the journey.
00:50:36.040 --> 00:50:38.680 Lesley Michaels: Ask yourself, do you care about your world?
00:50:39.290 --> 00:50:40.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.
00:50:40.870 --> 00:50:47.400 Lesley Michaels: Ask yourself if you care about your country. Ask yourself. If you care about your community.
00:50:49.430 --> 00:51:01.540 Lesley Michaels: ask yourself if absolutely nothing in this world changed between now and whatever time you are called out of this world. Are you okay with that?
00:51:01.970 --> 00:51:07.410 Lesley Michaels: This, okay? Is this enough for you? Is this enough for you to leave to your children?
00:51:07.650 --> 00:51:12.390 Lesley Michaels: Do you feel like this? Is enough for you to leave to your grandchildren your great-grandchildren.
00:51:13.060 --> 00:51:17.530 Lesley Michaels: Well, then, if that's the case I have nothing for you; but if
00:51:17.740 --> 00:51:19.670 Lesley Michaels: that's just the way it
00:51:20.010 --> 00:51:23.610 Lesley Michaels: i'm nothing. It's a bit more blunt with it
00:51:23.680 --> 00:51:32.030 Lesley Michaels: not to put too sharp a point on it. But if there is any little tingle inside of you that says
00:51:33.450 --> 00:51:34.610 Lesley Michaels: maybe not.
00:51:34.780 --> 00:51:35.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:38.120 Lesley Michaels: Maybe not.
00:51:38.990 --> 00:51:43.910 Lesley Michaels: Follow that thread wherever it takes You
00:51:44.780 --> 00:51:48.430 Lesley Michaels: be scared. Be uncomfortable.
00:51:48.870 --> 00:51:56.620 Lesley Michaels: feel stupid. It's okay to feel stupid. I can't tell you how many times I feel stupid for not knowing what seems so obvious.
00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:03.200 Lesley Michaels: Be courageous in these kinds of ways. We don't see
00:52:03.680 --> 00:52:09.650 Lesley Michaels: the understanding of the word courageous. I don't think in a broad enough context.
00:52:10.130 --> 00:52:21.640 Lesley Michaels: It takes courage to feel stupid. It takes courage to receive snap, pack. It takes courage to apologize and expect nothing in return.
00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:23.420 Lesley Michaels: The
00:52:24.030 --> 00:52:32.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: be courageous. Hmm. That final one is is really huge, Leslie, to say, expect nothing in return.
00:52:32.620 --> 00:52:39.350 because most people, when they think about their fears and their missteps, as it relates to racism.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:48.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They worry about shame and kills, which we didn't really go into today. But a lot of people when they make a misstep.
00:52:48.150 --> 00:53:01.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: then they live in their shame. I've had people. I was teaching a course just very recently. This church invited me to come in, and I was asking participants why they were there, and this one participant said: because
00:53:02.090 --> 00:53:08.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when we were engaged in a conversation separate from the course you said something that challenged me.
00:53:09.030 --> 00:53:18.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: challenged my act, and when I got in the car I had all kinds of conversations with myself. My family, like well how they or she say, blah blah blah blah!
00:53:19.290 --> 00:53:21.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then I had to just take a step back
00:53:22.080 --> 00:53:38.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and here what you said, and that's why i'm in the course. So we're going to make the mistakes. We're going to walk in fear. Sometimes we're going to feel guilt and shame, which I never encourage, because it doesn't really take us to the next step.
00:53:38.610 --> 00:53:52.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Deal with the emotions of the situation, and let's move from there, Leslie. It has been a delight to have you on the show, and I wonder if you could tell people how to get in touch with you, and then offer us
00:53:52.670 --> 00:54:05.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: some words of encouragement. I mean, you just did offer us plenty, but if you have another little kernel you want to offer us, I want to give you the opportunity to do that. But first tell my audience how they can reach you.
00:54:06.720 --> 00:54:28.040 Lesley Michaels: It's easy, Leslie Michael's dot com. Now let me tell you I have a British Mom. So it's. L. E. S. L. E. Y. Michael's dot Com. My website will take you all over the place. My social media sites, my programs, my book, whatever it is, i'm doing so I make it as easy as possible.
00:54:29.430 --> 00:54:44.170 Lesley Michaels: I was as far as one little kernel. I just had this beautiful woman on my podcast the other day, and she was talking about the secrets we keep and the number one secret in her extensive research that we keep is our shame.
00:54:44.330 --> 00:54:45.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.
00:54:46.120 --> 00:54:47.540 Lesley Michaels: And
00:54:50.590 --> 00:55:01.460 Lesley Michaels: if you get snap back and it's uncomfortable. Don't, walk away and bury it inside of you. It causes us to have physical illness, emotional illness.
00:55:01.660 --> 00:55:03.770 mental illness.
00:55:04.230 --> 00:55:10.530 Lesley Michaels: get rid of it. And how do you get rid of it? You look at
00:55:10.540 --> 00:55:22.170 Lesley Michaels: Why, you're ashamed. Are you a shame? Because you didn't know that. Well, then go out and learn that'll cure the shame. Go out and apologize and expect nothing in return.
00:55:22.190 --> 00:55:24.320 Lesley Michaels: But let go of the shame.
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:24.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.
00:55:26.690 --> 00:55:44.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Leslie, Thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you for being a woman who walks courageously in spite of fear, because it's courageous doesn't mean that you don't have the fear. Thank you for that, and thank you for your dedication to be an anti racist and a disruptor
00:55:45.350 --> 00:55:55.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of the status quo in every way. I deeply appreciate you. I deeply appreciate my audience for listening today. Please be sure
00:55:55.510 --> 00:56:07.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to comment on Facebook or go to my website. As I said, Sacred intelligence.com contact me. Let me know the types of people in discussions you'd like to see on this show.
00:56:07.380 --> 00:56:25.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Please stay tuned for the conscious consultant hour with Sam. Leave with where he helps you to walk through life with the greatest of ease and joy. I mean today you tap into that part of you that will allow you to make choices that manifest your good while manifesting the good of those around. You.
00:56:25.040 --> 00:56:38.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Know that what you do matters make it a priority to share love, hope, compassion, and peace. Today be well. Be safe. Be encouraged until next time, Bye, for now.
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