Fridays 12:00pm - 1:00pm (EDT)
WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?
Thoughts and tips on planning for the rights needed to achieve business goals and growth.
EPISODE SUMMARY:
My guest, David Eramian, will discuss how companies of different sizes prioritize their budget and align an intellectual property strategy to their business goals.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/deramian
00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:41.960 www.TalkRadio.nyc: and it's all about the intangible aspects of business.
00:00:44.860 --> 00:01:01.740 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Our podcast and tangible is all about the intangible aspects of business, and my guest today is Mr. David Iranian. David's a real interesting guy who went from being a Phd scientist to a lawyer these these days to being a consultant and advisor
00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:09.510 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so deep. Let's start with a little bit of your background. Tell us about you know what what you do and what you've done.
00:01:10.090 --> 00:01:22.450 David Eramian: Sure. Thanks for having me, Matthew. Great, Great to chat about these topics with you. So yes, I was a scientist, Ph. D. Bio physicist by training.
00:01:22.450 --> 00:01:31.350 David Eramian: and really got turned on to intellectual property. I connected with folks that had made that transition, and it was just fascinating.
00:01:31.380 --> 00:01:45.110 David Eramian: It presented itself as the type of career where you're always learning new technologies. You're always working with folks that we're trying to start or grow a business
00:01:45.160 --> 00:02:12.320 David Eramian: and a lot of that. It it just it drew me in, and so I made that transition away from the proverbial scientist bench over to intellectual property law. 15 plus years ago my career as an IP attorney has been largely in house. I started working for the University of California system, doing what's what's commonly called technology, transfer or tech transfer, and that is
00:02:12.320 --> 00:02:27.970 David Eramian: helping researchers who have developed incredible innovations. They've developed great discoveries. How do they commercialize out? How do they take that out of the laboratory, start companies, partner with companies and actually see that be brought to market.
00:02:28.070 --> 00:02:35.830 David Eramian: Spent a few years at an IP boutique, and then for the past decade or so
00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:47.540 David Eramian: have largely been in-house financial services and fintech. So, as a paypal a number of years help paypal build out its its patent protections.
00:02:47.590 --> 00:02:58.660 David Eramian: E. C.
00:02:58.710 --> 00:03:08.280 David Eramian: And then most recently was at Black Rock as global head of IP at Black Rock. Many people know Black Rock is the world's largest asset manager.
00:03:08.370 --> 00:03:23.160 David Eramian: Not many appreciate. The Black Rock is a technology provider and has a very, very large software and Sas business. And so it is a really fascinating breath of different types of IP spending across trademarks, copyrights.
00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:27.020 David Eramian: patents, trade, secret and open source software.
00:03:27.070 --> 00:03:44.730 David Eramian: Black Rock was fantastic love the team but wanted to get something a little bit more entrepreneurial, and so, about 6 or 9 months ago, joined up with 5 former striped colleagues, launched an investment in advisory outfit, called Catalyze advisors.
00:03:44.730 --> 00:03:59.490 David Eramian: and then we're investing very early stage companies and advising them on all aspects of intellectual property, privacy, products, strategy, etc. So that's a little bit about me, for 150
00:03:59.500 --> 00:04:02.110 David Eramian: more will come out over the course of the hour.
00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:18.610 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks. Yeah. I think you know the range of the of the types of clients that you've worked with. You know you. You recite those 3 companies, paypal strike Black Rock, which are known and and larger, you know, at least in the eyes of many.
00:04:18.610 --> 00:04:35.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. But but some of these other clients that you work with through your catalyze, and that you've worked with through the University and elsewhere tend to be, you know, much smaller and newer. And I think you know the topic I was hoping to really address with you today is really that
00:04:35.960 --> 00:04:42.820 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that change that going from you know. Where do you go from being a startup like out of your garage? Hearing that.
00:04:43.070 --> 00:04:54.780 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. Gee! Maybe I need to get a domain name registered. Or maybe I need to get a a patent or a trademark, or whatever it is, maybe even driven to it because of the Amazon or something else
00:04:54.850 --> 00:05:01.810 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: to You know where your mindset is. Okay, i'm supposed to get this thing. Let me go. Hire a lawyer and go do that
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:02.880 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: to
00:05:03.390 --> 00:05:12.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. Actually, I have a global portfolio that I manage with in-house attorneys maybe more than one right.
00:05:12.810 --> 00:05:29.120 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And that variation over time, and how people plan for that. So you know. How. How would you advise? Maybe the the newest companies that are just starting out? Maybe they don't even have their company formed yet, or they only have their first employee.
00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:35.230 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: How would you? How? Where would you start with someone like that great question, I I think, starting off
00:05:35.280 --> 00:05:42.510 David Eramian: these days. My experience, as many people have heard generally of intellectual property or IP
00:05:42.580 --> 00:05:56.500 David Eramian: it's. It's something where it's talked about in and chose like Silicon Valley. Things were reported patent disputes, big patent disputes, apple or others. Those get reported in mainstream
00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:17.110 David Eramian: newspapers and and things that many people see. So my experience is many startup founders and early employees They know generally a bit about IP they've heard about IP, and I like the way you put it. You know it. Maybe they know they need to get a domain name, or maybe they heard from a friend or someone else that they need to get a trademark.
00:06:18.550 --> 00:06:27.720 David Eramian: and what I often find, though, is early on in particular. This is true even as a company scales. But there is a question of
00:06:28.260 --> 00:06:42.210 David Eramian: prioritization. There's a question of resources. And how do you right size what you could or should be doing when it comes to intangible assets, protection of intangible assets.
00:06:42.550 --> 00:06:51.690 David Eramian: So, starting first with with the folks, you know your example, the the one or 2 people really just starting off. What do I generally see there.
00:06:51.960 --> 00:07:03.960 David Eramian: I think there is. There's many things beyond just patents when it comes to IP protection that that those folks could probably start with, and I say that only because
00:07:04.350 --> 00:07:16.780 David Eramian: I find that people often equate at that stage like IP as patents. I'm too small for patents. I don't really need to worry about that for a few years, you know a pre-product market fit, and so I have no IP concerns
00:07:17.180 --> 00:07:29.700 David Eramian: your chocolate. Yes, of course I think we you know, even early on that a company formation. Maybe these folks were working on it for for a while before they found it, and actually started the company.
00:07:29.820 --> 00:07:33.110 David Eramian: Well, when you go to get investment dollars.
00:07:33.580 --> 00:07:40.400 David Eramian: investors are probably going to kick the tires on. What do you actually own? And what's your proof that you own it.
00:07:40.650 --> 00:07:43.760 and so things that Aren't particularly glamorous, but
00:07:43.820 --> 00:07:46.280 David Eramian: having founders, actually
00:07:47.300 --> 00:07:48.360 have
00:07:48.590 --> 00:07:56.610 David Eramian: good assignment to the company that the work that they've done pre-formation, post formation.
00:07:56.910 --> 00:08:05.660 David Eramian: and for all the employees that they've hired, all of that is actually signed and owned by the company. So all of these great intangible assets actually
00:08:05.830 --> 00:08:10.910 David Eramian: reside with the company itself that's looking to get investment dollars.
00:08:11.710 --> 00:08:25.850 David Eramian: You're chuckling. but time and time again like that. That is something where, when you're building quickly. it's often not a top priority, and it's it's something that you know often doesn't rear as a potential problem for many years down the line.
00:08:26.570 --> 00:08:32.280 David Eramian: But beyond that I think you touched upon a few examples. I'm probably going to kick this back to you.
00:08:32.750 --> 00:08:40.120 David Eramian: Sorry things domains, trademarks, securing your digital identity
00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:58.690 David Eramian: in many ways can be easier early on. And so i'm gonna flip this back to you, because I know you work with with companies of all sizes. So these 2 hypothetical folks in a garage. What do you advise them on the domain and trademark side? Because.
00:08:58.940 --> 00:09:04.310 David Eramian: you know, we both seen that go wrong many, many times where they need a rebrand. So what would you say to them?
00:09:04.800 --> 00:09:16.600 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, I mean it. It does often go wrong, but it it. It always depends on the particular situation. That that's the boarding lawyer, Lawyer answer. But but you know I I've definitely seen.
00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:27.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know the these small businesses. They come and they go. Oh, I I already got my company name. My companies formed. I spoke to an account, and the company name was available.
00:09:27.770 --> 00:09:29.820 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: or I already registered the domain name.
00:09:30.110 --> 00:09:38.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and they have a perception that that means that they can use that name, and they can use it nationally, and they can use it globally, which is untrue.
00:09:40.010 --> 00:09:49.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And so there's a perception. Okay, I took that first step. I formed the company, but they actually Haven't necessarily secured rights in the name that they're going to use
00:09:49.660 --> 00:09:51.370 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in the public facing way.
00:09:51.590 --> 00:10:05.850 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The the other, I think common one going back to patents is, you know, they want to put that off. because it's expensive, and because it's intensive in terms of the work to be done for it.
00:10:06.250 --> 00:10:11.120 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But that's the one of all of the intellectual property rights. That's the one that's got a time with.
00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So that's the one that if they're going to do it
00:10:14.780 --> 00:10:17.230 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: they gotta do it. They gotta do it soon.
00:10:17.570 --> 00:10:37.080 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: whereas they they can sometimes delay. You're right. If they wait on domain names. If they wait on trademarks, they may end up having to clean up. you know, after the fact, because someone else might have been into the punch, and they'd be chasing it. And so it's good for them to do that early, too. But you said it's about prioritization.
00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:48.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I think the first thing I I try to do is assess whether there is anything that is potentially patentable and patentable, not only being
00:10:48.170 --> 00:10:56.990 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the patents that everyone knows the so-called utility patents that are about how things work. but also patents on designs. What things look like
00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:08.750 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and make sure that they're either not going to pursue them, and they're going to keep them the secrets if they can, or if they are going to pursue them. We focus on that first.
00:11:08.930 --> 00:11:16.070 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and then I make sure that they don't be misled by the availability of the company name or the domain main. But yeah, I agree. Get them early, if you can.
00:11:16.650 --> 00:11:21.530 David Eramian: but on the on that I but maybe we can come back to the patents piece.
00:11:21.610 --> 00:11:26.140 David Eramian: and just stay for a minute or 2 on on the domains, and and clearing the name
00:11:27.830 --> 00:11:30.910 David Eramian: early on. I I would say, you know
00:11:30.990 --> 00:11:37.810 David Eramian: the fact that you know the seat Corp or the Llc. Is registerable as a name in Delaware. That's great.
00:11:38.630 --> 00:11:46.360 David Eramian: but it's not sufficient. And so I think that's an important point that you raised around, you know.
00:11:46.520 --> 00:11:48.750 David Eramian: working with an attorney
00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:57.750 David Eramian: or some of the publicly available databases and doing some searches not just in the Us. Where may you expand? What are your expansion
00:11:58.760 --> 00:12:07.530 David Eramian: mit ctl and plans? If things go well globally. Is this a name that you could actually use, or is somebody already using it internationally, 150.
00:12:07.650 --> 00:12:12.470 David Eramian: Those, again. don't need to be huge time consuming steps
00:12:12.510 --> 00:12:18.720 David Eramian: early on It's something that can be done efficiently and
00:12:18.810 --> 00:12:21.790 relatively, inexpensively, and saves a world of heartache
00:12:21.830 --> 00:12:24.230 David Eramian: down the line. If you need to rebrand
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:42.430 David Eramian: because you're running into a potential problem down the line. And so early on those would be the things that I'd say. And then, you know, certainly patents that feels like a an area where we'll dive in quite a bit more, because I agree it's time bound they gotta move quickly. And so there, there's a
00:12:42.790 --> 00:12:45.300 David Eramian: the the taking clock there for sure.
00:12:46.490 --> 00:13:00.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so great. We gotta go to break. So when we come back, let's talk a little bit about patents and then let's talk about globalization, particularly in the Internet economy where a lot of these businesses are, you know, based on the Internet. So Don't necessarily
00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:07.790 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: operate solely in the United States. You've been listening to and tangify on talk radio, dot Nyc. And then we'll be back short.
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00:14:53.140 --> 00:14:54.570 the
00:15:11.510 --> 00:15:12.150 you
00:15:14.580 --> 00:15:15.190 to
00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:36.400 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: listening to in Tang. If I on top radio, dot Nyc: my guess is David Iranian, who's formerly in house counsel for paypal stripe and black rock, but works with catalyze investors. I kind of like advising
00:15:36.400 --> 00:15:43.710 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: small businesses, entrepreneurs on their intellectual property and other aspects of their businesses.
00:15:43.880 --> 00:16:02.210 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So, David, we were talking before the break a little bit about intellectual property, and particularly about patents, and one of the things we talked about is patents having a time limit at patents, being something that people need to consider if they're going to pursue. Consider early.
00:16:02.400 --> 00:16:12.690 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So what kind of guidance do you have for the the new business? The the 2 guys, one guy out of a garage, or one lady out of garage right?
00:16:12.880 --> 00:16:14.340 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It doesn't have to be in the garage, either.
00:16:14.380 --> 00:16:19.100 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Who who's got some inventive? He's got some incentive
00:16:19.410 --> 00:16:22.090 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: object or process that they want to protect.
00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:26.750 David Eramian: Yeah, it's. It's one that
00:16:27.500 --> 00:16:42.350 David Eramian: it's a tricky balance. But I do think that there is a balance, and what I mean by that is, you know, many companies view patents as a very large expense, and they can't be even relative to other types of intellectual property.
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.370 David Eramian: You're probably looking
00:16:45.550 --> 00:16:56.790 David Eramian: $1020,000 more for a us like a well done Us application. When you consider filing fees, etc., can be more depending on technology area, it can be less.
00:16:56.820 --> 00:17:02.460 David Eramian: But that's the rough order of magnitude just to start the process.
00:17:02.490 --> 00:17:05.099 And so with that I often ask
00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:13.280 David Eramian: To what end? For all of these? To what end? What are you trying to achieve and not what are you trying to achieve from a legal perspective?
00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:22.390 David Eramian: What is your business goal ultimately for me when it comes to? What is the strategy? Where should we prioritize? What should we spend
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:30.390 David Eramian: intellectual property? I think it. It. It always needs to reinforce what the business goals and business direction are.
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:31.600 David Eramian: And so.
00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:37.000 David Eramian: for example, a a small company that is, a few folks.
00:17:37.320 --> 00:17:41.430 David Eramian: They have some innovative technology. It's technical in nature
00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:49.370 David Eramian: Utility patents have to be technical in nature, so an improvement of computer or new diagnostic, therapeutic, etc.
00:17:49.620 --> 00:17:58.180 David Eramian: They're also, as you mentioned the design patent aspect, so it a new ornamental design. So ui things of that sort.
00:17:59.370 --> 00:18:01.580 If you meet that bar
00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:03.220 David Eramian: right.
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:12.510 David Eramian: you could proceed. But to what end? Or are you trying to potentially exclude competitors from moving into your your area
00:18:14.140 --> 00:18:24.620 David Eramian: potentially. Are you trying to secure additional funding by showing that, hey, we are able to protect our core technology, and certainly many, many studies.
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:30.400 David Eramian: And one of the reasons why early stage startups may consider
00:18:30.490 --> 00:18:49.180 David Eramian: patents or other form of intellectual property. I think there are many, many studies that show having just even patent applications, it only need to be issued patents highly correlated with increased funding future growth survival. I think it shows a maturity, a sophistication.
00:18:49.180 --> 00:18:55.810 David Eramian: just having the applications. And and so there's there's a lot of studies and data on that piece.
00:18:56.010 --> 00:19:09.220 David Eramian: But I think to be clear about why it is you're doing it. Do you want to have patent pending on your website? Is it that you really want to exclude competitors? Is it that you think it's something that
00:19:09.570 --> 00:19:14.470 David Eramian: you'll be able to derive revenue. I think there are many different avenues.
00:19:15.820 --> 00:19:23.630 David Eramian: But how many a file where you file, whether you go internationally what jurisdictions are important. It all comes back to that strategy.
00:19:24.510 --> 00:19:35.190 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, I I I totally agree. So you need to keep the business perspective in in mind, and have your your strategy and your plan follow along with that.
00:19:36.080 --> 00:19:44.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But I I do have to say that you know a lot of these businesses Won't have considered certain issues
00:19:44.150 --> 00:19:51.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that if they occurred would upset them. You know, if they found out that someone was selling the same.
00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:55.690 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know machine or following the same process right?
00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:57.430 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: What would be the thing that would
00:19:57.500 --> 00:19:59.850 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: pick them upset if they found out.
00:19:59.870 --> 00:20:11.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: found that out? It's not usually something that's in their business plan. It's not usually in this strategy. It's usually something we have to bring up and say, okay, understanding what your plans are, this is what your business is trying to do.
00:20:11.380 --> 00:20:19.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: This makes sense. This timing makes sense. For these reasons, given your budgetary limitations, and what your goals are but independent of that.
00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:27.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. Let me make sure I I give you the parade of horrible, and I've at least asked you. You know
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:32.270 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: how concerning is going to be. If you find out that someone else has.
00:20:32.390 --> 00:20:44.570 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, you know, sought to protect the similar invention as is making the same thing, or selling or importing the same thing, or something very similar. And you know, what would you do?
00:20:45.080 --> 00:20:45.810 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know
00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:49.990 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: What's your comfort level? Are you gonna Are you gonna take him to court?
00:20:50.250 --> 00:21:09.220 David Eramian: Are you, you know? Are you going to rely on demand letters? How? How's all that gonna work? I think that needs to be. You're right, and and I I've always found, certainly, when when anybody, regardless of size of of the company, when someone is infringing copying, whatever term you want to use
00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:18.890 David Eramian: E. There's often a sense of being wronged, and this is very personal. How can they do this? This is unfair. Those are are common emotions
00:21:19.950 --> 00:21:26.380 David Eramian: and the parade of horrible. Yes, those are all true. but in many cases
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:32.220 David Eramian: some companies will be balancing. We can file this patent application, and great, maybe avoid
00:21:32.300 --> 00:21:38.850 David Eramian: some event from happening, or we can take those same resources and hire a developer.
00:21:39.090 --> 00:21:58.160 David Eramian: And so I think, having that global view is so important for early stage companies it is. It is often that level of trade off where they have constraints, even if they have the money in the bank. Maybe their investors want to see only a certain spend rate.
00:21:58.190 --> 00:22:04.340 David Eramian: and so those are often the balances that I find folks making
00:22:04.350 --> 00:22:18.500 David Eramian: you and I know, like even having a form of IP. It's having it's one thing like being able to enforce it to actually enforce a judgment to take someone to court. That's expensive. And yes, there is litigation, funding, and other things that are available.
00:22:18.890 --> 00:22:20.560 David Eramian: So that's on the order of years.
00:22:20.650 --> 00:22:34.580 David Eramian: And so for companies, I think they should be aware of it. I think it's an important conversation to have. I think they should work with folks to think about this early, because, as you mentioned, you know, from the time you invent something, the clock is kind of ticking.
00:22:35.690 --> 00:22:43.340 David Eramian: but at the same time for many I don't think it's right or wrong that they always have to file a patent application or not.
00:22:43.520 --> 00:22:56.270 David Eramian: because these are the type of trade offs, and it's going to have tremendous variability. But it is something I want to come back. It is something that I think they definitely need to think about early on and earlier on than it may otherwise think.
00:22:56.740 --> 00:23:00.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah. So I I was gonna say, I think that they, you know there's this
00:23:00.310 --> 00:23:08.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: discussion about what you really need. and and what would be good if you had, but
00:23:08.150 --> 00:23:11.150 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: maybe you could live without, or or maybe you could defer.
00:23:12.490 --> 00:23:17.390 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and I think tied to this is aspects of industry, specificity.
00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:27.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you know. What is it that we're talking about trying to protect? In the first place, because, you know, if it's if it's, software or if it's fashion right.
00:23:27.740 --> 00:23:33.610 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the timeline in which those things are this life cycle of those types of products.
00:23:33.820 --> 00:23:44.520 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It tends to be a lot shorter compared to, for instance, like a pharmaceutical. You know something that will really utilize the patent rights for the entire duration.
00:23:44.730 --> 00:23:48.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And and the same applies with other forms of intellectual property.
00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:54.930 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Right? You know. Someone says, okay, i'm gonna use this name for the next 2 weeks for this launch.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:57.900 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It's very different from I'm going to use this for
00:23:58.010 --> 00:24:05.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: a year, and that's very different from No, no, this is my logo and my name, and you know for the foreseeable future it will always be this
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:11.090 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: an and when you hear those aspects of the industry and the timing.
00:24:11.230 --> 00:24:19.830 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you you know, as as the lawyer or the adviser. you that goes into your pockets. As to okay.
00:24:20.050 --> 00:24:23.410 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: here's why I think you don't need this, or you do need this.
00:24:23.520 --> 00:24:35.610 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: an and and then you can use that as part of your plan, and, like you said, reallocate funds that are not going to be used for for legal work and intellectual property work towards things that are much more pressing.
00:24:35.620 --> 00:24:36.670 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: or vice versa.
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:44.230 David Eramian: You know. I think these days kind of regardless of industry. You're going to have a domain name.
00:24:44.770 --> 00:24:53.630 David Eramian: You're gonna have a company name, and probably one or more product names. You're going to have this. You're going to need
00:24:53.820 --> 00:24:58.930 David Eramian: clean. IP assignment language. You're gonna need to have that. You're gonna have pretty. You're gonna need to have
00:24:59.010 --> 00:25:00.290 David Eramian: pretty good
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:12.960 David Eramian: ndas and contract language. So when you enter into a potential partnership the other side isn't able to just kill for all your secrets a few weeks later, because you have bad contract drafting.
00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:18.100 David Eramian: it is very different. As you talk about industry to industry here in pharma.
00:25:18.130 --> 00:25:34.190 David Eramian: If you're in therapeutic small molecule, therapeutics or biologics, that patents are the thing that give you super normal profits relative to others. And so absolutely that is a very different kettle of fish than if you're talking software
00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:40.570 David Eramian: both in terms of the life cycle. And I, I would say, in among any investors
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:46.410 David Eramian: large investors that I work with. There, there's almost a of you that
00:25:46.520 --> 00:25:57.000 David Eramian: patents can be a nice to have, but sell them. Do they see their companies really enforcing their patents in any kind of way that it makes a material difference. And so.
00:25:57.450 --> 00:26:09.100 David Eramian: being seen in software to protect the real core. What is the core. What is the competitive advantage that you have? What is it that if others were to implement?
00:26:10.540 --> 00:26:11.930 David Eramian: You know you'd be on just
00:26:12.020 --> 00:26:16.260 David Eramian: perturbed, annoyed. But it would be a real competitive detriment.
00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:20.730 David Eramian: And what are the things that to your point and patents can take
00:26:21.370 --> 00:26:33.180 David Eramian: 3 years or more, even if you expedite like 3 years or more to issue like what's still going to be relevant. These are all the factors that I I would factor into, and then you can layer on.
00:26:33.210 --> 00:26:37.890 David Eramian: Maybe this is a conversation, for for after our next break you can layer on
00:26:38.420 --> 00:26:48.970 David Eramian: where like, how do you start to be creative and thinking about. You know, businesses are global. Everything is global these days. And so how do you also layer on the
00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:51.170 David Eramian: anticipating for a future build?
00:26:52.070 --> 00:27:03.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, I think that that's definitely the topic for for after the break. So let's go to a break. Now you've been listening to in tang. If I on talk radio dot. Nyc: My guess is David Iranian, and we will be right back.
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00:28:08.020 --> 00:28:31.930 everybody. It's Tommy deed and non-profit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on talk radio and Nyc: I hosted program the lab of game focus non-profits in cognos each and every day and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: Each week at 10 a. M. Eastern Standard time until 11 a. M. Is from standing time right here on talk radio and Myc.
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00:28:44.110 --> 00:28:45.070 The
00:28:54.780 --> 00:28:56.510 me time
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:10.540 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: they're listening to in tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc, i'm your host, Matthew as well, and my guest is David Iranian.
00:29:11.020 --> 00:29:26.960 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So, David, we were talking a little bit before the break about balancing priorities, and particularly in these smaller sized businesses. You know they come to you. They think they need, You know, a trademark domain name, whatever. It is a copyright.
00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:36.720 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and they and think of it as a single thing that they need. And then, all of a sudden we turn around. And have you thought about X, Y. Z. A. B. C. Pd. And Q.
00:29:37.010 --> 00:29:44.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And then they're overwhelmed, and people like you and me are out there to really help them strategize and side.
00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:49.300 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know what should be their priority, how to align it with their business goals.
00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:58.160 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But one of the counter-balancing, you know, countervailing factors in in all this is that, like you tend to deal with a lower budget, They're out of pocket.
00:29:58.250 --> 00:30:02.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and they're doing a business that's on the Internet
00:30:02.350 --> 00:30:18.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and the Internet, as we know, has no borders. Right? I mean it can. You can target particular markets. But you're you know what you're putting up on the Internet is accessible across borders, and that often means that these intellectual property rights, which are.
00:30:18.970 --> 00:30:22.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, not national, regional in scope.
00:30:22.120 --> 00:30:35.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know it's a multiple of those in terms of getting protections around the globe everywhere where you're going to be. So how do you? How do you strategize? And how do you prioritize for for a small business on the Internet?
00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:41.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: That's worried about global aspects of their the business and competition there?
00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:45.660 David Eramian: I think the place to start is really just
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.400 David Eramian: echoing that point you just made.
00:30:49.490 --> 00:31:00.320 David Eramian: IP protections by and large are national, regional. They're not global. And I I say that only because that's a common misconception. I have the.com.
00:31:01.190 --> 00:31:13.780 David Eramian: therefore no one can use it. They can't use it in Europe. They can't use it in Southeast Asia like this is my name. You're not globally unique. There are additional steps that that you will need to take to protect
00:31:13.970 --> 00:31:22.190 David Eramian: for relevant jurisdictions. At the same time. Here You're right. It's hugely expensive, and can be hugely expensive
00:31:22.190 --> 00:31:38.430 David Eramian: if you were to go region to region country by country, and so even the largest brands. Let's let's stick with trademarks and brands. Even the largest brands. It's very rare to have truly universal global coverage, and every jurisdiction
00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:41.620 David Eramian: for their marks. It's. It's often not
00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:48.100 David Eramian: cost effective for some of these marks. And so with that, I I think
00:31:49.020 --> 00:31:50.180 David Eramian: often
00:31:50.740 --> 00:31:53.870 David Eramian: companies think about this Too late is my experience
00:31:53.980 --> 00:32:07.550 David Eramian: that the cost scare them off. and even doing that global prioritization that we talked about before they think about the international Protection too late, or they think about international protection
00:32:07.670 --> 00:32:13.200 David Eramian: and too much in American lands, and I have to say, like I I I'll accuse myself of this right now.
00:32:13.230 --> 00:32:15.760 David Eramian: because I just called everything, not us
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:29.280 David Eramian: international like that, Us. Centricity or taking, you know there's America. And then there is, you know, kind of rest of the world when when many businesses are not that dual headquarters, maybe maybe others.
00:32:29.850 --> 00:32:31.860 David Eramian: So with that
00:32:32.570 --> 00:32:52.490 David Eramian: how you you know, maybe you can speak because you know top of mind for me there's a lot of trademark and aspects where you can get protection into regions that you may reasonably go in in the near future. Or maybe you're further down the line in a cost effective way, and you can speak to that for a minute.
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:57.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Oh, throw it back at me. Okay, No problem.
00:32:57.360 --> 00:32:59.110 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah. I mean.
00:32:59.410 --> 00:33:02.370 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know I I think the balance is difficult.
00:33:02.510 --> 00:33:10.820 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know there are options in terms of timing protections when the company does want to get their protections abroad.
00:33:11.010 --> 00:33:16.450 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But I I think I you know I think the most important point you you raise is sort of this, Us. Centric.
00:33:16.650 --> 00:33:18.570 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: because
00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:22.500 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: at least these us based businesses starting out.
00:33:22.860 --> 00:33:30.350 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Think of themselves particular way, and they learn a little bit just enough about IP to get themselves in trouble.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:40.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: meaning in the world of trademark they think about. Oh, well, I understand that I have to be using my trademark in order to get the rights
00:33:40.900 --> 00:33:51.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that is a us-based concept. It does exist in a couple of other countries. but it is largely a us-based concept in most countries around the world
00:33:51.410 --> 00:34:07.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You just apply. You just be the first one to apply, and you get your trademark registration, and then you can stop other people from using it. and you can stop, and and only much, much later, 3 years, 5 years. Can somebody possibly challenge you if you're not using it?
00:34:07.820 --> 00:34:10.510 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It would go with this. Us lens.
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:16.389 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: A lot of the companies do exactly what they do, which is, they don't pursue the rights until too late
00:34:16.500 --> 00:34:24.679 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: rather than thinking, hey, i'm thinking about going into this market. I'm actually working on, you know, out opportunities in this particular market.
00:34:25.170 --> 00:34:32.340 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and not think at that time. Gee! Maybe I better secure those rights there first is where they foul up.
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:44.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and and I I think, sort of the the counterbalance is the bunch. So. But if they know, and it's particular markets, it's much easier to do, and much easier to do less expensive
00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:53.980 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: if they don't. There are all these treaties out there. and even larger companies. We'll take, make use of these treaties the treaties are
00:34:54.010 --> 00:35:09.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: well. Some of the treaties are not as good as actually going to the Z. Directly to a particular country. Certainly, on the trademark side. I feel pretty strongly about that, you know, but I know a lot of larger companies that say you know what
00:35:09.950 --> 00:35:22.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it's cheaper to do that. and that'll give us something. and then we can build it out over time. I keep telling my clients is why Don't, we set a case every 6 months every year.
00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:24.900 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: or we'll get together. We'll talk about what you got.
00:35:25.430 --> 00:35:33.430 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: what your appetite is in your budget is, and then we'll talk about expanding it. Let's take a portfolio minded approach that aligns with your business.
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:39.730 Yeah, I think maybe zooming out for a second because i'm just cognizant that we might have
00:35:40.100 --> 00:35:47.790 David Eramian: gone deep into inside baseball for a moment, but but to to get back to it, to to to that back.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:36:00.660 David Eramian: You know, there are a series of international treaties that exist between jurisdictions that are lower cost ways for securing some protection
00:36:00.660 --> 00:36:19.170 David Eramian: be at the domain side. There are a trademark side; rather. They also exist on the patent side, and so there are some options that can be explored. But really I I like that that last part in particular, Matthew, about that, having it just be part of the regular cadence of
00:36:19.390 --> 00:36:22.260 David Eramian: anticipating what is going to be important
00:36:22.580 --> 00:36:32.780 David Eramian: for your growth for your runway, and trying to get out ahead of it first. I I do think it bears mentioned, though, in talking about the international aspect
00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:35.770 David Eramian: and kind of going back to the first Segment
00:36:36.170 --> 00:36:40.090 David Eramian: Company is really just starting with an international view
00:36:41.110 --> 00:36:42.410 David Eramian: when choosing a name
00:36:42.510 --> 00:36:45.850 David Eramian: and not just focusing on
00:36:46.150 --> 00:36:57.640 David Eramian: i'm good. I didn't find anybody in the Us. That had this name. And then oh, okay. there's someone with this name in Europe, or maybe they're not even aware of that. And so
00:36:58.050 --> 00:37:01.880 that's that's one where I've seen it's it's a relatively
00:37:02.020 --> 00:37:18.080 David Eramian: very, very small incremental difference in cost and effort for them to take a more global view, because, as you said, a lot of these Internet based businesses are global. And so you should know what's out there and assume that you know your company will be successful.
00:37:18.110 --> 00:37:21.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: That's true, but just if I can chime in for a second
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:24.300 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: there is an element, though of
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:32.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: if they're not going to pursue those sorts of their own rights in those countries. That sort of taking a snapshot of what it's like.
00:37:33.010 --> 00:37:40.740 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Day gives you a sense of what's out there. But of course it doesn't tell you what it's going to be a year from now, or you know, or or longer.
00:37:40.750 --> 00:37:43.420 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And so, you know, there is this element of
00:37:44.010 --> 00:37:49.870 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: yeah. It would be good to know. But do I do I, you know, sit on that, and
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:57.300 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: or am I going to then be in for more spend? Because i'm going to go and seek rights in all these different places, perhaps too early on.
00:37:58.080 --> 00:38:00.800 David Eramian: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was thinking.
00:38:01.060 --> 00:38:03.560 David Eramian: completely agree. I was thinking more from the lens of
00:38:03.660 --> 00:38:08.880 David Eramian: There is a £800 gorilla out there in a different jurisdiction
00:38:09.520 --> 00:38:19.730 David Eramian: that when, if or when you go there, you're gonna bump into, and probably those. So you might want to know about that, and maybe choose a different name to begin with. So that that's kind of the lens there.
00:38:19.770 --> 00:38:27.880 David Eramian: Yeah, maybe just balance out on on the patent side for a second, You know, you talked about the treaties just for a minute.
00:38:28.230 --> 00:38:37.600 David Eramian: There are also these opportunities on the utility patent side. So it's very, very common approach for us, based companies
00:38:37.650 --> 00:38:43.210 David Eramian: to file their first patent application for particular invention in the us.
00:38:43.490 --> 00:38:52.660 David Eramian: and then they have the ability to take advantage of some of these lower cost options. Pct. Is the most common
00:38:53.190 --> 00:38:55.210 where they can really
00:38:55.700 --> 00:39:07.180 David Eramian: largely delay the decision of which jurisdiction they want to seek protection in for a period of years. It's very, very helpful from budgeting standpoint.
00:39:07.660 --> 00:39:09.420 David Eramian: At the same time, though.
00:39:09.520 --> 00:39:18.160 David Eramian: I I think there needs to be a recognition. There's no global patent in the standards in the United States or similar, but different
00:39:18.710 --> 00:39:19.680 David Eramian: from Europe.
00:39:20.270 --> 00:39:23.990 David Eramian: similar, but different from Japan and China
00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:34.990 David Eramian: and other jurisdictions. And so I would say, for those Con companies that do know, then international will be a big part of their business, and and that it is important
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.980 David Eramian: to largely incorporate some of that thinking
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:41.230 David Eramian: early in that initial patent application
00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:47.630 David Eramian: process. So what you are producing on day one has a better chance of withstanding
00:39:47.710 --> 00:39:51.240 David Eramian: group any from these different jurisdictions. Here is down the line.
00:39:52.010 --> 00:40:07.420 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, I agree. So so you know, having the lens of the way this is going to be viewed when people look at it in in such and such country, and how you're going to have to overcome those what problems you might encounter in that country, even if you're not yet filing there.
00:40:07.570 --> 00:40:09.610 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Just sort of planning for it
00:40:09.740 --> 00:40:26.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You mentioned. Pct. Let's make sure we spell that out for our audience. Right? That's the Patent Cooperation Treaty. That's an international treaty in which a very large number of countries are our members. And and, as you mentioned.
00:40:26.940 --> 00:40:36.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, essentially for a relatively minimal cost, upfront you essentially punk down the line to be able to say, okay, which countries do I want?
00:40:36.740 --> 00:40:44.380 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It's quite different from in in the world of of trademarks, where there is a treaty and international treaty called the Madrid Protocol.
00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:58.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You can use that tree to get your rights in various countries, but you must designate those countries at the time that you are seeking it. So you're not. You're not really pumping. You're paying for it right right up front.
00:40:58.460 --> 00:41:03.380 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So so that can be fact. Yeah. So Pcd.
00:41:03.820 --> 00:41:09.950 David Eramian: maybe one way to think about it. A partner I used to work with, you know. She likened it to
00:41:09.980 --> 00:41:29.300 David Eramian: you. Kinda got a plane. So you've launched a plane in the air, and it's it's just flying around. It's flying around the globe, and it just stays up there and then at a time, months years down the line you can choose where you're going to power. Shoot out which jurisdictions so you're not there yet, but it gives you the option kind of par. Shoot in
00:41:29.300 --> 00:41:39.500 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: down the line, and you're not. I don't know if I want to use that Paris fruit analogy. I think it should be where you're going to land. Maybe you land in a couple of place.
00:41:40.230 --> 00:41:48.350 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, but that that's a great knowledge, right? So that idea of you. You can do that. What is there? Is there a companion analogy for the the trademark treaty.
00:41:49.670 --> 00:42:02.300 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: if she was very patent specific, so if she had one, I don't know you can come up with one on the spot. You're a clever guy, but go to the airport and pick all your destinations right up front before you get on the
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:06.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: cool. Well.
00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:26.220 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: maybe you know we're getting ready to go on a a on another break. I was thinking, maybe when we come back, what we could chat about a little bit is moving forward. We've really talked about some of these smaller businesses just starting out and kind of some of the things they have. The plan. Even larger businesses need to do same things.
00:42:26.250 --> 00:42:29.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but but
00:42:31.120 --> 00:42:43.840 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but maybe what we could do is talk a little bit about advance. As those companies get get larger they start to hire people inside people like yourself who worked inside as a lawyer.
00:42:43.990 --> 00:42:47.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and how they how they build out over time.
00:42:48.500 --> 00:42:54.980 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Great. So you've been listening to in Tang. If I on talk radio, Nyc: and we'll be back after this. Break.
00:42:58.110 --> 00:43:22.020 Hey, everybody! It's tommy deed a non-profit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week. Here on top radio and Nyc, I hosted program. The lamb became focused nonprofits in cocktails each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: Each week at 10 a. M. Eastern standard time until 11 a. M. Is from standing time right here on talk radio, dot Nyc.
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00:44:49.340 --> 00:44:49.990 You
00:44:59.130 --> 00:45:05.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to intang if I on talk radio, dot Nyc i'm Matthew as though my guest is David Iranian.
00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:21.720 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: David, as I mentioned, was in house for University of California, and then stripe and paypal and black rock, and now works with catalyzed advisors, assisting businesses in their intellectual property and other intangible
00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:24.090 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: aspects of their
00:45:24.860 --> 00:45:28.600 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So David. We were talking a little bit before the break.
00:45:29.570 --> 00:45:46.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and really focusing on a lot of these businesses at their earliest stage. Really, when they don't have lawyers in house where you know everything's out of pocket, and they're trying to figure out their their plan. They need a strategy and a plan to go forward. How do they do all that?
00:45:46.710 --> 00:45:51.190 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But I think we should take things a little forward, as as you've done right.
00:45:51.200 --> 00:45:52.530 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: What's the next step?
00:45:52.610 --> 00:46:01.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Where do you go, you know. And how do you get to a place where you actually have those sort of resources in the house? And why do you need them?
00:46:02.150 --> 00:46:07.390 David Eramian: Yeah, it's, it's a continuum for sure, I would say, and
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:10.020 David Eramian: when the resources
00:46:10.040 --> 00:46:12.590 David Eramian: start in-house
00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:14.200 David Eramian: it's often
00:46:14.370 --> 00:46:26.410 David Eramian: not with an in-house attorney. So the company will grow when I join. Stripes right was about 360 people. I think there were about 7 attorneys at the time before they added an IP attorney
00:46:26.650 --> 00:46:45.090 David Eramian: that's really gonna vary based on sector and and industry and company revenue, etc. But what you see is a is a ramping up. So you know, starting from where we were with the the folks they start to have. You know the the pieces. Maybe they have a few patent applications
00:46:45.090 --> 00:46:51.460 David Eramian: Often I I think the tipping point that I see when companies will really start to invest
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:57.450 David Eramian: it's often in response to some kind of IP litigation that they had, or a threat or a potential threat.
00:46:57.730 --> 00:47:06.930 David Eramian: and that will be the catalyst that causes them to say, Huh? Okay, this is something we need to start to really take seriously or invest in.
00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:10.660 David Eramian: or, better yet, they didn't have that. But someone else
00:47:10.720 --> 00:47:23.950 David Eramian: in their industry, similar size happen to that's often where you see it where it's. Oh, okay. Now, I need to focus my attention here and resources here, because these are the type of negative things that could happen
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:38.820 David Eramian: most often in my experience just largely based on industry. That's that's on the patent side, where companies will have a large enough engineering workforce and product development workforce where they really want to start to build
00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:55.340 David Eramian: a patent program, and they need people in-house, because the volume of innovation is so great they can really justify it. And again kind of coupled with the external risks. And I say that because what is the business objective that you're trying to, which further.
00:47:55.730 --> 00:48:07.010 David Eramian: it is maybe maintaining freedom to operate. Maybe it is a recognition that if you continue to grow market share and revenue you're gonna be a target for patent suits.
00:48:07.210 --> 00:48:15.620 David Eramian: non-practicing entities, maybe also competitors in your space that that will be aggressive against you, and so many of these companies will do kind of
00:48:15.930 --> 00:48:18.050 David Eramian: to flip the switch at that point.
00:48:20.090 --> 00:48:24.530 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: That's great. Yeah. I I was talking with a colleague
00:48:24.620 --> 00:48:29.180 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: at at Meta, and recently learned that
00:48:29.550 --> 00:48:35.710 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: just attorneys just attorneys working for Meta in the privacy space
00:48:35.850 --> 00:48:42.980 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that there are 500. That's more than almost almost twice as many as the lawyers of my firm.
00:48:43.350 --> 00:48:48.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so it can really grow extensively. But
00:48:48.640 --> 00:48:52.500 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But you know this sort of triggering events you discussed.
00:48:52.670 --> 00:49:01.700 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It goes back to the parade of parables a little bit and kind of this. This idea of intellectual property as a cost center.
00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:15.230 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Right people are are concerned about risks and costs, and so they're devoting efforts to defend as opposed to necessarily looking for. How do they?
00:49:15.700 --> 00:49:20.020 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: How do they take these resources and turn them into income and revenue?
00:49:20.030 --> 00:49:30.000 David Eramian: Is there a counter side to that? Well, I think I I think you see, you really see both, I think, for many companies.
00:49:30.370 --> 00:49:35.410 David Eramian: if they view it as if you know a source of income and revenue.
00:49:35.500 --> 00:49:38.120 David Eramian: they've probably started very early on
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:51.970 David Eramian: that kind of discipline, with that kind of culture, with that kind of staffing of resources, internal and external resources for many others. That kind of get the religion after some event, as as as I mentioned there.
00:49:52.980 --> 00:49:59.060 David Eramian: but at the same time. I think you know the risks and parade of horrible, etc.
00:49:59.410 --> 00:50:04.330 David Eramian: You get a certain size that that is quantifiable to a large degree.
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:20.830 David Eramian: and so it's less about the pure speculation, and I think it can largely be informed by what are my actual risks. You can quantify this. You know their insurance actuators and others that are very, very good at this, and have it worked out.
00:50:20.900 --> 00:50:24.140 And so you know, for example, you know.
00:50:24.630 --> 00:50:31.300 David Eramian: reasonably established company can say what are my intellectual property risks
00:50:31.430 --> 00:50:42.980 David Eramian: over the next 3 to 5 years. You look to peer groups. You can look to industry trends. You can look to a lot of different factors. And then you can say, okay, these are my potential risks.
00:50:43.530 --> 00:50:49.170 David Eramian: Here's the likelihood of that happening. There's the amount that could be at stake.
00:50:49.190 --> 00:50:52.640 David Eramian: and you can very easily back into what is a reasonable
00:50:52.660 --> 00:51:03.910 David Eramian: spend with resources to try to mitigate that direct risk. And so a very simple one is. If there is a a particular patent threat, you know, Competitor a.
00:51:03.940 --> 00:51:11.740 David Eramian: There's maybe a 5% chance that they may sue us in the next few years because we're just heading in that direction patent claim.
00:51:11.870 --> 00:51:13.930 And if that is the case, well.
00:51:14.150 --> 00:51:15.830 David Eramian: how much it could be at stake.
00:51:16.720 --> 00:51:26.620 David Eramian: how would we counter that specific threat? And how do we need to build up our portfolio, and so you can back into again going back to Roi and furthering business goals.
00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:30.540 David Eramian: What should we spend? Should we acquire a patent portfolio
00:51:30.550 --> 00:51:50.130 David Eramian: to try to counter research. We invest more heavily in a certain area. And so I think these types of calculations. You have more data points, and so you can start to quantify to a much greater precision when you start to be larger and established. And the same is true on the litigation side just generally
00:51:50.300 --> 00:51:57.440 David Eramian: how much you budget for litigation and disputes and threats reach a certain point. You know the very, very large companies of the world.
00:51:58.510 --> 00:52:02.750 David Eramian: I got it worked out. They know how many suits are going to happen a year. Roughly.
00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:11.520 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: one of the things you mentioned a little bit earlier was establishing a patent program.
00:52:11.630 --> 00:52:25.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and i'm not sure that our listeners will necessarily understand what that is or what that entails. But I think that sort of also goes towards this I this idea of strategy and planning and building a portfolio of assets
00:52:25.160 --> 00:52:31.010 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: right as opposed to you know, finding religion when someone sues you, although I guess it can relate to that, too.
00:52:31.160 --> 00:52:42.930 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The talk a little bit about a patent program. What? What is it? Yeah, I I I think it's. It's often described as a patent program. If you look at job Postings for first in-house Council, IP. Counsel it's
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:53.890 David Eramian: often like to help us build our patent program I think that's actually the wrong way to think about it, and I I think, the better. It is a program to protect the intangible assets of the company full stop.
00:52:53.950 --> 00:52:55.130 David Eramian: and that can be
00:52:55.190 --> 00:53:06.330 David Eramian: trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, patents, open source software. I think it's largely comes down to really becoming embedded with your business and product, colleagues
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:12.360 David Eramian: and understanding what innovation and intangible assets are generating and just helping. Take the additional step.
00:53:12.550 --> 00:53:14.020 David Eramian: you know which of these
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:24.320 David Eramian: can we protect? Should we protect, we'll further our business and trust. And then which of the tools available to us in our IP toolkit patents being one, not the only one
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:25.550 David Eramian: is best
00:53:25.740 --> 00:53:43.870 David Eramian: to help us achieve the overall business objective that we're going after. And so it's often described as a patent program where you go out to the engineers and say, hey, what are you working on? I think it's actually much much more sophisticated than that when done properly, because it's more about
00:53:44.190 --> 00:53:50.370 David Eramian: just having that culture companies have culture of innovation. How do you have the next stop
00:53:50.850 --> 00:53:56.850 David Eramian: of recognizing, hey? We produce something that's very important. This could have a competitive advantage for us.
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:04.000 David Eramian: How do we go about and best make use of that intangible assets, and often that is, through some kind of protection through an IP once.
00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:10.130 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and that's really building the culture within the company to to to to do that type of work
00:54:10.820 --> 00:54:29.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in the I got a couple of more questions for. But maybe in the few minutes you've got left wanted to ask about the outside Council relationship right? So you know you worked in house. You work with outside council some of these companies that don't have attorneys that work in houses yet also work directly with outside council. What
00:54:29.890 --> 00:54:37.220 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: What kind of thoughts do you have about how to go about that, and how to manage the relationship with outside outside of.
00:54:37.610 --> 00:54:47.550 David Eramian: I think the best outside Council relationships are true partnerships between the business and the outside Council and the outside Council.
00:54:47.610 --> 00:54:52.370 David Eramian: Some of the attributes that I strongly look for.
00:54:52.550 --> 00:54:56.780 David Eramian: They need to know my business. The need to make recommendations
00:54:57.290 --> 00:55:07.270 David Eramian: really as a fiduciary, taking into account what's best for my business at this time, even it's against kind of their their immediate financial interest. And so, for example.
00:55:07.350 --> 00:55:14.520 David Eramian: if someone had a list of, you know, here's a 50 jurisdictions where you could protect your your IP.
00:55:15.180 --> 00:55:22.030 David Eramian: But I recommend you only do 5 of these right now. Well, they were missing out on the others. I need that level of honesty and true partnership.
00:55:22.110 --> 00:55:31.230 David Eramian: and the folks that will take the time to really understand what our goals are, what our roadmaps are, what our differentiators are.
00:55:31.420 --> 00:55:45.460 David Eramian: That's often on built time, and so generally it's those folks that take a very, very long view, and I also rely on those folks to be true subject matter experts, you know. I talked about kind of my 5 IP children. I can't possibly
00:55:45.710 --> 00:55:47.530 David Eramian: the as deep.
00:55:47.860 --> 00:55:58.710 David Eramian: and each one of those as the folks that truly specialized and truly truly follow. I I try. But you know I really rely on that expertise and industry knowledge 101.
00:56:00.530 --> 00:56:07.710 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: That's great. Any Any any final thoughts you'd like to share with the entrepreneurs in our in our audience.
00:56:08.370 --> 00:56:10.350 I I think
00:56:11.210 --> 00:56:13.990 David Eramian: I would just encourage folks
00:56:14.350 --> 00:56:28.950 David Eramian: to think very early about these, and that that may sound like a bias view, and and by that I mean intellectual property and tangible assets. They're a huge part of businesses value these days, and so to be
00:56:29.010 --> 00:56:38.980 David Eramian: perhaps more proactive and thinking about it, and really make some of these decisions eyes wide open again, might not be the right priority or right step for you at this juncture.
00:56:39.070 --> 00:56:45.550 David Eramian: but I think it's for better to have that as an informed decision, as opposed to just.
00:56:45.790 --> 00:56:52.450 David Eramian: We don't have the money it's so we're not even going to consider that. And so I think they're going to be great advantages
00:56:52.490 --> 00:56:56.160 David Eramian: in addition to the potential fluoride of horrible. But
00:56:56.270 --> 00:57:01.580 David Eramian: folks like map you are here to help. Should you have questions?
00:57:02.070 --> 00:57:18.610 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks so much, love the pluck. So thanks so much. I really appreciate your being here. You've been listening to in tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc: i'm your host, Matthew as well. My guest has been David Iranian from catalyzed advisors, and hope you have a great one. Thanks so much
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