WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?
- What is the difference between "race" and racism?
- What does "I don't see color" truly mean?
- How do we step out of the structures of Either/Or and into the mindset of Both/And?
- What is your part in creating a world were All People feel a sense of Belonging?
- Annmarie shares powerful poetry and vulnerable storytelling around the struggles she has faced as a bi-racial and multi-cultural person - of not being Either/ black enough /Or white - the edge of her racial dance.
EPISODE SUMMARY:
Annemarie Shrouder has spent more than 20 years in the field of Diversity and Inclusion as a facilitator, consultant, and international speaker, and is the bestselling author of Being Brown in a Black and White World: Conversations for Leaders on Race, Racism and Belonging.
A Diversity & Inclusion expert with a Masters in Bias Awareness, Annemarie inspires awareness and connection. Whether she is presenting to an audience, leading a workshop, consulting with a client, or writing, she creates opportunities for people to see more – more of each other, themselves, and the world around them. In so doing, she facilitates an opening to create spaces where people feel a sense belonging and connection, where they can learn together, and be all of who they are.
These are the spaces where real change can happen – for people, organizations and communities.
https://annemarieshrouder.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/annemarieshrouder/
All Episodes of The Edge of Everyday
Sandra Bargman on The Edge of Everyday
https://www.youtube.com/@sandraamazon
Tune in for this edgy conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
Tonight, Sandra speaks with Annemarie Shrouder who comes to us via Barbados. She is the bestselling author of Being Brown in a Black and White World: Conversations for Leaders on Race, Racism and Belonging. Annemarie also assists in the creation of healthy workplace communities through her methodology and inclusive leadership program that educates communities; people can learn, are supported and are valued. Sandra talks about how she has known Annemarie through her friend Leslie Michaels, who has a podcast where Annemarie was on. She is also friends with Dr. TLC, host of the Dismantle Racism podcast here on TalkRadioNYC and with Sam Liebowitz, Executive Producer and host here as well. Sandra moves into today’s topic about race, mentioning Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Annemarie included in her book a quote from Dr. King, “I have a dream.'' In her book, she discusses how he didn't have a dream that suggested we not see color in order to see the content of character. Sandra and Annemarie discuss colorblindness. Sandra also reads a poem that Annemarie writes in her book that mentions this topic with her mother. Annemarie tells us how she responds to people around her who say that they don't see color. She mentions that it's not the noticing that's the problem, rather it's the judgment that we make based on what we see.
Annemarie talks about her background. She is biracial; her father is black and her mother is white. She says how throughout her life, she has moved left and right trying to figure out where she fits. A couple of years ago, through poetry, it occurred to her that she doesn't have to choose between being black or white. She is black AND white. Both of those are true for her. What she does now is that she holds this space for people she works with. Annemarie loves going into an organization and shining light on things that haven't been spoken about or things that others haven't heard of because it creates change. She also speaks about diversity and inclusion. Diversity is a fact, inclusion she says is a feeling, and a quality of our experience. There is the “D” and “I” and now “E” included, meaning equity. She mentions the conclusions many people might have when thinking about diversity and how it affects inclusion and vice versa. There can be more diversity somewhere (meaning more people of different backgrounds), but we miss paying attention to the experiences that people have in that space (inclusion). In her opinion, she believes that inclusion has to happen first. It's the work that's needed.
In creating these spaces for these conversations, Annemarie says that she does it carefully as every group she joins and works with are all different. She says that it's important that there is compassion and a safe space. Although what is seen as safe can also be different for everyone. For her, safety is about “how do I hold someone when a mistake happens, how do I stay with them, and how do I show up.” In these spaces, people get triggered, defensive and people respond differently to these situations. Sandra also asks Annemarie about the rough edges that she experiences through her work. She says that it fills her heart when she is in the moments where she can feel people opening and are realizing something new. As for the edgy moments, she says that it is when people can't meet each other and meet halfway. She tells a story about doing a session years ago and someone couldn't wrap their minds around gender identity. She engaged in conversation with this person about how people feel and the space to help others feel acknowledged and important. But this was one of those edgy moments where this person couldn't understand her. Sandra expresses how special her book is and how vulnerable she gets as she includes teachings about race versus racism, the work she does along with personal stories of her growth being multicultural and her poetry. Annemarie also speaks on the difference between race and racism. She says that racism is caused by the ripple effect by race, the construct or what's made up. Racism though is very real because of the impact race has in the world.
Sandra reads a quote from Neil Gaiman about making mistakes or new mistakes and how it can be seen as a positive thing, and not worrying about whether what you are doing is perfect. Annemarie adds into this conversation that for her, she tells people that she works with that it's not just about the mistake, it's what we do after and with it. It's about how we connect with others and how we show up. When asked about why she wrote her book and who it is for, Annemarie says that she put “leaders” in the subtitle because she wanted leaders in particular to read it. If the leadership in an organization is open and understands the importance of this, then it's more likely to be a part of the organization. Overall though, she hopes that everyone picks it up and gives it a read because we are all leaders in our lives in some way. She hopes that those who are ready to explore how race has played a role in their lives will fall into reading her book. Personally, she says that she still grapples with the thought of whether “am I black enough?” Her edge is reminding herself of her worth as a human being and who she can touch through her work. You can find Annemarie Shrouder at annemarieshrouder.com where you can find more about her courses, her book, and much more. Before closing the show, Annemarie encourages everyone to pause and listen more; the power of deep listening.
00:00:15.690 --> 00:00:18.430 welcome everyone. I'm Sandra Bardman.
00:00:18.750 --> 00:00:29.510 A few years ago I wrote and performed a solo show called the Edge of every day, which was an exploration of the rough edges and contradictions we all face and grapple with.
00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:36.840 and the show hit a nerve, and the relevance of the topic would only grow over time more than I could have first seen.
00:00:36.990 --> 00:00:37.690 So
00:00:37.740 --> 00:00:47.110 here we are, real talk with real people, sharing stories and perspectives that spark provocative invitations to leap out of what's safe
00:00:47.120 --> 00:01:02.409 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: on the edge of every day. Thanks for listening down on you. Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining me on the edge of everyday. Here on talk radio, Dot Nyc.
00:01:02.940 --> 00:01:20.800 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Tonight we are live in the hive with diversity and inclusion, Expert and Marie shrouded author of the best selling book, being brown in a black and White world, Conversations for leaders about race racism, and belonging
00:01:20.810 --> 00:01:26.610 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: for our 50 third episode, entitled the Edge Between black and white
00:01:27.220 --> 00:01:35.939 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: as Anne Marie, so expertly and courageously explores in all the stories she shares in her informative and powerful book.
00:01:36.220 --> 00:01:40.410 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: How can we move from the structures of either, or
00:01:40.700 --> 00:01:53.930 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: choosing sides, staying polarized to the inclusive mindset of both, and that embraces complexities found within each of us and in our world at large
00:01:55.310 --> 00:02:09.219 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: for those of you who have become loyal listeners here on the edge of every day. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with me and my guests. Our numbers keep growing, and I have you to think I couldn't do it without you.
00:02:09.449 --> 00:02:19.150 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Please continue to share this podcast with friends and family, and take a moment to subscribe to my Youtube Channel Sandra, bargeman, on the edge of every day.
00:02:20.210 --> 00:02:23.869 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and if you're tuning in for the first time. Welcome to the edge.
00:02:24.050 --> 00:02:36.869 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: if you like, what you hear tonight, and you want to check out my past episodes with my inspiring guests. You can find them on. Talk radio, Nyc. On your favorite podcast platforms
00:02:36.890 --> 00:02:41.450 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and on my Youtube Channel, and again that's Sandra Barchman on the edge of every day
00:02:42.820 --> 00:03:00.570 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: this show is about pushing boundaries and exploring rough edges through conversations, and shared stories with friends and colleagues. It's my hope that we can begin to understand our edges, and what I mean by edges is those places where we are fearful.
00:03:00.880 --> 00:03:18.339 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: those places where we are resistant to change those places where paradoxes and contradictions live in our beliefs and in our understandings, both internally and in the world around us. Listen. We live in edgy, tumultuous times, and
00:03:18.370 --> 00:03:20.050 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: people are complex.
00:03:20.460 --> 00:03:23.529 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: The more we recognize our own edges, the
00:03:23.620 --> 00:03:28.080 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: those places where we either, or
00:03:28.260 --> 00:03:36.010 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and get real about them, the more we can help others to do the same, and that I fully believe can help to change the world.
00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:38.519 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: So thanks again for tuning in.
00:03:39.670 --> 00:03:44.910 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and without further ado it is time to introduce our guest this week
00:03:45.760 --> 00:03:57.110 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Anne Marie Shrouder has spent more than 20 years in the field of diversity and inclusion as a facilitator consultant and international speaker.
00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:07.150 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and is the best-selling author of being Brown in a black and white world, conversations for leaders on race racism, and belonging
00:04:07.950 --> 00:04:27.099 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: a diversity and inclusion expert with a masters in bias, awareness and re-inspires awareness in connection whether she is presenting to an audience leading a workshop consulting with a client or writing. She creates opportunities for people to see more
00:04:27.110 --> 00:04:44.639 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: more of each other themselves and the world around them. In doing so she facilitates an opening to create spaces where people feel a sense of belonging connection, where they can learn together and be all of who they are.
00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:46.620 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: These spaces
00:04:46.640 --> 00:04:53.170 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: are the spaces where real change can happen for people, organizations, and communities.
00:04:53.700 --> 00:05:00.389 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Anne Marie assists in the creation of healthy workplace communities through her signature, methodology
00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:03.039 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and inclusive leadership program
00:05:03.630 --> 00:05:19.300 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Mit, Ctl. And organizations turn to Anne Marie when they are looking to build environments where people can learn and are supported, and where they are acknowledged and valued; and she also delivers presentations, and can be found 150,
00:05:19.310 --> 00:05:28.599 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and can be booked for speaking engagements that inspire people to see more and raise awareness about the importance of inclusion
00:05:29.180 --> 00:05:35.890 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: for more information. Please visit Anne Marie at Ann Marie Shrouder Com.
00:05:36.580 --> 00:05:44.409 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hello, and welcome, Anne Marie shrouder. Hello, Sandra! Thanks for having me.
00:05:44.560 --> 00:06:01.799 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Well, thanks for coming on. It's always such a pleasure to read these incredible bios and yours, just your your your your book, your work is such an inspiration. I was deeply by reading your book.
00:06:01.950 --> 00:06:03.170 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Thank you.
00:06:03.650 --> 00:06:16.459 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Thank you a pleasure, and we're going to dive into that a little bit. But I, as I like to do, I like to share with my listeners how my guests come to me, and you come to me through 3 different people.
00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:17.590 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Oh, 3.
00:06:17.940 --> 00:06:27.399 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Well, you came to me first through my friend Leslie Michaels, who had you as a guest on her podcast, and I recently had another
00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:40.689 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: a woman who was that Leslie introduced, and me too, and it's to pleasure to be able to share these incredible people doing incredible work with each other. But Leslie Michaels, who has
00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.989 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: shout out to Leslie has a
00:06:44.090 --> 00:06:46.890 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: podcast that Anne Marie was on
00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:48.630 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: women, we should know.
00:06:49.160 --> 00:07:08.810 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: But also, you know, Terrylyn Curry, I do. Yes, who is a a host here on talk radio. Please check out her podcast, dismantling racism. And you are also friends with Sam Leibowitz, which I just who runs.
00:07:08.820 --> 00:07:20.870 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: which I did not know, but I had to speak with him today, so shut out to Sam, who has the conscience consultant, also on talk radio, dot Nyc: so we're plug in everybody
00:07:21.100 --> 00:07:21.850 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): so
00:07:21.890 --> 00:07:27.500 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: excellent. Yes, indeed, it's about uplifting everyone. So
00:07:27.960 --> 00:07:29.280 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: today.
00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:33.639 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Folks listening in here in the United States Emery is tuning in from
00:07:33.760 --> 00:07:34.550 where
00:07:34.870 --> 00:07:38.930 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the lovely Barbados
00:07:39.300 --> 00:07:55.269 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Oh, and where it's nice as the wind blows Here i'm a little jealous. Yeah. Oh, thanks, rub it in. That's right. No, no! Just sending them their way. You're setting me warm.
00:07:55.340 --> 00:08:07.569 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: actually I i'm I I do like the cold. I'm one of the strange people that do. It does like the cold. I don't like it all the time, but I but I do like the seasons. But anyway, here in the United States it's Mlk Day.
00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:20.120 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: how fitting to be talking about this work on this day the the the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Day. Today we celebrate
00:08:20.300 --> 00:08:29.869 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: his work, his legacy, his mission, and I love that that you have it in your book.
00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:40.469 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: A a quote of his that a lot of people throw around at this time. a lot of people who don't want to focus in on race Throw this quote around. Yeah.
00:08:40.789 --> 00:08:57.869 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I an Mlk: quote: I have a dream that my 4 little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character, said in 1,963,
00:08:57.980 --> 00:09:03.869 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and 60 years later I was born then 60 years later. Here we are
00:09:04.060 --> 00:09:07.120 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Here we are. I wonder what he I wonder what he would?
00:09:07.170 --> 00:09:09.090 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): What do we, what he would say about
00:09:09.420 --> 00:09:10.290 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): today?
00:09:10.390 --> 00:09:11.310 You know.
00:09:11.380 --> 00:09:20.389 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I mean that the the the spiritual side of me, the eternal optimist. Well, that's not even that. Those 2 don't even have to go hand in hand.
00:09:20.790 --> 00:09:26.209 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I know that strides have been made, but I also know that they
00:09:26.290 --> 00:09:27.359 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: they haven't.
00:09:27.610 --> 00:09:28.300 Yeah.
00:09:29.410 --> 00:09:31.080 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: So anyway,
00:09:31.730 --> 00:09:45.369 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you said in your book after that quote which I love because we're going to get into the color blindness. Mlk: didn't have a dream that suggested we not see color in order to see the content of character and
00:09:45.550 --> 00:09:48.219 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: the color blindness. And so I I
00:09:48.780 --> 00:10:04.339 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: love to forward of your book from your friend and colleague, Candy Barone. Am I pronouncing, pronouncing her name correctly? She, what you were attending a workshop or a presentation of hers. And she said the words, I don't see color.
00:10:04.380 --> 00:10:08.970 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yeah, which I have people in my life to to this day that still say that.
00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:11.880 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Oh, and so do I, my mother being one.
00:10:12.210 --> 00:10:30.450 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Well, I and you, You've got this incredible poetry folks. She has her own poetry in this book as well. And this is she said. Mom said, this is her poem. I don't you see your color, You said, I love you as if these can't coexist
00:10:30.460 --> 00:10:32.439 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: being and loving.
00:10:32.510 --> 00:10:38.070 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: And I wonder how you can love me if you don't see my brown skin
00:10:39.730 --> 00:10:42.039 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: beautiful, I mean like bam.
00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:49.579 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: How do you respond to people in your work, in your daily life, your friends, your clients? I don't see color.
00:10:51.410 --> 00:10:59.689 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, Well, thanks for reading the poem. First of all, it's interesting to hear it from somebody else's mouth. Right? how do I respond?
00:11:01.180 --> 00:11:02.180 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know
00:11:04.110 --> 00:11:05.520 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I know.
00:11:06.070 --> 00:11:10.230 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): or I think I know where I choose to know that when people say I don't see color
00:11:11.920 --> 00:11:15.149 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): they they they mean that they value me.
00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:19.800 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and they, you know they honor who I am, and they're not.
00:11:21.890 --> 00:11:39.810 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): they're not seeing me like some people in the world might see me as being taken down a. Not because of my skin color. I get that, you know, like like logistically, it's well meant right. And so and so I approach the the the the comment with with that kind of, you know, Grace.
00:11:40.020 --> 00:11:43.400 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I think we all need grace.
00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:45.920 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah. And
00:11:46.010 --> 00:11:49.440 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I like to talk about it because
00:11:50.020 --> 00:11:51.160 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): because
00:11:51.260 --> 00:11:52.159 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): i'm Brown.
00:11:52.790 --> 00:12:07.130 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know, this is my skin color, it is. It is a an integral and important part of who I am that is shaped My experiences. It shapes how I see the world it shapes how I move through the world, or don't in some, in some such, in in all situations.
00:12:07.150 --> 00:12:15.200 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And so what? I what I hope that people take away from a conversation with me about this shorter long is that
00:12:15.270 --> 00:12:19.109 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you have to see my color to really see me.
00:12:19.550 --> 00:12:30.380 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): The challenge becomes what we do with the seeing of it. That's where the problem lies, you know. So I I like to talk about how kids are always fabulous at noticing the obvious.
00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:40.230 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, right people with disabilities. People's, different skin colors, their height, their size, and they'll it'll pop right out of their mouth. And then we as adults freak out, because.
00:12:40.310 --> 00:12:51.550 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know, the Kid has said, and we want to, you know. Push them out of the room and and get out of there. It's not the noticing. That's the problem. It's the judgment we make based on what we see. That's the problem.
00:12:52.810 --> 00:12:55.730 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yeah. And for the people you know
00:12:56.090 --> 00:13:00.140 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: who continue to struggle with it that want to defend that?
00:13:00.370 --> 00:13:07.089 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: That yeah, it's. It does come from an acknowledging that it comes from a good place. And I i'm speaking of some some
00:13:07.350 --> 00:13:09.520 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: good friends of mine that defend it.
00:13:09.550 --> 00:13:13.559 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: The implication that it implies that because
00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:16.359 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you don't see the skin.
00:13:16.680 --> 00:13:20.660 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Then there's there's then there's the problem with the skin.
00:13:20.910 --> 00:13:24.440 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, I mean, once you just like it. Just
00:13:24.470 --> 00:13:34.179 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you just make that can a as a white person, Duh. Of course you know that they wouldn't be saying that about a white skin a person of white skin.
00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:36.820 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: so
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:45.230 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): it's amazing. The links we go to not see difference when difference is what makes us who we are.
00:13:45.880 --> 00:13:50.209 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and the power of diversity, and that that that's what this
00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:59.220 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: The name of the show came out of a scientific term about the power of diversity. But you know we talk about tribes and how they feel safe
00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:01.910 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: with sameness. Yes.
00:14:03.130 --> 00:14:10.890 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: but we've got to go to break, and that's a good spot to go. We don't want to. We don't need to unpack the the the psychological
00:14:11.490 --> 00:14:27.009 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: reasons why people like sameness. because we have glorious things to talk about in your book and in your work. So folks stay tuned when we come back with Anne Marie, we are going to talk about her wonderful.
00:14:27.150 --> 00:14:28.370 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: either, or
00:14:28.420 --> 00:14:30.670 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: versus both, and
00:14:30.780 --> 00:14:38.499 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: we're going to dive into all tendrils of that work when we come back with Anne Marie shrouded on the edge of every day. Stay tuned.
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00:15:45.560 --> 00:15:59.310 www.TalkRadio.nyc: are you on edge, hey? We live in challenging edgy time. So let's lean in. I'm. Sandra Bardman, the host of the edge of every day, which airs each Monday at 7 P. M. Eastern time on talk, radio dot Nyc.
00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:15.020 www.TalkRadio.nyc: Tune in Live with me and my friends and colleagues, as we share stories of perspectives about pushing boundaries and exploring our rough edges. That's the edge of every day on Mondays at 7 0, P. M. Eastern time on top radio. Nyc.
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:22.499 www.TalkRadio.nyc: You're listening to talk radio, Nyc, uplift, educate in power.
00:16:27.130 --> 00:16:28.000 you
00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:30.600 you
00:16:31.150 --> 00:16:31.730 you
00:16:32.160 --> 00:16:32.810 you
00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:38.970 chipping around.
00:16:39.290 --> 00:16:41.290 kick my brain to the ground.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.439 These are the days it never
00:16:46.410 --> 00:16:48.250 But oh.
00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:50.629 on the
00:16:51.260 --> 00:16:52.010 every day.
00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:56.719 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and we are back with our wonderful guest, Anne Marie shrouded
00:16:57.450 --> 00:17:00.589 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: so, Anne Marie, the linchpin of your work
00:17:01.370 --> 00:17:02.640 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: either, or
00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:04.010 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: versus
00:17:04.450 --> 00:17:05.880 both. And
00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:19.090 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: so so to talk to us about what that is. How how did you come to that understanding? How did that show up in your life? How is that the the lynch PIN the crux of all of your work?
00:17:19.329 --> 00:17:29.020 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hmm. There's a big question for you. That's a big question, so you know, and it, it continues to unfold. It continues to be something that I
00:17:29.040 --> 00:17:32.849 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): work on. Notice focus on. But
00:17:33.550 --> 00:17:34.949 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): so i'm by racial
00:17:35.310 --> 00:17:39.690 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): spoiler, alert for those of you
00:17:39.740 --> 00:17:56.169 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): i'm By racial, My dad's black, My mom's white, and I have spent, you know, most of my life. ping ponging back and forth between the 2 right? Not black enough for the black kids, not white, you know. Where do I fit? Where do I belong? How do I? How do I fit
00:17:59.110 --> 00:18:02.199 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and a years of how many years ago now? Hmm!
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:09.070 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): 3, 4, 5, I can't remember some in my late forties a few years ago.
00:18:09.130 --> 00:18:22.669 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I was at a retreat in Winnipeg, run by a a friend and colleague of mine, Joseph Ransas. We were talking about our work and what we do, and it it. It occurred to me through poetry, and that's why it took the book. Because that's how my heart
00:18:22.870 --> 00:18:23.979 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): right things.
00:18:24.050 --> 00:18:33.809 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hey? Hello! That's how I learn. That's how things drop in. That's how i'm sort of led to realizations and healing really
00:18:34.250 --> 00:18:53.599 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): so I had it started writing poetry again that particular weekend, and I I shared some of that in in the session that we did me and 3 white guys, and I was like, oh, I don't know if I want to share this poem, but they're amazing human beings, and you know, and I looked around the room. Everybody was sort of teary
00:18:53.610 --> 00:18:59.860 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): after where I was like. Oh, my goodness! You know they get it. It was about race and my skin color, but they totally got it.
00:19:01.620 --> 00:19:10.959 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I realized on that on that weekend thanks to being able to share the poem and talk about it, and talk about the parts of my life that it inspired that
00:19:11.060 --> 00:19:11.970 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that
00:19:13.340 --> 00:19:24.379 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): having to choose first of all, we know the world is very polarized, and so many issues. Yeah, you have to be here or there, and then we want to fight about it, and somebody wants to be right, and
00:19:24.510 --> 00:19:26.250 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): we know what happens After that
00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:31.910 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the what what suddenly came to me was. Oh, my gosh!
00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:32.950 Like
00:19:32.980 --> 00:19:44.770 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): i'm not black or white. I am black and white, and therefore me. And so both of those things are true, and I am an individual human being
00:19:44.900 --> 00:19:49.149 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that has that that, you know comes to the world with all these experiences.
00:19:49.330 --> 00:19:51.710 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and so what I do now
00:19:52.170 --> 00:19:59.209 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): is, I hold that space for people. Because yes, you know whether we're talking about black and white or any other, you know.
00:19:59.830 --> 00:20:07.740 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): 2 sides quote unquote. We each have work to do in our respective areas. Right? and
00:20:07.890 --> 00:20:09.750 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): let me come together
00:20:09.840 --> 00:20:20.619 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): to, and we really listen, and we share, and we hear, and we and we learn from each other, and with each other we can move forward in a different way.
00:20:21.100 --> 00:20:25.039 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and that's what i'm endeavoring to do in my work.
00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:33.219 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: It is so powerful. and it's so the edge of every day. I mean, that's really the the the
00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:51.149 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: one of the core tenants of the principle that I upon which I founded the original show. The edge of every day. That morphed into this podcast is an understanding of the complexities that each human being
00:20:51.310 --> 00:20:53.850 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: walks with, and each
00:20:54.970 --> 00:21:02.820 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: country and each government and each organization, the these complexities, and the willingness to.
00:21:02.840 --> 00:21:06.009 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: if we can hold the tension of all of that
00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:11.699 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: the profound what can emerge like young Young says
00:21:11.740 --> 00:21:15.910 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: that that can encompass all of that and
00:21:16.630 --> 00:21:18.370 create something new.
00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:22.519 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yeah, it not only solves that, and holds that in wholeness.
00:21:22.670 --> 00:21:25.269 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: but also create something new.
00:21:25.310 --> 00:21:26.160 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yes.
00:21:27.190 --> 00:21:29.770 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: the safety and the
00:21:30.030 --> 00:21:35.400 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: of either, or I mean, you know we just see it playing out in all the governments and
00:21:37.080 --> 00:21:39.940 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: And how do you work with when you are
00:21:40.060 --> 00:21:41.150 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: when you
00:21:42.010 --> 00:21:46.189 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: work with a a single client? Do you work with single clients
00:21:46.350 --> 00:21:51.050 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: like individuals. Yeah, or are you primarily somebody that
00:21:51.610 --> 00:21:53.700 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: that works in workshops?
00:21:53.810 --> 00:22:03.040 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, I'm: I'm: primarily. I'm: i'm the guy who comes in and sort of opens everything, you know. There's my
00:22:03.110 --> 00:22:10.820 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that's where she the can over there. I love that. Yeah, that's my that's my sweet spot. So i'm i'm I love
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.960 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): coming into an organization and shining a light on
00:22:15.430 --> 00:22:21.480 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the things that we haven't thought about before the things that we didn't know about before, and and watching people go.
00:22:21.550 --> 00:22:22.710 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Oh.
00:22:23.050 --> 00:22:25.340 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know. And then
00:22:25.700 --> 00:22:31.480 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that's the beginning. A beautiful beginning of a of what comes next. Conversation, dialogue, inquiry, learning.
00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:35.510 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know. Change that that's that's my spot.
00:22:35.550 --> 00:22:44.829 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yeah. And and shining the light into the shadowy corners into the shadowy places where people are resistant.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.920 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: do do you? When you work in these groups. I mean.
00:22:50.320 --> 00:23:06.460 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: what? What? How do you create these safe spaces? I mean listeners, what we you read this book and you read what people are saying about her. This woman is like the diversity inclusion, whisperer like on
00:23:06.470 --> 00:23:16.829 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: How do you set up these? Oh, and before I get out. Go on to that. I really want to make sure that in before you go on before you talk about how you create these safe spaces.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:34.209 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I I have heard recently a phrase that I I want to acknowledge, because I think people need, you know, need to, under here this people who are not getting exposed to these kinds of of gatherings and workshops and presentations. People are just.
00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:46.599 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you know, really. Finally, since George Floyd's murder are finally, you know, the light bulb is going off and wanting to dive into this work, but the phrase
00:23:46.700 --> 00:23:52.099 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: inclusion doesn't necessarily
00:23:52.940 --> 00:23:55.239 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: doesn't always lead to
00:23:55.470 --> 00:23:57.720 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: inclusion, leads to diversity.
00:23:58.860 --> 00:24:02.969 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: But diversity doesn't always lead to inclusion.
00:24:03.330 --> 00:24:09.929 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Oh, yeah, yeah, and you know. And that's in my learnings I get it
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:13.469 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: to speak to us about what that means.
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:31.710 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, I'd love to. So diversity is a fact, right? It's just about difference and inclusion is a feeling. It's the quality of of our experience, and if you think about feeling included, it's a yummy feeling it. Could, you know we feel valued, we feel acknowledged. We feel
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:35.680 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I'm like we belong. We feel loved all those yummy yummy things.
00:24:35.810 --> 00:24:50.139 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the challenges that the d and E. I are stuck together. And now we've added the I mean, it's not new, but it's it's now. We see it more and more, which i'm really happy about but they're stuck together.
00:24:50.410 --> 00:24:51.470 Equity.
00:24:51.780 --> 00:25:01.730 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yes, yeah. And I like to stick a b on the end. So, LED i'd be for the long. But you know, then we'll end up with a huge acronym that nobody will know all the words to but
00:25:01.860 --> 00:25:12.499 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the the the d and the I are, you know they They come together in this in this way, and then we get confused. We think, if we increase diversity, which is, who is there.
00:25:12.630 --> 00:25:30.009 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know, visible or invisible diversity, because we can't see all types of diversity, but by by increasing diversity we think that we've, you know Shazam. Now I have inclusion. We've done it, and we go off on our merry way, and diversity is the low hanging fruit, because, especially if you can see it, you can check it off.
00:25:30.100 --> 00:25:36.050 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I checked check. Did it? Did it? Did it? Look, we look better now. We look different now we look. There's more diversity here.
00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:46.529 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hey, Celebration! Celebration! What we miss in that is the inclusion piece, the feeling how people the experiences that people are having in our space. And when we don't
00:25:46.970 --> 00:25:49.010 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): go further than diversity.
00:25:49.050 --> 00:25:57.980 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): what often happens is that the the people who we have welcomed into our space, Don't feel included. Don't feel like they can be
00:25:58.110 --> 00:26:07.870 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): erez agmoni forthcoming with their ideas or perspectives. Don't feel like their ideas are welcome. Don't feel like people want to know what they have to say, or how their experiences are different, or
00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:21.809 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): they might hear it, but they don't do anything with it. And so inclusion is what we are building together, and I believe it's something that we we create together over time, inclusion, doesn't happen like that, we don't do inclusion, we create inclusion. And so.
00:26:22.100 --> 00:26:26.939 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): as we create spaces where people feel all those yummy things, you know.
00:26:26.990 --> 00:26:33.139 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): valued and acknowledged and cared for all that. All those things when we build those spaces.
00:26:33.310 --> 00:26:40.469 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): By raising our awareness by building community, by using what we learn about each other to create a sense of belonging to
00:26:40.510 --> 00:26:43.499 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the diversity will come because people feel good there.
00:26:43.530 --> 00:26:44.110 Right?
00:26:44.300 --> 00:26:46.170 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: It's circular.
00:26:46.260 --> 00:27:06.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah. But we have to start with. In my opinion we need to start with the inclusion. First. People don't like that because it doesn't. You can't tell that they're doing work, too. You can't see it right. You can feel it. You take the time, and yes, it's hard work. It's hard work, and it takes courageous conversations, and being triggered and stepping out of your comfort zone
00:27:06.090 --> 00:27:09.920 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and being willing to to to
00:27:10.710 --> 00:27:16.050 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: being challenged to, to, to really hear someone's truth.
00:27:16.180 --> 00:27:16.890 Yeah.
00:27:18.110 --> 00:27:28.249 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: And the payoffs for organizations. are huge.
00:27:29.060 --> 00:27:30.669 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: a happy
00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:35.550 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: staff or happy environment, and with
00:27:36.570 --> 00:27:42.520 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: what they're what they're putting out in the world, and what profits they're seeing. I would think it just would go through the roof.
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:53.489 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, there's so many ripple effects that come from somebody feeling good at work and and like they matter.
00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:57.300 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and it's far, far reaching ripple effects. Right?
00:27:58.570 --> 00:28:00.300 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: So
00:28:01.620 --> 00:28:09.970 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: okay, we have 2 min to break. So I am wondering if we have. I think we have enough time for this? and we can continue
00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:12.090 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: afterwards. But but
00:28:13.030 --> 00:28:22.000 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: how do you create these spaces, you know, Set set up to pain us a picture of how that how you move into that, if you can. One.
00:28:23.110 --> 00:28:28.270 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Okay, yeah, I will. 1 min the secret sauce carefully
00:28:28.550 --> 00:28:34.290 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): done. Drop the mic boom. That's it.
00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:39.370 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: That was perfect. How do you do that picture carefully?
00:28:39.580 --> 00:28:48.480 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Oh, I love it. Yeah, I mean, you know, for all of the things we just said, all of you know everyone well, and speaking as a you know
00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:51.170 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: people are just afraid
00:28:51.440 --> 00:29:05.179 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: to to do this, and that's what I want to start with when we come back after the break. We're going to talk about the vulnerability piece in these safe spaces and the vulnerability piece
00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:11.680 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: in, and Marie's incredible book when we come back on the edge of every day. Stay tuned.
00:29:13.230 --> 00:29:16.689 www.TalkRadio.nyc: Are you passionate about the conversation around racism?
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00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:49.479 www.TalkRadio.nyc: You're listening to talk radio and Yc: at Www: talk radio, dot and live C. Now broadcasting 24 h a day
00:30:57.040 --> 00:30:58.790 chipping around.
00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:01.110 Keep my brain.
00:31:01.190 --> 00:31:05.229 These are the days it never
00:31:06.230 --> 00:31:08.060 But oh.
00:31:09.250 --> 00:31:10.660 www.TalkRadio.nyc: on the
00:31:11.020 --> 00:31:30.849 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: of every day, and we are back with Anne Marie shrouder about to dive in talking about vulnerability, and setting up these safe spaces for people to learn about inclusion and diversity, diversity and belonging.
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:32.250 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and
00:31:32.370 --> 00:31:42.970 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: E. C.
00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:45.559 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: If you will.
00:31:46.220 --> 00:31:47.740 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: These conversations.
00:31:49.260 --> 00:32:01.549 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah. So I mean, I was serious with the carefully, because, of course it. It's an it's a navigation, right? And it's different every time, because the groups are different every time the people in those groups are different.
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.199 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): so so
00:32:04.620 --> 00:32:07.440 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I want to come in with compassion.
00:32:07.510 --> 00:32:21.869 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know we're at different parts of our journey, some for some people. This is the first time they've had a conversation about inclusion, or diversity, or race, or whatever we happen to be talking about, whether it's a narrow aspect of a diversity, or a broad aspect of diversity.
00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:33.590 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): So we want to have some compassion for folks who are feeling like oh, my gosh! And the other folks are like. Oh, again, you know, like, Why are we still talking about this and everything in between? Yeah,
00:32:34.170 --> 00:32:38.250 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and I, I feel like we we create those spaces
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:54.949 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): gently and slowly, and and we just, you know, one conversation at a time, and I like the words safer, because we can never 100% guarantee safety right when your version of safety is
00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:56.640 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: perhaps not mine.
00:32:56.670 --> 00:33:09.290 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, we are bound to make mistakes. And and here's the thing for me. Safety isn't about. Never make a mistake. Safety is about. How do I hold you
00:33:09.320 --> 00:33:11.049 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): when the mistake happens?
00:33:11.100 --> 00:33:22.269 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Right? How do I stay with you when the mistake happens. You know. How do I show up? And then the that that talks to your vulnerability? Right? That talks to You know how much
00:33:23.140 --> 00:33:24.830 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): What am I willing to share
00:33:24.860 --> 00:33:35.369 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and let you in, so that you can see a little bit more about who I am and and where i'm coming from, and and what are you willing to do on your end, so that I can see a little bit more, you know.
00:33:35.620 --> 00:33:38.540 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): acknowledged a little bit more about about who you are.
00:33:38.610 --> 00:33:46.020 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and sometimes spaces are super safe, because we're sort of skimming the surface, and then we drop
00:33:46.330 --> 00:33:52.999 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): a little bit deeper, and then it gets a little, you know it can. It can get a little bit like, oh.
00:33:53.050 --> 00:34:00.949 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): People get triggered and defensive. And
00:34:01.090 --> 00:34:11.820 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah, and we respond very differently to those things depending on our past experiences, and who we are in the world. Right? So it's a dance, Really.
00:34:12.060 --> 00:34:13.130 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): It's a dance.
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.169 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yeah, you know it. It makes me think about
00:34:18.980 --> 00:34:25.079 asking you. Well, i'll get to that later, asking you about. You know some of your your
00:34:26.530 --> 00:34:31.450 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: No, i'll ask you it now that the the thing that you love
00:34:31.469 --> 00:34:49.710 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: that you love most about this work, and what's for you personally? And what's the what has been the really rough edge of this work. I mean you know it. It doesn't take a jump to. I imagine that for you. But I don't want to assume that I You know you might just shock me with some of the things that that you
00:34:50.050 --> 00:34:53.400 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: feel your heart and make make you sad.
00:34:53.710 --> 00:34:54.669 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah.
00:34:55.350 --> 00:35:00.619 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the things that fill my heart are those moments when I can feel people opening?
00:35:00.910 --> 00:35:01.660 Yeah.
00:35:02.030 --> 00:35:04.799 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know something's landing.
00:35:05.100 --> 00:35:12.470 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): They're having a moment. They're realizing something new, something that somebody in there in their group has said has touched them.
00:35:13.190 --> 00:35:21.069 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know I love those. Those are amazing moments. and some of the edgy moments are, you know, when
00:35:21.240 --> 00:35:23.419 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): when people can't meet each other
00:35:23.780 --> 00:35:26.690 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): when they're just so in there
00:35:27.180 --> 00:35:28.330 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): version
00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:32.540 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): of whatever we're talking about that they cannot.
00:35:33.200 --> 00:35:38.079 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Even if they're trying, they they can't. They cannot get out of that and and meet
00:35:38.130 --> 00:35:40.989 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): us halfway right. Meet the other person halfway.
00:35:43.730 --> 00:35:50.079 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): yeah, example of that. That you feel comfortable sharing.
00:35:50.730 --> 00:35:52.289 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know I had.
00:35:52.620 --> 00:36:01.710 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I love this story because it's just so ridiculous that I can't even believe that it happened to me. But I was doing a session years ago, and and somebody just couldn't
00:36:01.740 --> 00:36:04.109 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): wrap their head around gender identity.
00:36:05.770 --> 00:36:19.039 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): could it not? Could not do it? And and it was a a small piece of what we I mean it wasn't a workshop on gender, or a presentation on generating. But we were talking about diversity and inclusion, and why it's important. And this gentleman just
00:36:19.190 --> 00:36:20.810 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): this gentleman said to me.
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:25.010 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): What if I want to? What if I want you to call me your Majesty? And I was like
00:36:25.140 --> 00:36:25.799 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): what?
00:36:27.450 --> 00:36:40.089 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And I I I just like speechless. I I did not know what to say. You know what if I want to be a horse. Hmm. And I and I. You know we engage
00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:42.109 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): what I was talking to him about.
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:50.210 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): You know how people feel and and what the space that we create to allow them to feel like they're acknowledged that they're important.
00:36:50.230 --> 00:36:56.499 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and and I it just it couldn't it. Was it wasn't landing for him, and and he. It was his colleagues that said.
00:36:56.600 --> 00:37:02.550 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hey, you know, Remember why we started this company? Because there are some people that didn't want to work with us like.
00:37:02.710 --> 00:37:03.769 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): What are you doing?
00:37:04.100 --> 00:37:08.679 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And and in the end we had to agree to disagree, because the whole conversation would have
00:37:08.730 --> 00:37:12.249 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): focused on on this. But he he just he couldn't get it.
00:37:12.370 --> 00:37:22.049 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Bless his heart, he could not get it that day. Maybe maybe the next day would not or would not right or to the point. I don't think it's. You know it.
00:37:22.230 --> 00:37:26.659 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yeah, just because you don't agree with it. Doesn't mean you can't grasp it.
00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:41.849 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): or just because it's sort of confusing doesn't mean you can't grasp it. But I I really think, Sandra, that sometimes we just cannot like. There's something that stops us from being that open on that particular day.
00:37:41.860 --> 00:37:55.329 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: so we can hear something different that you. That's true. I would agree with you, you know I just I I I don't want to endow people with skills at the moment that they don't have but yes, I would agree with you.
00:37:55.570 --> 00:38:02.059 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: But but the vulnerability piece also that I want to weave into. This is the vulnerability that you had in your own book.
00:38:02.300 --> 00:38:09.750 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you know. And I just was like, Damn yeah, I I, if I ask people to be vulnerable, then I'm just going to do it in my book.
00:38:09.830 --> 00:38:27.389 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and and it was beautiful. And, Marie, thank you so for folks. This is not a spoiler. It jumps right out right at the beginning, you know she's it's a this glorious weaving, a hybrid weaving of teachings about Dni
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:35.910 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and Race versus racism, which we'll touch on, and and all of the work that she does
00:38:35.970 --> 00:38:49.040 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: with her own personal stories on her growth through either, or being biracial and multicultural, and her heartfelt stories and
00:38:49.150 --> 00:38:50.750 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: her poetry.
00:38:52.590 --> 00:39:02.640 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and it just flows so beautifully, and my husband, who read the book and loved it, and it's going to pass it along into his agencies.
00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:13.880 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you know he he loved. He wanted to know if some of your text inspired Some of the poetry or some of the poetry, inspired
00:39:14.050 --> 00:39:25.340 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: the some of the text and and the the creative process of that choice of of of weaving that in. Was it a creative choice? Or was it, as you said, completely about your heart?
00:39:26.090 --> 00:39:29.890 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, maybe well
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:48.210 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): definitely about my heart. You know poetry is how my heart speaks, and they're succinct, and I feel for me. They they're to the point. No fluff like that's what it is, and so I didn't want to get lost in the Flowery, you know. Writing about something to the point where you lose lose the point.
00:39:48.390 --> 00:39:52.580 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the poems are have had been written
00:39:52.720 --> 00:39:55.370 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): already, many of them years before.
00:39:55.450 --> 00:40:14.419 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and I really toyed with, you know. Should I just write a book of poetry and leave them by themselves, and then do this business a book, you know, by itself, and and I sometimes so wonder about that. Did I do the right thing? but in the end example of both. And exactly.
00:40:14.430 --> 00:40:18.620 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): It's the edge of every day. Exactly. So in the end.
00:40:18.950 --> 00:40:36.439 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): No, you go ahead. Yeah. In the end. I wanted it to be a meaningful book, and if you don't like poetry, or you don't want to read them, don't read them. But for me it it allowed me to say, really say what I wanted to say. and then this: the the stories.
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:57.120 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the personal stories that I that I wrote around those gave context right, and it really moved the poetry, you know. Sometimes it it it doesn't always that when people include things like that, and in their books it doesn't necessarily always move the story if you will forward, and in
00:40:57.130 --> 00:41:00.419 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: every instance your poetry did.
00:41:00.450 --> 00:41:05.929 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and I couldn't wait to read it when I got to, you know, as opposed to sometimes you.
00:41:06.100 --> 00:41:12.690 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: i'll admit I want to skip over the poetry and keep reading, and then come back to the poetry yours was. It was
00:41:14.060 --> 00:41:21.439 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: absolutely beautiful. so we have enough time a race versus
00:41:21.820 --> 00:41:23.009 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: racism.
00:41:23.200 --> 00:41:27.489 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I I won't. I'll let you say it.
00:41:28.680 --> 00:41:35.670 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Well race as as many of us now know more than, and those of you who have not heard this.
00:41:35.900 --> 00:41:39.930 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, hang on to your seat, everyone.
00:41:40.160 --> 00:41:41.950 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Somebody made it up
00:41:42.530 --> 00:41:48.919 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): complete construct, complete construct. Yeah. So so I I
00:41:49.890 --> 00:42:02.059 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah. So because somebody made it up it's it's it's not a real thing, and and we've many of us have been taught that it is you know, in in various ways, people. Well, I think
00:42:02.410 --> 00:42:06.649 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): lately I would like to think that some people. Haven't been lately.
00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:25.309 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Well, that's but very lately, you know. Okay. And those people are gonna grow up and run the world right like my child, for example right? She's 10, and we talk about it so she's. She's not growing up with the idea that there are different races of people. She is growing up with the idea that there is human beings within this case. Different skin colors right right.
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:27.889 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): but but because of that construct
00:42:29.250 --> 00:42:30.930 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know, created with.
00:42:31.790 --> 00:42:46.260 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and and the ripple effects of that contract. we have racism, because what that construct did was then categorize people by skin tone and give some people more value, lighter skin, and some people less value. Darker skin and
00:42:46.280 --> 00:43:04.039 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): racism was born, and so as much as race as a construct. Racism is very real and impacts us all impact all of us, every single one of us right white people, black people, and every color in between, just it impacts us differently. Some people are impacted in the
00:43:04.050 --> 00:43:09.540 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): positive way because of racism, and some people are impacted in a negative way because of racism because of the
00:43:09.620 --> 00:43:14.169 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the amount of melanin we have, or don't have in our skin, and what we make that mean
00:43:14.230 --> 00:43:18.240 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): by virtue of this social construct created a few 100 years ago.
00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:23.040 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and and and the soul crushing
00:43:23.200 --> 00:43:36.689 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: lie of it, that the that that that the certain color is at the top of this value list right, and what you have to soul crush
00:43:37.310 --> 00:43:39.330 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: to maintain that myth.
00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:40.669 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hmm.
00:43:40.740 --> 00:43:41.930 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Absolutely.
00:43:41.970 --> 00:43:45.050 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: So I I came across this quote
00:43:45.890 --> 00:43:48.910 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: on a website, I'm. I'm.
00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:52.889 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: It's also the name of a
00:43:53.270 --> 00:43:54.149 a
00:43:55.250 --> 00:44:02.720 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: How do you see your country? Documentary? Thank you. There's the word deconstructing Karen
00:44:02.770 --> 00:44:14.500 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: is the name of it. brilliant, deconstructing Karen, and this is from their Instagram page. And it said, the cost of white privilege and white supremacy for white people.
00:44:14.630 --> 00:44:21.320 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Nothing short of trading humanity for the illusion of comfort.
00:44:21.350 --> 00:44:22.549 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hmm.
00:44:23.240 --> 00:44:27.740 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: So spot on just so. Spot on. And
00:44:28.230 --> 00:44:36.509 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: yeah. So that's a resource. Everyone you can get. You can watch that documentary, I believe on Hulu
00:44:36.530 --> 00:44:40.729 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and I think that if you go to
00:44:41.600 --> 00:44:50.820 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: deconstructing Karen on Instagram, there is going to be a group that's going to show it in the fall
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:59.569 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: for free but you're gonna watch it together, and and we discuss it in this group. And you know
00:44:59.580 --> 00:45:10.919 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: again, just continue to for white people in particular to understand where their bias is to understand where their blinders are to understand the work that we need to do.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:15.499 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): to move this conversation in this work and this dismantling of racism.
00:45:16.220 --> 00:45:16.970 Forward
00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:20.350 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: with that, said, we have to go to a break
00:45:20.550 --> 00:45:23.449 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: when we come back.
00:45:23.980 --> 00:45:34.429 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: What are we going to talk about? We're going to hear about what's what's your leading edge? What's next for you? How people can find you and
00:45:36.790 --> 00:45:38.390 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and all that good stuff
00:45:38.590 --> 00:45:43.929 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: when we come back with Ann Murray shrouded on the edge of everyday. Stay, tuned
00:45:47.090 --> 00:46:10.950 www.TalkRadio.nyc: everybody. It's Tommy D, the nonprofit sector connected coming at you by my adding each week here on talk radio that Ny. Z. I hosted program at the focus. Nonprofits impact us each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: each week at 10 am. Eastern standard time until 11 am. It's from standard time right here on talk radio, Dot: Nyc.
00:46:12.940 --> 00:46:27.169 www.TalkRadio.nyc: Yeah. Thanksgiving boy. You may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life? Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness?
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00:47:17.980 --> 00:47:27.870 You're listening to talk radio. Nyc: at Ww: Talk Radio Andyc. Now broadcasting 24 h a day
00:47:33.510 --> 00:47:35.219 chipping around.
00:47:35.590 --> 00:47:37.569 Kick my brain to the ground.
00:47:37.640 --> 00:47:38.890 These are the day.
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:41.750 is it
00:47:42.680 --> 00:47:44.540 but it
00:47:45.730 --> 00:47:47.250 www.TalkRadio.nyc: on the edge
00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:49.220 every day.
00:47:49.250 --> 00:47:51.569 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and we're back with Anne Marie shrouded.
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:59.279 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: What is your part in creating a world where all people feel a sense of belonging
00:48:00.120 --> 00:48:05.499 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: well, and I love. I love that question out of. In the top of her book
00:48:05.540 --> 00:48:07.529 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I have a quote here that I want to read.
00:48:07.780 --> 00:48:09.319 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: It's by Neil Gamin.
00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:11.899 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and in it
00:48:12.160 --> 00:48:18.419 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: really relevant I mean it's relevant for the New Year, and we're we're still wishing people Happy New Year, and starting our
00:48:18.510 --> 00:48:24.800 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: thinking of our intentions. But I think that it's really apropos for the work that you do emery, and I know you're going to love this.
00:48:25.780 --> 00:48:28.439 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I hope that in this year to come
00:48:28.580 --> 00:48:30.389 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you make mistakes.
00:48:30.890 --> 00:48:43.640 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: because if you are making mistakes, then you are making new things, trying new things, learning, living, pushing yourself, changing yourself, changing the world.
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:49.760 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: You're doing things you've never done before. And more importantly, you're doing something.
00:48:49.940 --> 00:48:54.379 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: So that's my wish for you and all of us, and my wish for myself
00:48:54.780 --> 00:49:02.510 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: make new mistakes, make glorious amazing mistakes. Make mistakes. Nobody's ever made before
00:49:02.540 --> 00:49:04.620 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Don't freeze. Don't. Stop.
00:49:04.710 --> 00:49:09.329 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: don't worry that it isn't good enough, or it isn't perfect.
00:49:09.510 --> 00:49:11.129 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: whatever it is.
00:49:11.540 --> 00:49:18.310 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: art or love, or work, or family, or life, or diversity or inclusion.
00:49:18.430 --> 00:49:24.839 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: whatever it is, you're scared of doing. Do it. Make your mistakes next year and forever
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.120 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): of it. Yeah, Pretty powerful.
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:30.540 Yeah, very
00:49:32.970 --> 00:49:34.100 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: yeah. Go ahead.
00:49:34.200 --> 00:49:40.980 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I was going to say. People worry about making mistakes all the time in this work. Right? What if I say the wrong thing? What if I do the wrong thing.
00:49:43.550 --> 00:49:49.029 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that's life, folks and I think for me
00:49:49.100 --> 00:49:52.619 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): what I what I always tell people that i'm working with is
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:56.219 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): It's not just about the mistake. It's what we do after
00:49:56.340 --> 00:49:59.429 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): It's what we do with it. Yeah, right?
00:49:59.470 --> 00:50:02.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): It's how I connect with you and how I show up.
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:04.149 Yeah.
00:50:06.170 --> 00:50:07.639 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Well.
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:08.799 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: so
00:50:11.370 --> 00:50:12.700 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: what
00:50:13.580 --> 00:50:14.540 I mean?
00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:17.569 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: We've talked about
00:50:17.730 --> 00:50:24.180 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: the clients and the workshops. Why, why did you write this book? For whom is this book for?
00:50:26.250 --> 00:50:35.069 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Well, I put leaders in the subtitle, because I wanted leaders in particular to read it. I think when you work at an organization, if the leadership
00:50:35.180 --> 00:50:39.680 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): is open, if the leadership understands that this is something to lean into.
00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:47.840 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Then it's it's more likely to fly more likely to be become part of the DNA than organization, and so
00:50:47.900 --> 00:50:57.099 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): from a client perspective. you know, I really hope that leaders pick it up and and sort of take a minute to do some self reflection as they're reading it
00:50:57.540 --> 00:50:59.089 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): right? And and
00:50:59.310 --> 00:51:08.029 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): that's why there's the the piece the business piece in there. But there's also the personal piece again to to give it context. But I really hope that
00:51:08.260 --> 00:51:09.639 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): everybody picks up.
00:51:09.670 --> 00:51:15.269 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Of course, you know, because we're all leaders in our lives in some way, shape or form.
00:51:15.490 --> 00:51:23.239 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): we all have people responsible for dismantling racism, and all of us are responsible. Yeah, all of us. And so
00:51:23.450 --> 00:51:40.380 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know, I said to you before, man, Did I make a mistakes that I've done the Poetry Book by itself to make it more accessible? You know. Should I reprint it without the subtitle, because maybe only leaders are picking it up. I don't know, but I think it'll find its way. I hope it'll find its way to the people that are ready
00:51:40.610 --> 00:51:41.990 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): to explore
00:51:42.130 --> 00:51:51.990 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the role that race is played in their lives, whether they're white, black, or you know all of the glorious colors in between. Quote unquote
00:51:54.130 --> 00:51:57.329 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I think it's a conversation we all need to have.
00:51:58.160 --> 00:52:04.029 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Well, and I think I think the whole understanding of leadership is shifting, I think.
00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:06.429 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and that's why the poetry is. So.
00:52:07.540 --> 00:52:09.640 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I mean, people are
00:52:10.470 --> 00:52:14.680 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: are really leaders now have to
00:52:14.930 --> 00:52:17.079 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: are embracing. Know thyself
00:52:18.520 --> 00:52:23.699 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: in a much deeper way. yeah. The old style, the either, or
00:52:23.870 --> 00:52:26.459 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: style of leadership is over.
00:52:26.720 --> 00:52:31.170 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Yeah, it's falling away, and it's being replaced by
00:52:32.100 --> 00:52:39.389 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: leaders who are embracing this and and and people who are to your point stepping into their leadership in
00:52:40.100 --> 00:52:41.780 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: a variety of ways.
00:52:42.550 --> 00:52:45.120 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: me with a podcast
00:52:45.260 --> 00:52:46.939 You know
00:52:47.140 --> 00:52:49.499 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): lots of different ways of of leading
00:52:49.590 --> 00:52:50.770 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Absolutely
00:52:51.770 --> 00:52:53.509 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: so.
00:52:55.970 --> 00:53:00.660 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: What are you personally? What edge are you working on personally right now?
00:53:01.180 --> 00:53:03.469 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Navigating right now
00:53:03.500 --> 00:53:05.329 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): so many edges?
00:53:09.010 --> 00:53:12.329 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know what I what I still grapple with?
00:53:12.590 --> 00:53:14.819 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): is
00:53:15.380 --> 00:53:16.839 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Am I black enough.
00:53:17.180 --> 00:53:26.960 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you know. Still, Still, even though i'm i'm i'm holding this space. Of course you are. We we do the work and we spiral. Yeah.
00:53:27.140 --> 00:53:36.940 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yeah, and I, you know rare. Recently had somebody say to me, how dare you do anti black racism work. You're when you don't identify as black, and it just really took by breath away
00:53:38.040 --> 00:53:40.630 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): for more than a moment. I was just like.
00:53:41.470 --> 00:53:48.600 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): you know, so I am. My edge is is reminding myself of my worth
00:53:48.710 --> 00:53:53.090 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): as a human being who has a very particular experience in this body this time
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:59.630 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): right, and and the work that I can do from this place and in this place.
00:53:59.720 --> 00:54:05.580 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): and and how I, you know who I can touch through this work, and it's not going to be everybody
00:54:06.240 --> 00:54:15.480 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): right, because we're going to resonate or not. Resonate and for sure i'm not going to have the same experience as somebody who is black for sure.
00:54:17.390 --> 00:54:18.419 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): And
00:54:19.250 --> 00:54:29.049 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): the experiences that I have in many cases allow for a conversation that I am grateful to be able to have with people about race.
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:30.009 Yeah.
00:54:30.520 --> 00:54:31.990 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: very powerful.
00:54:32.020 --> 00:54:36.620 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: You embody the edge of every day, and both, and
00:54:37.610 --> 00:54:43.409 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you are your walking teachings. It's exquisite, absolutely exquisite.
00:54:44.210 --> 00:54:47.450 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: So we can find you and Marie shrouded
00:54:47.700 --> 00:54:50.519 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: at Ann Marie Shroudercom.
00:54:50.710 --> 00:54:53.790 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Yes, very creative.
00:54:53.850 --> 00:54:59.200 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and all of and I love your your website. All of your
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:01.950 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: wonderful team is there, and
00:55:02.020 --> 00:55:08.840 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): most of them not all of them, most of them. Some have chosen not to have a picture up there, but most of them
00:55:08.900 --> 00:55:14.550 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: Well, I just loved your website and and the the
00:55:14.690 --> 00:55:25.219 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): your book. You can find that. Oh, wait! No! You have a separate website for your book. Right?
00:55:25.520 --> 00:55:26.410 Okay?
00:55:26.520 --> 00:55:43.120 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: And they if you are in need of hiring and Marie for speaking, or for either one of her incredible courses. You can do that as well. You can read about that on her website as well.
00:55:43.230 --> 00:55:46.489 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: And Marie, thank you so so much
00:55:46.630 --> 00:55:48.839 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: for sharing your wisdom
00:55:49.010 --> 00:55:53.560 and your warmth, and your vulnerability, and your creativity, and your
00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:57.300 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: mentoring all of us through this conversation.
00:55:57.560 --> 00:56:00.939 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hmm. Thank you, Sandra, for having me. It's been a pleasure.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:06.530 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and before I thank all of you out there for listening.
00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:13.099 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: I would like you and Marie to. Is there anything you want to close with with our our listeners.
00:56:15.580 --> 00:56:17.060 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Hmm.
00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:21.380 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): I would just encourage everybody to
00:56:21.500 --> 00:56:22.629 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): pause.
00:56:24.850 --> 00:56:26.080 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Just a pause.
00:56:26.750 --> 00:56:28.969 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): Here again listen more.
00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:30.540 Annemarie Shrouder (she/her): This pause.
00:56:32.860 --> 00:56:33.839 I love that
00:56:35.510 --> 00:56:43.260 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: power of the pause of silence and of deep listening, deep, active, listening. Amen. Thank you
00:56:43.510 --> 00:56:49.360 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: and to our listeners. Thank you for spending this time with us. Remember
00:56:49.560 --> 00:56:53.140 Sandra Bargman | The Edge of Everyday: you are always at the edge of the miraculous.
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